The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Kobi

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I've read your various replies a couple of times and there is quite a bit that I don't understand. I picked this quote because it confuses me the most.

Please don't take this as me trying to silence you or tell you that you don't belong here because both would be wrong. This is simply me questioning for clarification.

The name of the site makes it pretty clear what it's all about. If you are not any of things the site caters to, then why join the site?

If I pulled this out of context or just completely read it wrong, please let me know!

[Kobi]

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.[/QUOTE]

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback.

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

When I say I fought to be a lesbian I mean I am from the time when gay/trans folks were not as free as they are today to express their identities, nor did they have the concepts/fluidity to developed these or pursue them with as great a regularity as now.

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

I think to reduce it to a lesbian thing only without addressing the male/female thing is a mistake. People can easily call me a misantrophe. But until you walked in my shoes, had my experiences and understand where my mistrust of male comes from, you have no right to judge me. I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

When I hear some male acknowledgement of this built in problem in our society and how it can impact on communities like this, I am willing to listen. When I get dismissed by females or males because they are not aware of or willing to admit this exists, I have a problem with it.

If this helps and it wont cuz my examples never do, my brother is gay. When I asked him and his partner about these issues and got passed the boy you women sure like to make things difficult comment.....it was very clear to me, from their perspective that trans/male id means nothing to them. At the moment, they see a mtf as a female, they see a ftm as a female. Neither is a threat because they arent real males. Not a representative sampling but an illustration of the thinking of the patriarchy.

I am not going to even address the transmen here for p***. That is incredible sexist to both male and female to objectify one for the mere purpose of a sex act. I am not trans so I was not aware there were trans communities.

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?
Are gay men flocking to spend time with me cuz I am a woman? Naw. Do I want to spend my free time with them.....depends who they are but not a lot of time. Do I perpetuate a separatist ideology....no....male kids have great toys and trucks and sports stuff and I like playing with them. Its the bigger ones who have this image and expectation of me as a woman and them as the ones in charge that bug me.

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

Anyone have any prevacid?








[/QUOTE]

[Medusa]

Responding in a darker red this time

Originally Posted by Kobi

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback.

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.
I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?


I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.


I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.


And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.


Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?

It's not outdated or wrong and you aren't alone. A great many of us on this website like our female places and revel in female energy.

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.


[/QUOTE]


[/QUOTE]

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JustJo

If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

Hey Kobi, I think I've had a quip on something similar with you for this before, but again...

I don't know how anyone could in compromise in any way who you are or negate you fight. I don't get that at all, it doesn't make sense. No one can compromise my identity and there's no limit on space here.

As far as where are the lesbians who want butch femme dynamic... just look around, there's tons of them here. I prefer big ol' damn dyke to the word lesbian but I have "identified" as a stone butch for the greater part of my life.

Which to me meant I didn't fit well in ALL lesbian dyke spaces (which are out there), it's not that they were all unwelcoming, but my life, my masculinity, attractions, like and dislikes were synced with others who are in the butch femme culture and those who walked in similar shoes. I find that connection with male ID, female ID and trans folks alike and for one see this as our hard fought for space.

Hell I would be bored - to - tears if we all were alike, with like mind and what-ever.

I say why not "honor your identity" that's hard fought for by being proud in it and making space for others who fight for space too? In the mean time yeah, this particular space seeks to welcoming and open place for all queer identities that feel a connect to the B-F dynamic. I see that as progress.

Metro

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

Hi Kobi,

I don't feel like you're on a soapbox...I feel like you're stating your mind and your heart, and I'm always in favor of that.

To the other points...yes....ALL of that bothers me. I'm 48 years old...and it frustrates me beyond all description that the ERA never passed, and everyone seems to have let it all fall by the wayside.

It bothers me that I had to go back to college for 4 years to get an MBA so that I could make the same "decent" living that a whole lot of men can make with a high school diploma.

It bothers me that while women are gaining with regard to pay equity, we are still nowhere close...and probably won't be in my working lifetime.

Lots of things bother me. Racism bothers me. Sexism bothers me. People talking to me like I'm an idiot bothers me. People who drive slow in the left lane bother me. What we're doing to our environment bothers me.

Here's the other thing though. I have to live in the world every day. If I rant at everything that bothers me every day, then I will literally die. My health can't handle that.

I value peace. I value compromise. I value getting along with others as much as possible. I value speaking my own truth and letting others speak their own too.

