Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Her partner uses that term. Often I defer to what my partner prefers. He does not like the term FtM and so I don't use it. He does use the term transmasculine. Depending on who you are talking to it can change.

I do not doubt or argue that the language is transphobic to you. All I can tell you is that there is a whole lot of yucky stuff that swirls around in one's head when your partner is changing day to day. Working through transphobia is one of the things I have done over the past three years. And it has come up in the most surprising ways. My partner is also Latino and I have had to work through my own racism.

I'm really sorry that this feels bad to you and that you do not feel heard. That is a crummy feeling and not my intent at all. I guess I am feeling kind of cranky and needing to carve out my little space. That should not be to the exclusion of you or other transpeople and for that I apologize.

I still give her the benefit of the doubt though.

Thanks for the reply julie. I can understand not using certain terms or using certain terms that your husband doesn't like/likes when referring to him. But what about other trans people? That's why I don't like her use of the word "tranny" here. If she were referring to her husband, then I would understand. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why the word that one uses for one's significant other needs to be assumed for other trans people (especially when it's a well-known slur)? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

[blush]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This article was actually posted in the Trans News thread: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...?t=2287&page=6

Personally, I found it really offensive. It's one thing to express your emotions over your partners transition. It's another thing to make these sorts of really transphobic statement. And another brilliant example where the existence of transphobia in the world is almost mocked. Where even pointing out transphobia is turned around on the trans person who points it out, as if they are in the wrong for pointing out oppressive language. If someone calls me a "rah rah tranny person" I'm going to be fucking offended. In fact, if anyone calls me a "tranny" I'm going to be fucking offended, I don't care who you are.

I'll post my reply from that thread here:

While I do agree that partners should be heard when they voice their concerns over a partner transitioning, there are ways to say it without reducing the word transphobia to something that trans people throw at people at random and framing trans people who call out transphobia when they see it as the "bad guys" in the situation.

I definitely do see transphobia in comments like these:





It actually reminds me a lot of straight people's reactions when queer folks call them out on homophobia. Or people who make sexist comments when they're called out on their sexism. Yet somehow when it comes to trans people, some queer folks can't see how their behaviour mirrors that of those who, in turn, oppress them.

What does "Rah-Rah Tranny people" (seriously, if you're trans and identify as a "tranny", that's cool, but a cis person using the word "tranny" to refer to trans people in general is offensive, in the same way as a white person using the "N" word or a straight person calling gay men "fags") even mean? Apparently they are "politically fueled"? Again, what does that mean? Cause to me a "politically fueled" trans person is someone who fights for their own rights in a society where they don't have equal rights with the rest of the LGB spectrum. In the country the author is from, for example...

Like I said above, I have no problems with partners going through their process of coming to understand or accept their partner. But I feel the author made some comments that were transphobic (zomg, I must be a "rah rah tranny person"). I understand the frustration if the community she is a part of tells her that it's not acceptable to voice her feelings and grief over her partner's transition. I don't think that's good of them to do at all, and it's not something I would support. On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.

Ender, you make some excellent thinking points in this post. It's never up to the majority to decide what is offensive to the minority.

[Deborah]

I guess I have become confused as to the purpose of this thread...

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Thanks for the reply julie. I can understand not using certain terms or using certain terms that your husband doesn't like/likes when referring to him. But what about other trans people? That's why I don't like her use of the word "tranny" here. If she were referring to her husband, then I would understand. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why the word that one uses for one's significant other needs to be assumed for other trans people (especially when it's a well-known slur)? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

But see maybe she is just learning and then uses the terms her husband is comfortable with and is told those are not ok. It is a learning curve.

We know a transman who has limited experience in the trans community and zero experience in the queer community. Wow does he put his foot in in sometimes!!! I would never tell him he was homophobic or transphobic. I just explain how others might hear that remark.

So no you are not misunderstanding me. I don't have the answers in this case. My partner sure would not put up with me calling him or anyone else a tranny. We don't know how it works for these folks.

All I am really trying to say is that partners worry A LOT about being transphobic. I wonder is this the transition I am responding to or just some stuff of my partner's? Is my reaction transphobic? And sometimes it just might be!!! I worry much less about this nowadays. I know what is ok for my partner and for the community. But I learned by screwing up!!!

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

In the instances where I quoted her using the words "rah rah tranny people" and talking about "the politically fueled" (presumably the same as the "rah rah tranny people"), are not her talking about her husband. She and her husband can work through their marriage issues all they like, but she is not referring to her husband in these comments. Her husband is not "rah rah tranny people" or "politically fueled" "tranny people." Working through her marriage and her husbands transition does not make it ok for her to refer to other trans people as "rah rah trannies," or reduce transphobia to something trans people say to make cis people feel guilty.

