The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think that there is a darned good system in place to deal with NT people that don't "follow the rules". I hear what you are saying but I don't want to get too far sidetracked into how NT people are assholes too and "get away" with it. I think it detracts from what we are talking about here.

We are a self policed community here, and how "we" choose to deal with each other is super important.

What I am exploring here is fair and equitable treatment for people who are differently abled, and how maybe we have a different set of expectations sometimes.

Thanks for this thread. I will be back to participate later. Gotta get some household stuff done, today!

My 30 year old great-nephew will soon be living close to me as he enters graduate school. He is not only a young man born with V.A.T.E.R.'s Syndrome (also known as V.A.C.T.E.R.L. syndrome) with life-long physical ramifications, hospitalizations and surgeries. He also also deals with Asperger's syndrome.

Will be good to be able to read some things, here, I believe.

http://specialchildren.about.com/od/...ex/g/VATER.htm

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am not talking about expectations, although I do think that if we are going to take the time to understand and communicate with people of different abilities that we can take an extra moment and give that same consideration to NT people too if we want to.

I am speaking to a different set of rules/consequences. Really, even if consequences are on a case by case basis (which isn't a bad thing and is my understanding this happens across the board here by mods/owners) at then end of the day are the rules different?

If so, then how is that empowering and a positive thing?

I don't have autism/AS so I don't really know what things look like for somebody that does. Since you know maybe you can tell me if you would feel ok with having a different set of rules than the rest of the world?

Because I am super interested in hearing from ALL kinds of differently abled people.

If someone doesn't consider themselves as such, I respect that. Who am I to label? As for you bringing it up and the response being "that person is not stupid"? That is not a response from a person who wants to communicate. That is a response from a person who is deeply invested in being "right".

I get pretty fumed at the expectation of stupidity in relation to being differently abled. I want to punch people that say "You're so smart, I'd never know you had a TBI".

Instead? I try to educate. If it's a moot point, I don't try very hard.

PS, and I appologize if I sounded like NT people are assholes too! Some of my best friends are NT's. Ha!

Everyone can be an asshole.

And maybe, on further reflection that is the point you are making? No passes for being an asshole no matter what your deal or excuse might be?

Because if so? I agree 100% as long as we are making completely sure the person is indeed an asshole (like Balloon Boy's dad, apparently )

[The_Lady_Snow]

[quote=violaine;151949]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself?

TheLadySnow

i was thinking apocalipstic's post was really good [to me] about her ability to understand posts, over the years, which may have been written by DA, and NT moderated.

your question, although it's to apocalipstic, i would like to respond to, please. in my own experiences, i could ask the very same thing about NT's who disrespect boundaries time and time again- do i chalk it up to being the 'majority?"

this is very interesting, because i sometimes have wondered if NT's - DA or not - notice certain things, which can get lost during my translation to someone not on the spectrum, whenever i try to explain what i just heard and/or saw - and these NT words/behaviours can happen rapid-fire.

We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no? We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

[adorable]

I give people passes. Differently abled - perfectly abled - any kind of abled.

We ALL have something that isn't right. For some of us, how we are raised means that we don't have appropriate social skills. Some might talk like an asshole to everyone, scream and yell - say all kinds of mean and stupid things. My grandfather comes to mind. I have a choice as to whether or not I interact with him. I chose to. I do that because I love him and know that his life was way harder then mine and that in his heart he cares about me. Would people call him abusive? Yep and he sure can be. I give him a pass and deal with him knowing full well what that means. He cannot change. He dropped out of school in the 7th or 8th grade. He is 81 years old. He has good qualities. I don't have to agree with everything he says or even like it. I shrug it off and consider the source for his information or accusations. I chose how I react to him.

I have someone who works for me that is developmentally disabled and has the mental capacity of a 13 year old girl. I give her passes all day long. She is 25 years old. She cannot change. I interact with her and view her as a 13 year old girl, she's worked for me for six years. She lies. She gets boy crazy. Makes bad choices. I do not hold her to the same level of accountability as others on my staff. It wouldn't make sense. She doesn't function at that level. Her life, outside of her job, is 100% harder. She is picked on by strangers on the street, mocked and sometimes taken advantage of. For that alone I will give her a pass. I don't need to kick her ass all day - the minute she leaves the world will do it for her. She suffers from OCD too. She has destroyed things because of it. It's frustrating to deal with for me personally. But I know it is 10x worse for her. Her capacity to understand things is not likely to change. She is capable of learning, but a capacity to truly understand? Not likely.

