Stone--Personal Definitions

[Canela]

Very interesting thread...enjoying it very much...

[Jack]

Originally Posted by apretty

oh and i have to just add a little aside: there is no feminizing touch, you think rubbing a clit in a circular motion vs. an up and down motion 'feminizes' someone? if that's true--that's a REAL delicate butch (with regards to their masculinity) that you've got on your hands, as it were.

I had two count to ten before I responded to this, It made me so Fucking mad.
How dare you make such a statement.

Let me tell you this, from the horses mouth shall I ?

I am Butch . I am Masculine. I am GenderQueer.

I am not Transitioning, as yet...but maybe one day might get to that place.

I only get off on your ' up and down motion'....

...circular , would not do it for me one bit.....in fact , it would kill it because ya know what ? It would make me feel feminized.

I'll tell you why shall I ? Because when you are rubbing my clit, actualy you are wanking my cock, get it ?

My lovers DO !!

This does not make me a 'delicate butch with regards to my masulinity.' It makes me ME !

Who the hell are you to put out there what does and doesnt feminize a masculine person ? and then mock them ?

Damn , you made me mad.

[Stoney]

Thank you so much for tour reply Blade, We have much in common.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Jack

I had two count to ten before I responded to this, It made me so Fucking mad.
How dare you make such a statement.

Let me tell you this, from the horses mouth shall I ?

I am Butch . I am Masculine. I am GenderQueer.

I am not Transitioning, as yet...but maybe one day might get to that place.

I only get off on your ' up and down motion'....

...circular , would not do it for me one bit.....in fact , it would kill it because ya know what ? It would make me feel feminized.

I'll tell you why shall I ? Because when you are rubbing my clit, actualy you are wanking my cock, get it ?

My lovers DO !!

This does not make me a 'delicate butch with regards to my masulinity.' It makes me ME !

Who the hell are you to put out there what does and doesnt feminize a masculine person ? and then mock them ?

Damn , you made me mad.

bravo.................

[Gemme]

If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?

Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?


A situation doesn't change one's identity. Neither does one's partner. That person does. Or doesn't.

If you date someone of another religion, does that make you an automatic convert?

True story: I met and fell in like with a lovely Transguy. We got along rather well until it was made quite clear to me that, in order to be with him, I would have to be straight.

Um, no.

So, many discussions, fights, and tears later I left the relationship. Both of us were disappointed in the other and that's a sad state to be in simply because he needed a straight girl and I needed a queer guy. Two dissimilar objects trying to fit into the same square. A square that neither of us fit.

My identity is hard won. I have fought everyone...lovers, ex husbands, strangers and myself...for this identity. If anyone wants it, they are going to have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.

[Bit]

Stoney's questions: If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?

Cath: Not as far as I'm concerned, and I'll tell you why. For me personally and according to the other Stonefemmes who have shared with me, this identity is our own. It's not granted to us by the Stone Butch, nor is it contagious--they cannot somehow magically turn us into Stonefemmes.

This identity is consistent within us no matter whom we might choose as a partner. Many of us have had the experience of being with non-Stone Butches whom we loved very deeply and feeling just awful BECAUSE we weren't comfortable with them sexually; I myself thought I was somehow a badly defective Lesbian because I didn't enjoy "doing as was done to me," yanno? Discovering Stone Butches was a huge "coming home" after years of that kind of relationship, and believe me, the relief was so huge that I cried for weeks.

Stoney: Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?

Cath: I think nothing external, including a partner, can change an internal identity. I will say that it might appear that way to onlookers, if the Femme is exploring her own identity and experiments with the Stonefemme label to see if it fits her, but to me that is still an internal identity exploration. I can tell you that I changed very drastically over the course of a couple years, and while the things Stone Butches and Transmen were saying served as a catalyst for the changes, it was still my own internal process. Actually, other Femmes of all kinds were a bigger influence in my identity exploration.

Stoney: If you would be changing your style of sex out of respect for the person you were with or is it a lifestyle you would continue to pursue even in a different relationship? also would a woman who identifies as a stone femme whether in a relationship or not only look to date a stone butch?