Ah okay got it. She had altercations with other transmen. I missed that. Sorry.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I don't really care if he identifies as a "tranny" or not. Many trans people don't and she is referring to "rah rah tranny people," not her husband. It's like saying that just because one gay man identifies as a "fag," that it's ok to run around calling all gay men "fags." A cis person has no right to call trans people as a group "trannies."

Edit: I'm sorry if this post came off as harsh, but honestly this kind of thing is really offensive to me. That people on the one hand say that slurs aren't acceptable, but when it comes to trans people it's acceptable. If a trans person wants to take back that slur to identify themselves, then that's fine, but that isn't an excuse to use that to talk about other trans people as a group.

I absolutely did not say that slurs are acceptable. I said that in this context, she probably didn't realize that some people would take it as a slur. As has already been mentioned, this couple lives in Canada. Where they live, it's not a slur. It's incredibly unfair to expect someone to not use a word that's in common use and not offensive where they live, just because it is offensive in a completely different country.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

Is it possible that her partner didn't lie?

I'm thinking of Chaz Bono as an example. Chaz came out as a lesbian, because he thought that's who he was. And maybe it is who he was at the time. But over time he came to realize that he really was a man and started transitioning. Did Chaz lie to his female partner when he started transitioning after they were together? How can we be so quick to suggest that's what happened in this case?

Without knowing the parties, I'm reluctant to chalk this one up to duplicity. Rather, I think people continue to grow and change throughout a relationship, and this may just be an extreme example of that.

You bring up a good point... and I suppose it is quite possible that a person might not even realize that transition is the path for them early in life. I think sometimes I just assume that everyone has known/realized since early childhood like I did, and that they'd have already realized that the time would come that they would do something about it. But you made me think... and I really can see how maybe it *could* be an epiphany for some.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I absolutely did not say that slurs are acceptable. I said that in this context, she probably didn't realize that some people would take it as a slur. As has already been mentioned, this couple lives in Canada. Where they live, it's not a slur. It's incredibly unfair to expect someone to not use a word that's in common use and not offensive where they live, just because it is offensive in a completely different country.

I don't live in a completely different country. I'm Canadian. I know plenty of people around here who find the slur offensive. Other Canadians in the comment area from Vancouver themselves voiced that they didn't appreciate the use of the word tranny.

She's also writing this in a popular nation-wide LGBT newspaper (Xtra), that is given out for free in newspaper boxes on street corners across this city and across other Canadian cities. This isn't exactly her personal blog.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

But see maybe she is just learning and then uses the terms her husband is comfortable with and is told those are not ok. It is a learning curve.

We know a transman who has limited experience in the trans community and zero experience in the queer community. Wow does he put his foot in in sometimes!!! I would never tell him he was homophobic or transphobic. I just explain how others might hear that remark.

So no you are not misunderstanding me. I don't have the answers in this case. My partner sure would not put up with me calling him or anyone else a tranny. We don't know how it works for these folks.

All I am really trying to say is that partners worry A LOT about being transphobic. I wonder is this the transition I am responding to or just some stuff of my partner's? Is my reaction transphobic? And sometimes it just might be!!! I worry much less about this nowadays. I know what is ok for my partner and for the community. But I learned by screwing up!!!

Oh yeah, I definitely understand that when people are new to something it takes them time to learn. I'm pretty sure all of us have unknowingly made some pretty horrible statements in our time. I know I've said some things that I've regretted just because I didn't know better.

I guess to me it comes down to how willing or sensitive people are to learning. Her comments just don't sound at all like she wants to learn, they seem directly in response to the criticism of these "rah rah trannies" whoever they were.

It just makes her sound like she was wronged by some trans people who criticized the way she was dealing with her husband's transition, and so she took that opportunity to rail against them using derogatory language.

I know emotions can be high when you have to deal with a loved one's transition. But, for me, the question here is when is going too far, really going too far? How many derogatory things can a person express out of anger before it becomes officially hurtful and crosses the imaginary line?

I get that some people use this sort of language without bad intent. One of my roommates who's trans uses the word tranny to refer to herself all the time. That's her identity, but she respects others' identity at least. I just didn't get that from her article, and on to of that those aren't words, to me, cis people should be saying.

And its not that I'm not supportive of SOs who are dealing with their partner's transitions. It's not that I don't understand that sometimes people need to express what they're feeling about a tough situation without judgement. I really think it's important for family and loved ones to get support and counseling, too. It seems that she wasn't getting the support she needed and that truly sucks. At the same time, if someone's unapologetically saying things like those two comments she made...that I find really, really hard to accept. I don't think I can. Basically...I support her until she starts railing against an already marginalized group...