I don't hate men. That's an interesting position for me. I have never, in my lifetime, been able to count on a single male person for anything. I was raised by a single mother. My grandfather was a child molester that I had to defend my 4 year old cousin from when I was 16. I was gang raped at 14. I have been ripped off, lied to, molested, raped, used, belittled, humiliated, coerced and disregarded - by men.

Here's my other reality. I am the mother of a son, and I live in a world that is composed of men as well as women.

I will speak my truth, live my life and push my own agenda as far as I can, but I choose to do it without trampling over others as much as I possibly can. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. It doesn't mean I don't see injustice.

Here's what I also believe. Change ...REAL change...is slow. Very slow. That sucks, but it's reality. My son doesn't believe the crap about women being "less than" that his father and grandfather believe. In large part, that's because of who I am and how I live.

I honestly don't believe that I will see equality and the end to misogyny in my lifetime. That's a shame. However, I will do my part by living as an example of a strong, resilient, capable woman...and I will raise a son that is one step closer.

That's where I come from. It's different than where you come from, or from most (or maybe all) of the others who have posted here. I think we all have to do it in our own way. It doesn't mean that my way is more valid than yours...or vice versa.

[Corkey]

Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Kobi]

QUOTE=Medusa;116167]Responding in a darker red this time



Medusa,


[
I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.


I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?
I see exactly what you are saying. You are saying I must fit my identity into what you predetermined were my choices based on your perception of what my choices should be. After all, a butch is a butch is a butch. That is sexist, homophobic and misandriatic.


I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.

I dont see many visible lesbians. I will look harder but I see a reluctance of lesbians to come forth.
I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.
A transman who transition only to retain his identity as a lesbian? Doesnt that defeat the purpose of transitioning?

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female. If in most cases, lesbian still presupposes a gender of female, why are you trying to tell me to fit myself into a femme, butch or trans or queer gender? That doesnt make sense.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.
Agreed, all persons at any given time are works in progress.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.

You misunderstood me. I am not addressing the experience a male summarily might have or not. I am addressing how male privelege, whether is is appreciated or not, is a given. Sexism and misogyny can not be ignored whether it comes from a male perspective or a female perspective.
[

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.

You misunderstood. I said we deconstruct femme. Femme doesnt exist anymore. There is no femme as the very heart of feminine. Gone. Poof. Doesnt exist.
We need to reconceptualize the entire thing and add a masculine/male component in order to recognize your male counterpart. It is no longer the heart of feminine, it is a merge of female/male. YOU as a gender cease to exist, replaced with something more acceptable to a broader group of ids.

Femme doesnt need anything male to exist? And here I thought someone might see me as a separatist. But lesbian needs something male to exist?Whats good for the goose is good for the gander yes?
[/QUOTE]


[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

[Kobi]

Hi Jo,

You might be surprised that I agree with a lot that you say. I am 54. I am tired of being a freakin activist in my personal and public and professional life. I've fought all the battles I really want to fight. But, If I dont speak to the sexism and misogyny now and then as a reminder to people that it hasnt gone away, I am implicitly or explicitly agreeing to be a willing participant in my own victimization. It sucks the big one.

And, I dont hate men per se. I have brothers and nephews and male friends. I love them even when they are being shitheads. I am very cautious with them and suspicious of their motives.

Women being good role models for the men/males in their lives is a terrific tribute to all women. And sometimes we do accomplish more on a more to one basis because we change hearts. Changing a heart lasts generations.
You must be very proud of your son as he is of you.

I doubt we will see equality or the end of all the isms in my lifetime either.

Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hi Kobi,

I don't feel like you're on a soapbox...I feel like you're stating your mind and your heart, and I'm always in favor of that.

To the other points...yes....ALL of that bothers me. I'm 48 years old...and it frustrates me beyond all description that the ERA never passed, and everyone seems to have let it all fall by the wayside.

It bothers me that I had to go back to college for 4 years to get an MBA so that I could make the same "decent" living that a whole lot of men can make with a high school diploma.

It bothers me that while women are gaining with regard to pay equity, we are still nowhere close...and probably won't be in my working lifetime.

Lots of things bother me. Racism bothers me. Sexism bothers me. People talking to me like I'm an idiot bothers me. People who drive slow in the left lane bother me. What we're doing to our environment bothers me.

