Third or Other Gender Butch

[Toughy]

Met my friend.........

fuck 'em ........

be who you are.....we all have many twists and turns as we walk in this world.......the good and the painful........I figure we learn from everything that happens......change really is not a bad thing........I would much rather be a person who is grows than a person who never grows.

[alex k]

Please forgive me if i shouldnt be in this thread and feel free to move me along. I am in the process of atarting transition because i feel i don.t totally belong in the female gender. That being said i'm not 100% sure i belong in the male either. I'm probably 70/30 but its just enough to feel uncomfortable as a female. Saying that all my clothes etc and outward display is male. Maybe if gender fluid or third gender was more accepted the way bi sexual has come to be then i wouldnt feel the need to choose. But right now i do. Maybe after transition the odds will be down to 90/10 but think i will always be a part of both. And i'm hoping my psych doesnt read this- there goes my chances of surgery!

[daisyfm]

Good thread. I understand what is talked about here.
I would also like to say something that gets me in trouble a lot, but I truly think is important to mention. I think femme is a gender as well..maybe a fourth gender or a third alongside butch, I don't know.
I don't feel I am just a woman, or just a lesbian, I am a femme and this gender of mine does say a lot about me. I hope others feel the same way.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

It makes sense to me. Thank you for mentioning it.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

You know, some parts of your experience don't resonate with me--for instance, the part about experiencing feminine as something "other" which is not related to gender, or your body speaking a different language than you do--but then some parts of it resonate SO strongly!! And I just absolutely love your last paragraph. Like parallel bicycles, that's a wonderful metaphor.

Other people do think I'm aligned, gender and body, and it makes my gender invisible to them. My gender is Femme. It is not the same gender as Woman, which is what people assume. Over the years I've gotten so much resistance and so much confusion that I've just given up and for the sake of having coherent conversations, I've starting referring to myself as a woman again... but my gender is Femme.

[AtLast]

I know several butches that identify Butch as their gender. So, why not Femme as gender? And why can't this also be 3rd-Gendered, or part of the other gender modalities that are being brought out??

Thinking that Dylan's earlier post about TG women/femmes resonates here, especially when someone feels they might get flack for it.

[Gryph]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

Yep, makes lots of sense to me.
I do understand the internal fighting of am I male or am I female. When I was 13 I wanted to be a boy, because of a crush I had on an older girl.
Fast forward to High School and the uncomfortable feeling I had in trying to play girl, even though I was one of the rough neck kids...tackle frisbee comes to mind. Having a boyfriend, because all the females of that time had boyfriends. Even if they really didn't want them.
Until I came out at age 30, I was still not femme even though I had stopped thinking of transitioning, I really didn't want the man body either.
It took me several years after that to figure out that I'm just fine in a female body and being the weird, cool kid, who can work and do just as much as most males.

*posting when tired is a dangerous thing. Hope this makes some semblance of sense*

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by alex k

Please forgive me if i shouldnt be in this thread and feel free to move me along. I am in the process of atarting transition because i feel i don.t totally belong in the female gender. That being said i'm not 100% sure i belong in the male either. I'm probably 70/30 but its just enough to feel uncomfortable as a female. Saying that all my clothes etc and outward display is male. Maybe if gender fluid or third gender was more accepted the way bi sexual has come to be then i wouldnt feel the need to choose. But right now i do. Maybe after transition the odds will be down to 90/10 but think i will always be a part of both. And i'm hoping my psych doesnt read this- there goes my chances of surgery!

Hi, Alex K.

Welcome to the thread! If you want to be here to talk about the "third gendered" or "other gendered" butch, than you belong here!

There are lots of guys that transition in some way physically or take T and still don't define as male. Sometimes people just want their bodies to match their mind, but that doesn't mean male or female or man or woman, necessarily.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Met, for a few years now I have been reading many of your posts. I am always drawn in by your words and thoughts.

I too have struggled internally with very similar feelings and thoughts. The struggle really heated up when I made the decision to transition. I do feel more at peace now but I wince each time I correct people to call me "He." It's true, I do prefer He when given the only binary option of he or she. However, I am neither.

For me when I state I am a Transman or a Transmasculine Butch it more clearly says who I believe myself to be. Thanks for keeping this discussion going and doing it with authenticity, patience and vulnerability.

I can say the same thing reading your thoughts over the years Greyson, and I'm glad you chimed in here.

Definitely hear you on the pronouns too, I've used Hy Hys Hym online for many years trying to at least indicate that "middle" feeling, but really don't get worked up over other pronouns.

My lady always called me "she" when we first met, but now she alternates them though I've never requested her to use any in particular, seems they just pop out back and forth at random (at first she said she surprised herself in doing so). It doesn't bother me, somehow seems like a kind of odd subconscious acknowledgment that she does see that genderqueer-ness in me.

Metro

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

It doesn't for me either, which is something I treasure. I also know that part of why I feel this way is because of living in a time when gender dynamics have opened-up and there is a place of comfort for me to have what is masculine and remain female and a woman. I accept the 3rdG and just feeling like a Female-Other. I guess it is elastic for me and freeing to have this mix. I already discussed the fusion in all of this for me with my lesbian sexuality, it really is about woman to woman for me. There is a spiritual balance for me as well and a connection to the archtypal woman, or The Great Mother that simply remders me female.

I do prefer being referred to she, her as far as pronouns, but it is not as big of a deal as it used to be. Again, I believe, due to the multi-facets of gender as we have come to know today. Not something I get angry about because I know I present as both masculine and feminine. Although, as the years have passed, my exterior seems more masculine.. yanno, menopause! Although, my body has always been more of what we traditionally consider masculine.

I just like my body as it is and am comfortable in it. But, I certainly get the struggles that other butches have with this. And I certainly know butches that deal with these issues in a multitude of ways.