[julieisafemme]

Ender I went back and read the article again. I also read the comments section. There is some good discussion on her use of tranny. It seems that her husband uses this word quite deliberately and so her using it could not be seen as a mistake or not knowing better. In that case it could be seen as deliberately divisive. I think she chose her words carefully and so she does have to be responsible for offending some transpeople.

I still support her speaking out. Much of what she said rang true for me. Sometimes it is hard to know where we fit in. Some think my partner can no longer claim Butch as an ID.

This is a hard subject to talk about. I do not want to offend anyone and yet I feel and understand her frustration.

You are right though that the word was used intentionally and so therefore is offensive to you and lots of other people, even though her partner chooses to identify as a tranny.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Oh yeah, I definitely understand that when people are new to something it takes them time to learn. I'm pretty sure all of us have unknowingly made some pretty horrible statements in our time. I know I've said some things that I've regretted just because I didn't know better.

I guess to me it comes down to how willing or sensitive people are to learning. Her comments just don't sound at all like she wants to learn, they seem directly in response to the criticism of these "rah rah trannies" whoever they were.

It just makes her sound like she was wronged by some trans people who criticized the way she was dealing with her husband's transition, and so she took that opportunity to rail against them using derogatory language.

I know emotions can be high when you have to deal with a loved one's transition. But, for me, the question here is when is going too far, really going too far? How many derogatory things can a person express out of anger before it becomes officially hurtful and crosses the imaginary line?

I get that some people use this sort of language without bad intent. One of my roommates who's trans uses the word tranny to refer to herself all the time. That's her identity, but she respects others' identity at least. I just didn't get that from her article, and on to of that those aren't words, to me, cis people should be saying.

And its not that I'm not supportive of SOs who are dealing with their partner's transitions. It's not that I don't understand that sometimes people need to express what they're feeling about a tough situation without judgement. I really think it's important for family and loved ones to get support and counseling, too. It seems that she wasn't getting the support she needed and that truly sucks. At the same time, if someone's unapologetically saying things like those two comments she made...that I find really, really hard to accept. I don't think I can. Basically...I support her until she starts railing against an already marginalized group...

[Soon]

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

(from the original article)




....but no one discusses this

[Sassy]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Agreed. I *HATE* the word tranny

I grew up in redneck, USA... when I hear the word "tranny" I flash back to shade tree mechanics talking about transmission repair. But yeah, I feel like the word carries some derogatory connotations to it for most folks, whether intended or not by the writer/speaker.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

(from the original article)




....but no one discusses this

I thought we were discussing it. What do you want to discuss about it? It will be different here than in a room full of partners. I am ok with discussions of transphobia as well as sharing my experience.

[Ebon]

I'm actually very interested in hearing more experiences on what it felt like for SO's of trans people. If anyone else would like to share. I mean you don't have to go into detail if you don't want to but I would like to know what it felt or feels like on the other end. Like the woman in the article shared and like some others have already shared.

[betenoire]

Honestly, when I read the phrase "rah rah tranny people" I figured she wasn't speaking about actual transpeople. I figured she was speaking about the cheerleaders, who may not actually be trans themselves.

It's like the term trannychaser. Which is a term I like, frankly. Because it's so fucking spot-on.

In other news: No. Nobody does talk about what it's like to be the SO of someone who is transitioning. It's just fucking not fashionable for the SO to have feelings, especially if not all of those feelings are "rah rah rah GOOOOOOOOOO transperson! wooo!"

True story. Someone I was living with (10 years ago) dropped the "oh hi, I just this week realised that I'm a man and next week I have an appointment at the gender clinic!" (liar liar liar) bomb on me shortly after we moved in together.

Now, he had money troubles. Big money troubles. I was working full-time and he was just on-call at his job. So sometimes I had to pay more than my share of our expenses. I was cool with that because I knew I made more money than he did. So after he started going to his appointments and support groups and hanging out with his cool new boyfriends - he also started buying a shitload of new clothes. I very specifically remember this one month he didn't have money for his half of the phonebill but the next day he came home with a new fucking hoodie. So I called him out on it and he was all *tearfull* *earnest* "But I feel like I pass better in this sweatshirt".

I. Completely. Lost. My. Shit. I absolutely said that "frankly I do not give a fuck if you pass or not at this juncture. Right now I am way more concerned about whether or not we get our telephone cut off." Aaaaaand the universe blew up. "I cannot believe you would say something so TRANSPHOBIC!" blah blah blah. Fuck, I even had to hear what a horrible person I am from some of our mutual friends who he has whined to.

Couple that with the fact that he was, honestly, my First Real Girlfriend and I was feeling real mindjobby about that too (because I was really REALLY stoked to have a First Real Girlfriend, let me tell you.) But you know, I was never allowed to say that out loud to him. And I was never allowed to talk to anybody else about it because saying outloud that I felt ripped off because I no longer had a girlfriend (and what I really wanted was a fucking girlfriend!) was TRANSPHOBIC.