Here's the other thing though. I have to live in the world every day. If I rant at everything that bothers me every day, then I will literally die. My health can't handle that.

I value peace. I value compromise. I value getting along with others as much as possible. I value speaking my own truth and letting others speak their own too.

I don't hate men. That's an interesting position for me. I have never, in my lifetime, been able to count on a single male person for anything. I was raised by a single mother. My grandfather was a child molester that I had to defend my 4 year old cousin from when I was 16. I was gang raped at 14. I have been ripped off, lied to, molested, raped, used, belittled, humiliated, coerced and disregarded - by men.

Here's my other reality. I am the mother of a son, and I live in a world that is composed of men as well as women.

I will speak my truth, live my life and push my own agenda as far as I can, but I choose to do it without trampling over others as much as I possibly can. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. It doesn't mean I don't see injustice.

Here's what I also believe. Change ...REAL change...is slow. Very slow. That sucks, but it's reality. My son doesn't believe the crap about women being "less than" that his father and grandfather believe. In large part, that's because of who I am and how I live.

I honestly don't believe that I will see equality and the end to misogyny in my lifetime. That's a shame. However, I will do my part by living as an example of a strong, resilient, capable woman...and I will raise a son that is one step closer.

That's where I come from. It's different than where you come from, or from most (or maybe all) of the others who have posted here. I think we all have to do it in our own way. It doesn't mean that my way is more valid than yours...or vice versa.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by gayla

I've read your various replies a couple of times and there is quite a bit that I don't understand. I picked this quote because it confuses me the most.

Please don't take this as me trying to silence you or tell you that you don't belong here because both would be wrong. This is simply me questioning for clarification.

The name of the site makes it pretty clear what it's all about. If you are not any of things the site caters to, then why join the site?

If I pulled this out of context or just completely read it wrong, please let me know!

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

Oh btw, the "I" is inter-sexed, or shouldn't they be here either? Me being sarcastic.

[Kobi]

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.

Originally Posted by Corkey

Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.

Kobi, I don't know how to get this across to you, You belong here, just like everyone else who claims a LGBTIQ gender marker.

[Stoney]

WOW ..If I wanted to really stir the pot I could throw in some of my feminist, stomp the patriarchal society,secret man- hatin' semi-separatist attitude in all this but some how I have a feeling it just wouldnt fly...

I dont know about all of you but I dont really want to easily fit into a group. I want MY personal views recognized , I dont want to compromise any thing about who I am, Hell Im half way or better though with creating that person. I aint cuttin' off my corners so I can fit into that hole.
I have been living this life the longest and have the most invested in it. How can anyone tell me how Im supposed to feel and be more educated than me about me?.
Ill argue with a chauvinist till the bitter end if they wanna go.... male female, doesn't matter, it is the mentality not the body or the vehicle that person's soul rides around in.
If I dont verbally kick their ass... I will graciously thank them for the learning experience.
Seriously ,I would thank them either way. Interaction with others, finding a place of belonging is all good stuff as long as you arent swimming around in a humongous school, in uniform, only going where the head fish moves, ( hell who is the head fish anyway???

In my LIFE I'm the head fish, If people wanna follow me or not whatever, Ill take responsibility for where my path leads, whether I end up there all alone or with a bunch of fish followin me there. how many do or do not... means nothing to me.

I wanted to make a comment on a post by adorable about the cinco de mayo thing and her gf.

now.......I dont completely agree that this was dismissing of her identity.

Dumb ignorance maybe but malicious intention no.

To wish some one a happy May 5th is not a ruthless act or even an insult, it was a wish for a good day...was it not... why read in so deep wtf?'

remind me of George Carlin the cashier says" have a NICE day'.. he says" hey fuck you asshole... what if I wanna have a shitty day!!!!!"




I have found in this life that there are a lot of dummies in this world.There are folks that lack social grace, there are people that say dumb things when they are uncomfortable, In an honest attempt to do the exact opposte of dissmiss them, but to somehow acknowledge their difference in a good way, or they are curious.

kids say things like" hey mom is that a boy or a girl.... or look mom that man is wearing a dress , what do we do?? go up and slap the parents? the kid? or go home and quickly take off the dress and never go out in public again..... or maybe organize a rally against parents that dont teach their children proper ways to ignore or avoid differences in politically correct manner........

naw... hell no, it would be easier to take offense, make a comment, scare the kid, and the parent, instilling fear when there could have been simple tolerance and a smile. not an assumption that it was an insult or judgment call.