Cath: I prefer to date Stone Butches and Transmen, but I'm not limited to them. I've fallen in love with many a Butch who was neither. Gryph is neither.

Stoney: I know for me, being Stone isnt an issue if it was a casual thing but what about a different senerio, you fall in love with a person who wasnt stone before,

Cath: I admit that I was concerned! It hadn't gone so well in the past, falling in love with non-Stone Butches, and I wondered if I would be able to deal with it. What made me willing to try was that Gryph and I were completely compatible in the rest of our lives (well. Except for his infamous "butchelor pad" non-cleaning tendencies, that is), and I trusted him to be respectful of my boundaries as a Stonefemme. He is respectful of them, he does understand, and we've never had a problem.

Stoney: or maybe you fall in love with a stone butch and you arent....would you always feel like something was missing? Would you miss making love to a woman? I always wondered if my partner was feeling restricted from something she may desire to do with me or to me , just like I do her.

Cath: I've had a hard time shaking off the guilt because I wasn't "performing" the way some of my past lovers expected me to, but miss it? No. It's not my thing. I don't know any Stonefemmes who say they miss it, either... most of my friends over the years have said they, like me, are relieved to be able to concentrate on having sex that feels natural to us in relationships that work for us with partners we adore. I've heard that so consistently that I think maybe they feel that relief at finding the right kind of relationship in the same huge way I do.

Thank you for the questions!

[Stoney]

wow, nice post thank you Gemme, for an honest direct answer.

I enjoy your posts.

Stoney.

[Stoney]

Bit!

thank you so much for all your answers. I honestly have been wondering about these things for years, what you said , I have heard my partner say," it takes the pressure off, it allows her to be comfortable, because we are so compatible in that way". I was hoping my questions came off genuine because they were. I never really understoond stone femme either, till recently , I am embarrassed to admit I was wrong for a long time on that,

It has helped me to see it and understand it , we are really so much alike arent we ?

Thank you so much Bit , Love all your posts too!


Peace Stoney

[CherylNYC]

I love Bit's line about stone not being a contagious disease. Ha! I am who I am. My partners are who they are.

As for telling my friends that I'm a stonefemme, its kinda personal. Except, that is, for this website. Online communities are a funny thing. Only a very few of my close friends know this fundamental thing about me, but I wrote it loud and clear for anyone to see on my profile. Hmmm. One of the reasons I endured the incredibly irritating heteronormative posturing on the other site was that it was the only place I could interact with anyone who was like me. One of the reasons I stay active in this online community is because I find my ID so utterly isolating.

While most people have some idea what it means to be a stone butch, even my friends in the sex-positive kink community have NO IDEA what it means to be a stonefemme. When I tell them their eyes open wide in disbelief. I can't blame them. I had no idea what it meant until a few years ago. To be honest, if I were not a stonefemme I would very likely have trouble getting my head around the idea. There's still a part of me that says, "stonefemme? WTF?". I still struggle with feelings of inadequacy.

My late gf was nearly stone. She let me know in every way that we had the best sex she had in her life. That helped. A lot. My partner previous to her was not stone. She wanted me to reciprocate and neither of us knew why I just couldn't do what we both expected me to want to do in bed. She felt rejected, and I felt like a failure whenever it came up. Unfortunately she died suddenly in an accident in '03. Even though it's irrational, I still feel guilty that she died without getting what she wanted from me. We communicated a lot after she passed. I feel like she knows that I really did the best I could, and that I was only guilty of ignorance, but I soooo wish that she were alive to have that conversation with me.

I'm a BDSM masochist and a sexual bottom. Both my late partner and my late gf were big, bad- ass butch tops. That top/bottom dynamic can foster a stone sexual relationship even with couples who don't ID as stone. You know- aggressor/receiver, pitcher/catcher, dominant/submissive. That's how my late partner and I managed to have sizzling, screaming, mind-blowing sex even though we had unresolved issues around reciprocity. We both chalked it up to our sexual D/s dynamic.

It's all knotted up with guilt and mortality for me, but right now I'm just not secure enough in my stone ID to risk a romance with a butch who is not stone. I might be able to do it later in my life, but not now. I think those who can do it must have awesome communication skills. Maybe I'll get there one day.

