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Old 10-20-2013, 10:51 AM   #1
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Default Top Surgery for Butches: Have you thought about it?

I saw the discussion in the other thread and I wanted to join in but I agree it might be better here.

Iíve struggled with this issue for years. I know having top surgery would align my body with my vision of it. Itís always a surprise when I look in the mirror. I tossed around breast reduction but every time I think about it I know my idea of reduction is removal. I see myself as a woman, I identify as female and I use the pronoun she. But I donít see myself as a woman who has breasts.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:07 AM   #2
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Yes I have. I too have thought about breast reduction, but I always go back to preferring chest surgery. I am a stone butch and I think it would be very freeing sexually and physically (in terms of aligning my body) for me to not have breasts. It has nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." I just do not see myself as having breasts or wanting them touched while being intimate.

I am a stone butch, female and woman. I am She and comfortable having a female body. My butch cock is a natural extension of myself and I do not like having breasts. Everything else about being female I am comfortable with.

They also feel quite top heavy to me, like I am out of balance. Also, breasts do not work well with men's shirts, which is what I wear.

The only hesitation I would have is I do not want to pass as male. I do not think I would even with chest surgery. I do get called Sir quite a bit, but it is only for brief moments for the most part. Children often think I am male. I think I look like a butch and would even without breasts. I am not sure. I know a lot of people will look down to a butch's breasts to figure that out, which of course is quite uncomfortable.

Other thing I wonder about is age and also not being at the weight I want to be before surgery. Dapper in the other thread said he didn't think age would be an issue, so that was good to know.

One other thing I don't know if there would be any issues with a surgeon if you are not FTM. Is there anything they would need to know or understand. I figure the surgery would be the same whether it was part of a transition process/someone identifying male or for someone like me but I really am not sure. I haven't ever looked into surgeons because I do not have the money, but I do think about having chest surgery a lot.

I am glad Dapper posted hys info in the Trans zone and thank you Miss Tick for starting this thread.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:33 AM   #3
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BullDog mentioned wondering if there would be an issue with a surgeon if one was not FTM. I too have wondered that and also never checked into it because I would never be able to afford to pay for an elective surgery. I have thought about the medical options that might let a doctor sign off on it as it would be free in Montreal. But breast reduction, if I could convince the doctor the girls gave me a back ache or something, is all I could ever come up with.

I keep thinking I've made my peace with them but then something happens to trigger me and I'm back to hating them. I vacillate between hatred and tolerance. Poor things never get any love from me. Or anyone else if I can help it. I am not stone but I really can't stand to have them touched. Well at the last moment, but the timing has to be right on the money. Including them in the process is just a lot of effort, best to forget about them.

I also feel guilty about not being able to reconcile my feelings about my breasts. I think it's easy to confuse it for wanting to be male. I don't want to be male. For me it has nothing to do with not wanting to be feminized either. I am perfectly happy being a woman as long as I can be the kind of woman that I am comfortable with. And that kind of woman just doesn't like her breasts. They spoil the look of my clothes sometimes. I get all dressed up and think I must look pretty awesome and then I look in the mirror and it's like a slap in the face. I'm like what the fuck are they doing there.

I doubt I will ever have top surgery unless I win the lottery or something. But I do think about how much more comfortable I would be in my body if I could.
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:15 PM   #4
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I have thought about it but then I think about my future life as a parent and I want to breastfeed so there's where I stop thinking about it.
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:15 PM   #5
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I am considering breast reduction, (not chest surgery) for neck, shoulder, back issues.

I say breast reduction because I am a female butch who does not have congruency issues between my gender and my body. I like my parts just fine.

Insurance does cover the surgery for medical reasons like the above, or GERD, or familiar breast cancer and such. It is worth investigating your insurance for coverage, but, be sure to focus on medical not body issues.




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Old 10-20-2013, 01:26 PM   #6
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I am a female butch who does not have congruency issues between my gender and my body. I like my parts just fine.
That must be nice. I have tried not to have congruency issues because it doesnít match my idea of who I am as a butch lesbian feminist who is, always has been and always will be a woman aligned with other women in struggle against patriarchy and misogyny. But I canít deny that my vision of who I am when I imagine myself does not have female breasts.