We need to get thicker skin if we expect to rough the storm of becoming the person we aspire to be. Being a non conformist is the most fightening we face as humans..because we seek relationships and love and to rock the boat might decrease our chances... we think.
then there is the obvious rude comments and actions of assholes for the sake of being assholes,

By the same token, Are ya really gonna let it fuck up your whole day? some dumb fuck head telling you how they think you should live or be or love... ???

On an assumption.......WE all assume , how else could we reason... or relate, or interpret without basing what we see on what we know to be true...? I mean ya could, but it's better to just laugh it off , or use it as an opportunity to educate the person or a chance to make a joke. why draw that kind of energy, most people dont really get it anyways and never will.

hell I weighed about 500 lbs.... people said all kinds of rude shit to me,did mean rude shit to me, ignored and made fun of, whisked their children away from me , treated me like I was mentally incompetent, an idiot and even a freak and the fact I was a woman AND a dyke didnt help much either....Ya think?

Yeah Im a feminist, I reject the attitude of the patriarchal society, I embrace "MY" womanhood I will fight and strive to empower myself my sisters . Does that mean I cant honor your world? no It doesnt ... but it may be that I dont understand it ....or just plain dont or cant relate to it,because it is not for me doesnt make it wrong,

But For me to jumble all men into a pile ( although tempting) JK..... makes me no better informed than the ignorant people who (if I so choose to entertain their uneducated opinion of me) insult and belittle or..choose to devalue my womanhood.

There are spaces fo r" women' only for those women that feel the need for that commonality or empowerment, I love womyns community my feminine SPIRIT is nurtured by that energy....maybe yours is not.... but truely before we can jump on others perception of us we need to find how it is we feel about ourselves. How much of what others think about you makes you who you are?, are you what people define you as or are you really the person you think you are?. Who's runnin this circus?

It aint the 8th clown out of the car, thats probably a given.

We need to lighten up on each other, no matter what, we are all on our own journey...every word you say effects my journey in the way I determine consciously or unconsciously...and the same is for all of us.

I choose to not be a clown.... but that doesn't mean a circus doesn't need a clown.
there are plenty of people to fill that position though out this life.....the story of me: and of you.

The circus really wouldnt be as much fun with out them would it?

I'm gonna be a feminist and activist for the long haul, dont think it will change , I will argue with men who wish to argue and debate with me probably till my spirit soars from this body . Im not dismissing anyone when I say I have always felt their were two kinds of people in this world....women and their children.

Cant say that isnt true, now can we.
peace all!
Stoney

[Kobi]

June,

Thanks. I am feeling heard and this is good. I still dont get some stuff but thats cool too. Am trying to be open minded and absorb what I can, filter things thru my own prejudices, preferences, and beliefs.

AARP says I need to do mentality tasks to starve off dementia. Today was good for a few more years. LOL.

Originally Posted by June

Hi, Kobi --

I wanted to say this out loud to you, and to everyone who is participating so thoughtfully and being patient with each other even though this is a frustrating and very difficult topic.

I *know* you. And when I say that, I mean, I know (and love) many women like you. Women who have spent decades fighting for a place at the table, in the Boardroom, in the bedroom. Women who gave up a lot so that in my middle 30's, I could waltz out into the world as a Lesbian/Femme/Queer person and be reasonably sure I wasn't going to lose my job, my house and my child.

I want you to know, I am hearing you and seeing you hanging in there to figure this out. If you are looking for women born women only space, this will not be the place for you. If you are looking for a smart, eclectic, infuriating, fascinating online community, then yeah, welcome home.

We (many of us) do forget that it has been traditionally the Lesbians and the Feminists who took on the often thankless and more often low paid jobs in the social services arena to make the world safer and more just for other women and the children. Men have also done this work, but by and large, those cogs have been turned by women. I understand that someone entering into a community such as this could feel cast aside in some regards, but perhaps, if you can think of us as your liberated, unruly, sarcastic progeny, many of us out there doing out own form of activism based on the principles you and others laid as the foundation, it will help you to feel more at ease.

--June

[Medusa]

Kobi,

I wanted to address the quote above as well as a quote from your last post to me.