I have a brain "issue" that at different times can make me loopy. That is the least of what it can do. I am smart. Really smart. I am also quick. I'm hard to fool. I can think clearly much of the time. The problem is in those loopy moments, I don't know I'm loopy. People that love me get it. They are whose opinions matter to me. I will be given a pass, if for no other reason then they are grateful to have me here on this earth. And because when it is happening - I don't know it. I don't have the capacity to recognize it. So someone could get all up in my face and they might as well just keep their blood pressure down. It won't do a damn bit of good. And my "insubordination" is not a reflection of anyone's screaming ability. It has to do with how the world appears to me at that moment which might just be all spinny with multicolored glitter.

There is a difference between pushing someone for their own good - for instance - to walk again with positive cheerleading. Then there is expecting something that someone doesn't have the capacity to give. My mother used a belt to potty train me. I didn't ever hit my kids, but I did tell them to get up if they fell down. No crying. Get back up and keep moving. I regret that. I wish I had hugged them more and demanded less. Oh, I'm sure it helped toughen them up. But now, at 35 I am trying to learn how to be softer. I hope I haven't caused either of them the resentment that I have spent trying to undo towards my own mother for all that screaming, demanding and ridiculous expectations of steel. Sometimes, no matter how tough we are - we all need a pass. A safe place to fall. Understanding and compassion go a lot farther then screaming and yelling and demanding. I make a choice of interacting with the people I do - if I can't handle it - it's simply best if I don't.

My ex has severe mental illnesses. She has done shitty things without as much as a sincere apology. She doesn't have the capacity. I can scream, yell, jump up and down, call her on her shit - hold a gun to her - and she still doesn't have capacity. Does she have a pass? She did. I don't hold people responsible for illnesses like that. I did expect her to go on medication. There were consequences for not doing that. We both live with that every day. I didn't have to raise my voice either. She's not stupid or a bad person. She is sick and very differently abled. I talk to her in the way that does the best good and try to keep in mind that today I am lucky enough to know the difference in a way that she may not - ever. I live in reality. My reality. Not everyone does. Handing out passes doesn't cost me a damn thing. There are plenty of people out there that hold on to them like gold wrapper on a willy wonka bar.

[MrSunshine]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

PS, and I appologize if I sounded like NT people are assholes too! Some of my best friends are NT's. Ha!

Everyone can be an asshole.

And maybe, on further reflection that is the point you are making? No passes for being an asshole no matter what your deal or excuse might be?

Because if so? I agree 100% as long as we are making completely sure the person is indeed an asshole (like Balloon Boy's dad, apparently )

When you find a way to figure out if someone is an asshole and are completely sure let us all in on it???

I was just thinking about this thread and assholes (of all things). There really is NO way of knowing what is up with everyone on ANY given site.
I've seen a quote on a few people's page that says something about "everyone you meet is going through something" (okay, my memory blows) you get the point though right? Still no pass.

[Apocalipstic]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;152040]

Originally Posted by violaine

We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no? We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

You are right we do have to have the same rules for everyone.

But say if you said something some people took wrong and I knew it was because English is not your first language, I would say so and be supportive of you.

I really like it that we have time outs on this website before full on banning, so people can think about what they did to break the rules.

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?

[MrSunshine]

[quote=apocalipstic;152046]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?

This is a damn good question.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by MrSunshine

When you find a way to figure out if someone is an asshole and are completely sure let us all in on it???

I was just thinking about this thread and assholes (of all things). There really is NO way of knowing what is up with everyone on ANY given site.
I've seen a quote on a few people's page that says something about "everyone you meet is going through something" (okay, my memory blows) you get the point though right? Still no pass.

On the rules? I agree.

and good point on assholes, sometimes I give pass after pass after pass until I have nothing left and walk away.

[The_Lady_Snow]

[quote=apocalipstic;152046]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

You are right we do have to have the same rules for everyone.

But say if you said something some people took wrong and I knew it was because English is not your first language, I would say so and be supportive of you.

I really like it that we have time outs on this website before full on banning, so people can think about what they did to break the rules.

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?

Because I know I have to decipher things from spanish to english, then fucking read through the cryptic lettering and put it all together in my head I watch what I say.

I read posts sometimes 20 times and still I fuck up, I don't expect anyone to pat pat me or use a different filter.

*I* don't want that.