I like the rest of my body parts just fine though. But the breasts just don't cut it for me. And they often spoil my fashion statement. Making myself put up with them is about the best I can do. I will never be happy with them.

The feeling is a little similar to the one I have surrounding Miss Tick, the name I chose when I joined the Planet. I didnít think I wanted to use darkgazer, the name I used on the dash site and I thought it might be good for my woman aligned feminist conscience to have a clearly female nic. It sounded good on paper, but I cringe every time I see it and realize hey, thatís me. I donít like that I feel that way. I donít like the implications because I donít believe what is indicated by those implications is a reality for me, even if it seems to be implied (I wrote it and even I am having trouble following this sentence.)

Yet, if there are no implied implications then there is no logical reason for those feelings. Yet here they are.

Wishing for congruity but not even getting logic.

I am a woman, a she, a female and happy to be so, but I donít like my breasts and Iím not crazy about my name on the planet. Feelings donít have to make sense. But for the foreseeable future I will keep them both. Or should I say keep them all since itís two breasts and one name?
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Old 10-20-2013, 02:15 PM   #7
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as a child, i didn't want those things at all! i wanted to be shirtless, happy, and playing with boys. i often thought i'd make a better boy than girl. it took me a lot of time to sort it all out. and then i learned that i am my kind of girl/woman. i'm ok with having breasts. just not this size lol. i am for sure having a reduction some time next year. and that will make me happy to have breasts, not just ok.

but i totally understand what you all are saying. i hope that you all can get what you want. truly. from the bottom of my heart and to the top and sides and all the in betweens, i wish you all happiness.

excellent topic. thank you, Miss Tick.

if i may ask, you won't hurt my feelings if it's private, ... why don't you change your nic name?
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Old 10-20-2013, 02:28 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by BullDog View Post
One other thing I don't know if there would be any issues with a surgeon if you are not FTM. Is there anything they would need to know or understand. I figure the surgery would be the same whether it was part of a transition process/someone identifying male or for someone like me but I really am not sure. I haven't ever looked into surgeons because I do not have the money, but I do think about having chest surgery a lot.

I am glad Dapper posted hys info in the Trans zone and thank you Miss Tick for starting this thread.
Bulldog,

Just to pass along some information. Most surgeons continue to follow the WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) standards of care, for this surgery. It does not matter how one defines, they would just need a referral from a therapist OR a primary care physician. In September, 2013 the standards changed and one does not have to be FTM, they only have to have "gender dysphoria" (exactly what people are talking about here...a part of their body is not congruent with their birth sex).

This is a wonderful change.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/...ull%20Book.pdf

(page 59 for the criteria for top surgery).

---------------

To respond to your other musing, yes, the surgery would be the same regardless as to how one identifies, but you can have the surgeon adjust some things. For example, I saw a youtube video of a genderqueer person who requested the surgeon make their areolas (the pigmented skin around the nipple), larger than a surgeon typically would for this surgery. Males have smaller areolas than females, and this person wanted their chest to look more androgynous so they requested, and received larger nipples (but, smaller than they originally had, as they would look too big). Additionally, men's nipples are placed more to the sides of the chest than females, which are more centered. With the double incision surgery (the one most people get), the nipples are removed, resized, and then placed on the chest. You could ask your surgeon to place the nipples in a more "female", centered position on the chest. I suppose it depends on the surgeon, but the two I talked with, were open to the above adjustments from what I have seen on others. Every person's chest is different, so one would need to meet with the surgeon to learn what is possible for their particular chest.

I hope the above is helpful and not too long winded!
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Old 10-20-2013, 03:31 PM   #9
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Hi..I've had a breast reduction ..you can go down to a size A.. My insurance paid for it cause I had some issues with back and neck pain amd found out I had arthritis is my back..but also the indentation on your shoulders from the bra straps or the oily soon underneath that alot of "gifted" women have are also held into account. Make an appointment and ask about a "reduction" because of your back. Mine was medically approved and I got to choose what size I wanted to be.
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Old 10-20-2013, 04:19 PM   #10
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When I was 20 and long before I had it all figured out, I went to a plastic surgeon and told him I didn't want mine anymore. He said he would almost remove them but wouldn't completely since I was so young. I was happy with the results and I'm glad I had the nerve to go for what I wanted.
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Old 10-20-2013, 04:35 PM   #11
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Hope it is ok for a femme to respond.