Kobi said: "I see exactly what you are saying. You are saying I must fit my identity into what you predetermined were my choices based on your perception of what my choices should be. After all, a butch is a butch is a butch. That is sexist, homophobic and misandriatic. "


I wasn't actually saying that your identity needed to fit into a box. I was saying that this website is ButchFemmePlanet.com. It caters to Lesbians, Queers, Genderfuckers, and other colorful people who identify as Butch, Femme, Trans, Stud, Diva, etc. etc. etc.
You said you identify as a Butch - that means that you belong here.
When you were asking about a "Lesbian" Zone, I was trying to illustrate the thought process behind why I built the zones that I did when we first built the site.
Having a Lesbian zone is redundant to me. This IS a website for Lesbians who identify as Butch, Femme, Stud, Diva, etc, but nevertheless, we added a zone for people who identify as Lesbian. It's there, it's open, and people are posting there.

This website caters to a special set of people. Unlike Lesbianation.com or pinksofa.com or planetsappho.com or grrl2grrl.com or any of the other websites that cater specifically to Lesbian women in a women-only space, we cater specifically to a Butch and Femme populace that includes a plethora of identities. (and this is where male-identified Butches, boi-identified Femmes, Trans men, Trans women, and genderfuckers come in)

We are never going to be a website only for women and women-identified people. Those websites already exist. We are never going to just ignore, marginalize, or throw away the large percentage of our membership who identify as males, who live as males, who have lived as males, or who live as something they haven't yet defined but that may one day be male in order to feel "safe". I don't think we have to do that. I think that to be safe, we need to learn to help each other, learn to understand each other, learn to embrace each other.
The throwing away? Not so much.

We are never going to do that. We are also never going to do shitty things like have events in places that male-identified people and Transpeople aren't welcome to. That includes MichFest (unless their policy has changed) and Olivia cruises.
Because guess what? All of the people who come here are valued, loved, and needed for this to be the awesome place that it is. That includes you, Kobi.


I also wanted to address this:

Originally Posted by Kobi

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

I just wanted to say that it doesn't matter who I define Butch or how Dylan defines Butch or how Adele defines Butch or how UofMfan defines Butch. It matters how YOU define it for yourself, and guess what? However you define it is correct. Just like UofMfan's way of defining it is correct. Just like Jackhammer's way of defining it is correct.

This has been a tough conversation but I think this is always worth it. I like understanding new people and I like being expanded by how other people think. That's hot.

m

[Gayla]

Kobi -

I am almost 44. I've been out for a very long time. I've been involved in lesbian, feminist, separatist communities/politics/activism since I was, essentially, a child. I "get" your experiences in ways that many people may not because mine have been very similar. I've fought for "women space". I've marched in the streets, spoken at rallies, been published numerous times, had my name smeared in many different places. I embraced my lesbian identity with everything I had including my Birkenstocks, labrys earring and Chris Williamson albums. I cried the day I found out Holly Near was sleeping with a man and I cheered the day kd lang hit the cover of GQ. Up until I moved to Seattle, every job I've had was in some way seen as a professional queer. I've worked in non-profits, worked in a feminist bookstore, managed a gay/lesbian bookstore, owned a gay bar, and worked as a therapist in an inpatient chemical dependency treatment center that only served gay & lesbian clients.

So yeah, I "get" it and we come from places of common reference points.

Based on those reference points, I guess I'm still not really understanding what it is about the site that makes you question whether you belong here. There's never been a time in my life where I wasn't butch, even when it was seen as a negative in the lesbian-feminist community. It's as much a part of me as my big ears and the mole on my left shoulder. So when I see an online community that is called "Butch Femme Planet", there is no doubt that this is a place for me.

Yes, there is a huge amount of diversity in this community. There are people here that are just like me and a bunch that are very different. Knowing that other people don't share my same definitions, beliefs and values about "what butch is" doesn't diminish my place in the community or in any way make me see myself as other or not belonging.

You've talked about a lot of different things, and I know you've mentioned a few different things in different contexts, but I really am curious about what types of things, to you and others that feel the same way, lead you to think you don't belong here?

[Daryn]

ugh.. edited because of accidentally duplication ... next post is it

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa, my dear, you (and Jack) are wonderful..... and thanks for your commitment to inclusivity.

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Kobi

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

WOW. It sounds like you think there is only one definition of butch on this site and I bet there are well more than half a dozen. It sounds like you want one definition of butch that matches how you see yourself as butch. It's never been that way for as long as I can remember and that's more than 35 years of being OUT.