I am just the same as everyone else with the same rules

[Apocalipstic]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;152051]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Because I know I have to decipher things from spanish to english, then fucking read through the cryptic lettering and put it all together in my head I watch what I say.

I read posts sometimes 20 times and still I fuck up, I don't expect anyone to pat pat me or use a different filter.

*I* don't want that.

I am just the same as everyone else with the same rules

I get what you are saying and agree. I do the same thing.

I highlight so I can read the print if the color is too light, change the damn font size on my computer, try to take into account what the person might be feeling or what they REALLY might mean, where they might be from, what does their slang mean (I look that up)....etc...etc...so i can try to know how to answer. Then I try to make my sentence phrasing and spelling sound like I am from the US..............

But bottom line, you are right! Hell, if you and I can follow the rules, then they can't be that hard to follow.

[Liam]

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

So I have to ask you Liam, if this person has been asked a THOUSAND times to back off, and one has reiterated their boundaries time and time again with them I should give them a pass and fuck my safe space?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

I'm not sure a pass per say. I think showing this type of person how and why their behavior is inappropriate. There are some who have short term memory loss and will never get their behavior is inappropriate. That doesn't mean they get a pass, they get talked to, shown and yes umpteen times if needed. Look if we can't be compassionate about those who are in this community and who have mental abilities that aren't the same as ours, what does that say about us?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I have to ask you Liam, if this person has been asked a THOUSAND times to back off, and one has reiterated their boundaries time and time again with them I should give them a pass and fuck my safe space?

If they have indeed been asked a thousand times and seem to not understand boundaries then, it would seem to me, that clearly they lack social competence, and they really don't know how to do what you would like them to do.

Would not putting them on ignore, maintain your safe space?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

If they have indeed been asked a thousand times and seem to not understand boundaries then, it would seem to me, that clearly they lack social competence, and they really don't know how to do what you would like them to do.

Would not putting them on ignore, maintain your safe space?

Nah

I don't like putting anything on ignore it keeps me aware of my surroundings and what is coming at me..

*shrugs*

I don't agree with you, I feel if someone is asking another person to respect their boundaries and to back off they should be held accountable period.

I am heartless perhaps but ok with that

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

As a person with severe brain injury I hear what you are saying. In fact I live with what you are saying.

In my brain injury rehab there were a lot of young men. A LOT of them were very sexually inappropriate. Hell, *I* was sexually inappropriate at first too. I would grab nurses rear ends and ask incredibly inappropriate sexual question. I was often kicked out of therapies. By the time I was done I had had 11 different occupational therapists. 11!!!!

At rehab, there was a warning, and then there was either suspension or expulsion from the program. At occupational therapy? Same thing.

Why is that do you think? The very places we are at for help are kicking us out! I used to get soooo angry.

Until I had an "aha" moment. That was as follows: when I am inappropriate with myself there is just me. With my loved ones? There is more lee-way for a pass, but they can walk away. To strangers? Well aha! No nurse deserves to be groped. Or made the object of sexual inappropriateness. The is not just "me" involved any longer when I am inappropriate or don't follow the rules. To put greater value on *me* because I am disabled erases the other human being involved. After being kicked out of 11 occupational therapy programs? I figured out that a little self gratification in my room was probably a WAY better idea than getting kicked out again, and I was running out of options.

I don't think it's fair to place greater equitable value on one human being than another. So if a person is on this site, is differently abled and been talked to and talked to and worked with? And still is sexually inappropriate, or calling names, or any other number of behaviors? Then consequences are in order.

I also think it's dangerous to assume that everyone is NOT differently abled just because you haven't been told otherwise. I have seen one differently abled person do all the things I mentioned above to another differently abled person and never have a clue that that was the case.

So again, I am not asking the site to lose it's compassion. In fact I am not even purporting to tell others what to do.

But I am asking you (specific and general) to not give me Adele a pass where you normally wouldn't give one. Please. It doesn't help me.

I may be a lot of things, but I have NOT been fighting for equality both in the Queer world and the Disabled world to have it taken away from me against my will.

Just like I got a marriage license last year here in CA. If I were to ever break up? I would fully expect to go through the same thing hetero couples go through. Divorce, sharing of property, child support, and spousal support should all be taken into consideration. I don't get to rip up my marriage license and not have the same consequences because "Queer marriage is now illegal".

I don't want to participate on this site, within my own community as anything other than an equal. I don't want differently abled to be the only lens you see me through, or the first thought when debating with me.