[Stoney]

cheryl, thank you so much,

great perspective, great post,

Im learning alot .

Peace Stoney

[Toughy]

I'm a BDSM masochist and a sexual bottom. Both my late partner and my late gf were big, bad- ass butch tops. That top/bottom dynamic can foster a stone sexual relationship even with couples who don't ID as stone. You know- aggressor/receiver, pitcher/catcher, dominant/submissive. That's how my late partner and I managed to have sizzling, screaming, mind-blowing sex even though we had unresolved issues around reciprocity. We both chalked it up to our sexual D/s dynamic.

I wanted to piggyback on this idea.....

I am not sexually stone, except when I am.

When I am in Top kink space, I am about as sexually stone as you could possibly be. I am totally cock-identified and my clit is not a cock ever. I don't have a clit or breasts.

Outside of Top kink space, it is about the energy between the femme in my (her) bed and me. It's very fluid (from stone to all access) and very satisfying.

I also want to point out there are Femmes who are sexually stone.......meaning they don't want penetration or breasts played with or clit sucked. They get their pleasure from fucking/making love to the butch in their bed.

I also think everyone has sexual boundaries that must be respected. Sexual boundaries is not a phenomenon of Stone id.

[cinderella]

Wow, Bit, what a sigh of relief when I read your post!! You are describing my experience to a T. Thank you for posting this. You have reaffirmed any hint of vestigial doubt I may still have had regarding this issue. I couldn't have said it any better - very well expressed.


[QUOTE=Bit;122860]
[SIZE=3][COLOR=teal]
*snip*
This identity is consistent within us no matter whom we might choose as a partner. Many of us have had the experience of being with non-Stone Butches whom we loved very deeply and feeling just awful BECAUSE we weren't comfortable with them sexually; I myself thought I was somehow a badly defective Lesbian because I didn't enjoy "doing as was done to me," yanno? Discovering Stone Butches was a huge "coming home" after years of that kind of relationship, and believe me, the relief was so huge that I cried for weeks.

[dark_crystal]

my fetlife profile says the following:

The orientation and identity i identify strongest with is Stone Femme:
*Definition from wikipedia via the old butch-femme.com: Stone femme is a lesbian identity whose name was patterned after the more widely-known term stone butch. Identification with the term is not necessarily dependent upon the stone femme's physical appearance or gender expression, or upon the identity of the stone femme's partner.

Stone femme has many different meanings:

- a femme who is the bottom in sexual interactions
- a femme who is attracted to or partnered with masculine or stone butches; who does not wish to sexually touch her partners' genitals, or whose partner does not wish to have her/hys/his biological genitals touched
- an exceptionally femme femme
- a femme top who does not wish to be genitally stimulated or touched by her partner during sex

Some people use the term 'stone femme' to describe their identity in regards to their sexual identity or gender identity, their boundaries regarding the expression of either, or their sexual boundaries. Some stone femmes identify as queer, as dykes, and/or as lesbians. Others do not identify as lesbians due to the disconnect between the political and sexual connotations of the word and the reality of their experiences.*

This identity does have certain nuances for me- i predict many curious-about-me profile visitors will read "a femme (...) who does not wish to sexually touch her partners' genitals" with alarm- herein lies the nuance:

sexually my default mode is very passive and i could be mistaken for a “pillow princess.” NOT SO! i enjoy touching and tasting my partners in any way or amount they desire! It is just that, because i am extremely passive and submissive, i must be ordered specifically to do so. Once i am under orders my efforts are enthusiastic (and skilled!), i assure you. And no, a standing order is not affective.

[friskyfemme]

I answered this question sometime back in another forum. It generated some miscommunication. I will try not to offend others . Here goes.

'Stone' for me is who I seek for a sexual partner ('stone' butches or TGs). It's not a gender for me, but it also defines what sexual acts I do and do not find sexual stimulating. I don't enjoy performing oral sex. I don't like feeling or manipulating my partner's chest/breast. Using 'stone', helps cut through, explaining what I expect or need sexually and that I respect my partner's needs, wants, and desires.