And it really fucking sucks. We are not allowed to have any feelings or disclose any negative experiences because to do so is TRANSPHOBIC. It's almost as if as soon as the person we are with starts to transition we are no longer allowed to be people. We're not allowed to have feelings, unless they are "rah rah rah!".

ETA: More true stories! I have broken up with exactly two other people since then because they decided to transition after we got together. Not because I am TRANSPHOBIC (although I have heard that I am) but because that's just not the relationship that I want to be in. Early on in the transitioning process is often a really selfish/self-absorbed time-frame in a person's life...and so it should be. I certainly am not in any position to tell other people what they should or should not do...but I think it's a time-frame where people are best off single. Or at the very least they are (or I am, more likely) best off not dating ME.

[lettertodaddy]

I'm reluctant to throw "transphobic" around because nobody wants to be put on the spot where they have to defend personal actions that come from specific, individualized experiences. I might be considered transphobic because I've said here and in other spaces that I'm not really interested in dating someone who is transitioning or who identifies as male. I will support anyone's decision to transition, and if I'm in a position to be an ally, then I'll always be that. But there are times when the personal trumps the political, and I think that's what is at work in the original author's relationship.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

I posted this in the femme zone instead of the trans zone because it was written by a femme whose "perfect masculine woman" began transitioning to male four months after they married. I posted it because I've not read many transitioning stories written from a femme's perspective.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/...asy-10868.aspx

I don't find this transphobic at all?

I chose to be with my husband, yet still I had to accept his body hair, the way he smelled, the lack of breasts, my lost identity, my heterosexuality, the questions I asked myself and others asked of me. I was a lesbian and his 'trans' identity didn't change the fact that I was now in a relationship with a man.

I'm glad they stayed together, just as I'm glad I still have my amazing man

[SelfMadeMan]

Agree with both of the last two posts so much! The term 'transphobic' gets tossed around so much lately - likewise, the term misogyny is coming up more and more often, directed at transmen. A person is not transphobic because they choose to leave, when a partner chooses to transition. A person is not transphobic because they choose not to date a trans person. A transman is not misogynistic because he chooses to transition. When I think transphobia or misogyny, I think hate and bias. I think, as a community, we're too critical of one another, and WAY too quick to throw these terms at one another.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Agree with both of the last two posts so much! The term 'transphobic' gets tossed around so much lately - likewise, the term misogyny is coming up more and more often, directed at transmen. A person is not transphobic because they choose to leave, when a partner chooses to transition. A person is not transphobic because they choose not to date a trans person. A transman is not misogynistic because he chooses to transition. When I think transphobia or misogyny, I think hate and bias. I think, as a community, we're too critical of one another, and WAY too quick to throw these terms at one another.

It's not throwing around transphobia needlessly when the word "tranny" is used by cis people to talk about a group of trans people, or when transphobia is depicted as something that trans people throw at cis people to make them feel guilty or negate their feelings. Sorry, but I continue to see her two statements as transphobic. I don't find her feelings over her husbands transition transphobic, nor would I find it transphobic if she left him. In fact, I think it's probably a good idea for a relationship to end if a cis person can't deal with their partner's transition. If they find their partner "hard to love" because of their transition...maybe a break up is better for both, because I know I wouldn't want to be "harder to love" just because of who I am.

And this is where I get back to the questions I was trying to ask before:

At what point does being angry or hurt stop justifying the use of transphobic language. Does it ever? Or is transphobic language always something that trans people should just have to put up with if the person using it is "hurting" or dealing with a partner's transition.

This, to me, is what support groups have always been for. Getting out negative feelings in an SO-only environment without projecting it onto a whole group or a certain individual out of a marginalized group.

[*Anya*]

I read the article. It did bother me that her tone was so flip about such an important subject. Her use if the word "tranny" made me cringe!

We do not know how her partner took that article or how it made him feel to read it it.

That said, it is a serious and important topic. I watched a documentary on Netflix recently called Gender Rebels. It was quite good. One of the 3 subjects was around the life of a lesbian couple and the process that the femme went through when her partner transitioned.

Her grief and fear was valid and real. There was nothing phobic about it. She knew her lover one way for quite a while and then she needed to view her lover in quite another. She did not know if she would lose their lesbian friends or how it would affect their life.

I believe that there is a grieving process involved for any change as massive as this one.

The documentary showed hers. As her lover transitioned-he became happier while she dealt with her sadness. In the end, it appeared that the love that she had for him was greater than her fears of loss and they remained together.

As a lesbian, I do not know what I would do in the same situation but would like to think that I would be able to process it in a healthy fashion and as the romantic that I am-believe that love can conquer all.

I think that having your partner transition would be quite different than meeting someone new and knowing from them from the beginning as trans.