I'm willing to do the work, and follow the rules. I'm willing to learn. I can't do that if I never know I am wrong.

I can only truly make this plea for myself, but I would hope that all differently abled people would be treated as equals. Not separate but equal.

Edited to add: I am NOT asking for a lack of compassion, or for people to lose all patience and empathy with me. Or anyone else. Not at all. A pass does not = working with somebody. I've tried really hard to make that clear but feel I've got a big fat fail because I don't feel heard.

[Corkey]

Equality is great, and people should be held accountable, no matter how many times it needs to happen. With people who are fully capable of doing so. Some just aren't, and they are the ones I will work with, not give a pass to, but work with. I think we are saying the same thing. If we are referring to an individual, who is fully aware that their behavior is inappropriate, then yes they need to be held accountable. Ones rights end at the beginning of another's nose.

[Massive]

I'm definitely differently-abled, and have been now for quite a few years.
I have rheumatoid arthritis and, since I tore the ligaments in my lower left back, I now have an on and off back injury to deal with, it can go from my literally turning my head.
Part of me resents when I get looks from older people now, because I sit at the front on public transport, here if you're disabled or elderly they ask that the first few rows of seats are given up to the disabled or elderly, and since the disability act was passed here a few years back, a disabled person has more right to be on a bus than someone with a pushchair and child.
I appreciate when friends ask if I'm able to do the same things as they do, although I keep reminding them that I've had RA now since I was 18, so I know my limits, I know what I can and can't do, and do my own risk assessment ahead of time. At the same time it does feel like some of them are trying to hand me this mythical 'pass' like a get out of jail free card in monopoly, to just say, "It's okay, we'll just walk slower/talk to hym like hy's slow because hy's not the same as us." kind of attitude.
The majority of my friends know beyond a doubt if they treat me that way they'll find out pretty damn sharply not to do it again, ever. However, I also have a certain group of friends, who I now rarely make the effort to see, who tell me I can't call myself disabled, because I don't look it, you can't see my RA, I'm lucky enough that it hasn't progressed to the point where my knuckles and fingers are twisted with it, you can't see my back injury, apart from when I can barely walk, and then I sometimes get "Oh, you're just too fat, you need to lose weight." yeah, that'd help, but what helps more is not having ignorant feckers say things like that to me when I'm already having a day bad enough that I can't just use my cane to walk, I'm using crutches.
I often want to say to these people, okay, if you think living a life like this is so easy, spend a day in my shoes, see what it's like to walk around feeling like there's a mix of ground glass and acid poured into every joint, try walking with someone jabbing you in the back with a knife at every step, try pulling your head out your arse and realise that just because I'm not the same as you doesn't mean I can't understand english, I'm not stupid, it's just my body can't keep up with the rest of me, and this is how I'm going to be for the rest of my life.
I do have a badge for parking, which stays with me so I can use it in whichever car I'm in, I do sit in the seats at the front of the bus, I do have to sit, making sure either my crutches or cane are visible so I don't get elderly people glaring at me accusingly.
I do have a life, I just have to live it a little bit slower and more carefully than those who have nothing wrong with them.
I am a human being, I deserve the same respect as anyone else so why is it so damn hard to receive this?

Also wanted to add, for anyone who hadn't noticed 'here' for me is the UK...

[SuperFemme]

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

[Ursy]

Interesting thread...

You know, I wonder every single day - what would it be like to be neurotypical? Would it make life any easier? Would I like it? Would I hate it? (I have Asperger's)

Anyway...

As for the subject of passes or not, I'm finding the concept difficult to negotiate in my head. On the one hand, it is *not* a level playing field... but on the other hand, I get what you're saying Adele - everyone should take responsibility for their own shitty behaviour. I guess the complicating factor for me - as some have said: sometimes what appears to be shitty behaviour REALLY isn't - and most people don't bother trying to clarify things first before jumping all over someone who never meant any offence in the first place. I've seen it happen COUNTLESS times.

I'm all for giving passes - but not just for DA people, everyone. Everyone has a bad day now and then, everyone stuffs up, expresses something badly, misreads something. It's just about giving folks the benefit of the doubt. It's giving them a chance to clarify things before I write them off as a jerk or an asshole. It's not assuming that my first interpretation was the correct and only interpretation.

So I guess by that definition, I'm not giving passes. Can they be passes if you give them to everyone? Lol. Maybe I've gone off on a tangent.