My long-term ex had a quite large bust. She hated it because she was butch and because she had grooves in her shoulders from straps.

She found a plastic surgeon that would do it and because of the size, grooves and back issues; had a reduction down to virtually an A--.

She never wore a bra again and they appeared virtually non-existent.

She was extremely happy with the surgery and it was covered by insurance.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:06 PM   #12
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Hope it is ok for a femme to respond.
It's awesome for a femme to respond.

I don't like to close myself off from thoughts and ideas. Everyone is always welcome in any thread I start.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:19 PM   #13
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if i may ask, you won't hurt my feelings if it's private, ... why don't you change your nic name?
You certainly may ask. Unfortunately I don't think I have an answer that makes sense. It has to do with not feeding into my feelings surrounding a feminine sounding title like Miss for myself. I know I chose it but I didn't expect to feel the way I do. I thought it was a cool name. And I still do, but not for me. Why I won't change it is because I am trying to move past these unfortunate feelings.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and I over think everything.
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Old 10-20-2013, 06:46 PM   #14
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You certainly may ask. Unfortunately I don't think I have an answer that makes sense. It has to do with not feeding into my feelings surrounding a feminine sounding title like Miss for myself. I know I chose it but I didn't expect to feel the way I do. I thought it was a cool name. And I still do, but not for me. Why I won't change it is because I am trying to move past these unfortunate feelings.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and I over think everything.
Miss Tick- I respect your choices. They're yours to make. That said, I'm sorry you don't feel free to choose a name that you feel would suit you better. Butch women can and do honour their femaleness and females/women everywhere in many ways. Butch women have been at the forefront in our feminist struggles. The increases we've had in gender equality, though not nearly large enough, would not have come about at all without the tireless efforts of butch women who are dedicated feminists. That could be considered selfless activism since the benefits of those moves towards equality often don't reach butches who face a higher level of discrimination just because of how they present. Moreover, butches continually find themselves in harm's way simply by walking in the world as unabashed masculine women in a culture where hyper-femininity in women is overvalued, and the mere existence of female masculinity is considered a direct threat to men. By walking out in the world as the masculine woman that you are, you give women everywhere more freedom to present in the ways that feel right for them. Would I be overcooking this if I said that I think your existence is a daily service to women everywhere? I do feel that way, even if it seems corny.

I think you have enough trouble. This environment at bfp is supposed to be fun and welcoming. Please consider making yourself more comfortable. No one will judge you for it.

Unless you start calling yourself Dudley Do-Right. Then we'll all laugh.
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Old 10-20-2013, 06:52 PM   #15
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I am happy femmes are participating in here as well. I would also love to have any trans guys or anyone else here who wants to share their experiences, info or insights with butches considering top surgery.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:21 PM   #16
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as a femme i would be completely supportive if my partner chose to have top surgery.. also if she does not.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:59 PM   #17
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Unless you start calling yourself Dudley Do-Right. Then we'll all laugh.
Thank you for everything you said. i really appreciate it.

You're right it is supposed to be fun and welcoming. I should allow myself to be more comfortable. I'll probably go back to darkgazer. Or maybe I'll come up with something new.

But Dudley Do-Right is off the table.
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:09 PM   #18
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But Dudley Do-Right is off the table.
Well, I'm glad that's settled.
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:23 PM   #19
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a bold-assed maximus
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Originally Posted by Miss Tick View Post
You certainly may ask. Unfortunately I don't think I have an answer that makes sense. It has to do with not feeding into my feelings surrounding a feminine sounding title like Miss for myself. I know I chose it but I didn't expect to feel the way I do. I thought it was a cool name. And I still do, but not for me. Why I won't change it is because I am trying to move past these unfortunate feelings.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and I over think everything.


i like Boston. i'm going to start calling you Boston. yeah, and you better answer! LOL
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:30 PM   #20
Cin
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Originally Posted by macele View Post
i like Boston. i'm going to start calling you Boston. yeah, and you better answer! LOL
LOL! That's funny cause years ago when I first posted on the dash site, like 1999 I think it was, I had the nic boston butch. I wandered away and when I came back somebody else had it. I live in Canada now, but Montreal Butch just doesn't have the same ring to it. I'm thinking maybe Titty Baby.

Sorry for the derail.
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