I do, however, loved to be licked, suckled, and penetrated (fingers, dildo and cock).

I am also a 'bottom femme' but that's another thread!

[Stoney]

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Stoney

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Borrowing from dark crystals definitions, I seem to recall some dialogue about Stonefemme as one word and Stone Femme as two separate words.

The latter referring to limits on how one was engaged with sexually aka Stone Butch (Stone Femme -a femme who does not wish to be genitally stimulated by her partner during sex) and the former being about ones preferences on how they related to their partners body (Stonefemme- a femme who is attracted to or partnered with masculine or stone butches; who does not wish to sexually touch her partners' genitals, or whose partner does not wish to have her/hys/his biological genitals touched).

I’m one of those that respond well to labelling, I appreciate the ‘short-cut’ introductions and the fact that it enables me not to have to constantly explain how I relate to the world. This of course only works if definitions are agreed to, understood and maintained- but perhaps life isn’t so easily navigated after all. Maybe I’m just getting grumpy in my old age, because while I’m ok with people changing what labels they feel akin to- that makes sense to me, it is when the meanings of the labels themselves change that I get frustrated.

HowSoonIsNow I appreciate you starting this thread and opening the dialogue-, and a thank you to you as well Stoney; your direct questions are how we find agreement and mutual understanding of meanings. While personal definitions are important, to me their value only comes once a universal (as in butch-femme community) understanding is reached.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Stoney

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Yes, for better or worse, that's correct. And pretty darned confusing. There are femme women who have the same sexual boundaries typical of a stone butch. They may or may not strap, but they are the 'pitcher'. Those women are stone femmes. I believe Bit once suggested that in order to differentiate we could use 'stone femme' for a femme sexual top who does not want to be penetrated, and 'stonefemme' for a femme sexual bottom who claims the ID we've been dissecting in the above thread.

Yeah, OK, I can do that. Unfortunately the terms are barely distinguishable in print and utterly indistinguishable when spoken. What is more, the word 'stone' simply does not fit the openness and receptivity embodied by a stonefemme. 'Stone' is a wonderful descriptor for any person who does not get penetrated. 'Stone' evokes impenetrability. Which is why it always made me uncomfortable as part of the term that describes me.

Another reason I don't like the term is that using it for both a stone femme sexual top as well as a stonefemme sexual bottom will eventually erase the identity of those who are in the minority, (stone femme sexual tops). If logic prevailed, which it probably won't, 'stone' would be solely the provenance of the impenetrable.

I haven't thought of anything nearly clever enough to replace this term. I wish someone else would. I would adopt it in a heartbeat as long as it doesn't imply 'fragile flower'.

[Bit]

I hear ya, Cheryl, I really hear ya... but so far, "stonefemme" is all we've got. I know it doesn't evoke softness, receptivity, or flexibility in the least, which is utterly ironic since those are terms that seem to apply to so many of us--and that seem to also describe what so many Stone Butches find attractive in us!

I would say "girl" because that fits such a huge number of stonefemmes, but then we would be leaving out all the stonefemmes who don't identify at all as girls--and it would confuse matters horribly with all the girls who are not stonefemmes!

I honestly don't know how to find a word that would fit us all without leaving anyone out and without causing more confusion than it solves.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Bit

I hear ya, Cheryl, I really hear ya... but so far, "stonefemme" is all we've got. I know it doesn't evoke softness, receptivity, or flexibility in the least, which is utterly ironic since those are terms that seem to apply to so many of us--and that seem to also describe what so many Stone Butches find attractive in us!

I would say "girl" because that fits such a huge number of stonefemmes, but then we would be leaving out all the stonefemmes who don't identify at all as girls--and it would confuse matters horribly with all the girls who are not stonefemmes!

I honestly don't know how to find a word that would fit us all without leaving anyone out and without causing more confusion than it solves.

You're right. 'Girl' has never been my ID, and I know far too many femmes who do ID as girls and who are not stonefemmes.

Where are all the clever coiners of terms?

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by Stoney

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Yep Stoney,

For me... you got it nailed!