I also recognize Femme as a gender as well as Butch (although not for myself).

It feels like that for most of us in this discussion that the traditional binary of male and female is the culprit. But, I feel that these have been expanded and do not remain as they were. Plus, other gender identifications are available to us all.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by alex k

Please forgive me if i shouldnt be in this thread and feel free to move me along. I am in the process of atarting transition because i feel i don.t totally belong in the female gender. That being said i'm not 100% sure i belong in the male either. I'm probably 70/30 but its just enough to feel uncomfortable as a female. Saying that all my clothes etc and outward display is male. Maybe if gender fluid or third gender was more accepted the way bi sexual has come to be then i wouldnt feel the need to choose. But right now i do. Maybe after transition the odds will be down to 90/10 but think i will always be a part of both. And i'm hoping my psych doesnt read this- there goes my chances of surgery!

Hey alex,

Perhaps you may want to try asking questions and discussing any concerns you may have with folks on the trans threads. This is not to say you are not welcome here because you are more than welcome, but it concerns me that you are talking about transitioning before you are really sure that is what you want to do.

It may be a big help for you to talk to some of the guys who have been through and are going through that huge process before just jumping into it because being a female doesn't feel quite right to you at this moment. If being a man doesn't feel right either, perhaps you want to discuss it more before taking drastic steps.

I hope this finds you doing well! Keep talking about it!


Sorry, I just realized I quoted Dapper instead of alex and I'm not sure how to fix that to show alex's post.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Jess

....snip....

Sorry, I just realized I quoted Dapper instead of alex and I'm not sure how to fix that to show alex's post.

Fixed

Metro

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

[AtLast]

Something that keeps coming up for me is that as a child (born in 1951), I had two friends (girls) that later transitioned into men (their identification). We grew up in a small town and to be honest, the term lesbian wasn't even part of the vocabulary there!

What has always struck me is that both of these friends at a very young age, said they felt they had the body of a female and the spirit of a male. Later as adolescents, it was body of a woman and spirit of a man. This is a phrase very common to transpeople and I believe throughout all of the levels of gender we are discussing.

This always fit for me in terms of the mind-body-spirit paradigm that just is a balancing force for me. Early in life this was simply an internal connection and place of balance and peace. Later, as science progressed in gender theory, and I was exposed to the world and education more, this became a more viable explanation for what these friends felt and struggled with. It also allowed me to ponder my own internal questions about being a masculine woman as well as dealing with my sexuality.

Sometimes when I have conversations with much younger people around all of this, I am so amazed at how far this has all come in my lifetime. Not everyone has the same three dimensional paradigm need for congruency. But, this certainly helped me understand my childhood friend's struggles and need to find their own harmony.

I do think, however, that transitioning without really investigating its many facets and risks (there are some) can be hurtful. Generalized oversimplification of this process is dangerous. I do see (and have experienced) a form of pressure within the B-F community to transition. It has become a cultural phenomenon, I believe, with a sub-culture concerning butches. There is much positive in this and there exists some negative as well in terms of really allowing a person to be who they are (has to go both ways). And as HoneyBarbara has pointed out in many posts, there exists a differences in US butches around this and other countries.

There are a whole lot of us that embrace being female-bodied and butch along with being of another gender that live in harmony and wouldn’t have it any other way. Because it is simply who we are.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't related, born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity... even know I am all they're actually separate things... just as they are for you.

Actually Metro being a woman, butch and masculine, as well as lesbian/queer, all tie together for me. So I wouldn't say they don't have any impact on each other or that they are separate for me personally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Actually Metro being a woman, butch and masculine, as well as lesbian/queer, all tie together for me. So I wouldn't say they don't have any impact on each other or that they are separate for me personally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I was using your post as a jumping off point for me to express some things I had wanted to say about my perspective.

Besides I was just saying my being GQ isn't reliant or born of my being Butch or masculine... I'm certain there's some correlation with my gender in life resulting in certain places I arrive at... (Butch, etc. etc.) there really couldn't not be.

I wasn't stating absolutes.

ETA: ...and had actually edited my post to make sure I reflected that.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I was using your post as a jumping off point for me to express some things I had wanted to say about my perspective.

Besides I was just saying my being GQ isn't reliant or born of my being Butch or masculine... I'm certain there's some correlation with my gender in life resulting in certain places I arrive at... (Butch, etc. etc.) there really couldn't not be.

I wasn't stating absolutes.

ETA: ...and had actually edited my post to make sure I reflected that.

Not all Women are Butches. Not all Third/Other Gender are Butches.

I wasn't objecting to anything in your post, just saying I don't see the various aspects of myself as not impacting each other or being separate. I don't see butch as being separate from woman for me. Glad if my post could serve as a jumping off place.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Not all Women are Butches. Not all Third/Other Gender are Butches.

I wasn't objecting to anything in your post, just saying I don't see the various aspects of myself as not impacting each other or being separate. I don't see butch as being separate from woman for me. Glad if my post could serve as a jumping off place.

That's fine Bull, I wasn't debating anything either, I'm happy that all those things and being a woman are in line for you.

Good day.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

I have said more than once in several places around the net that I claim at least 2 genders.........butch and woman being primary genders for me. I live in those 2 genders the large majority of my time.

I have also said that I do have a male id'd part of me (possibly another gender I guess) within the kink community. My leather Top/Dom space is Syr and really has nothing to do with woman and probably little to do with butch. And yes, sometimes it bites me and feels incongruent.....but I do like that space..........I just don't live it 24/7.

I rarely bottom (and don't have a submissive bone in my body) in the kink world.........when I do, I just don't think about it in terms of gender.........I think about in terms of bottom energy.

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Of course femme is also a gender.........I can't even figure why anyone would say it's not.......makes no sense to me.