2020 Presidential Election

[kittygrrl]

I have never seen Bernie in a good mood EVER..just my limited observation but it bothers me...he's rude to supporters at times. His campaign 2016 was embarrassingly absent of any real diversity..o yeah, this time he's cleaning up his act, but do i believe he's changed??, no not really he's 77. It's time for him to give a chance to the younger generation, he's had his turn and he (no longer) has a monopoly on free college and healthcare ideals...we need some fresh air..

[kittygrrl]

I hear Bernie did well at Fox News Town Hall..that was a bold move.

[dark_crystal]

Progressives DO NOT like Mayor Pete. He is getting criticized for his media coverage, his whitleblower position, his immigration position, his child care tax credit, and his frequent mentions of religion.

I have concerns about progressive calls to keep religion out of politics.

As much as that should be the ideal, religion is kicking our asses-- and has been for a couple of decades.

I feel like this is an area where there is a divide between the so-called "coastal elites" and the so-called "heartland."

I do not think progressive state people fully appreciate the influence religion has in the "heartland."

I am sure progressive state residents understand about fundamentalists and have seen JESUS CAMP and have run into Westboro and Operation Rescue at clinic defense, but all of that is kicked up about one thousand percent down here.

I do not think people who don't live/have not lived in the Bible Belt understand the intensity and ubiquity of some very extreme ideas, or the high degree of respect these ideas get even by people who don't practice them.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

Progressives DO NOT like Mayor Pete. He is getting criticized for his media coverage, his whitleblower position, his immigration position, his child care tax credit, and his frequent mentions of religion.

I have concerns about progressive calls to keep religion out of politics.

As much as that should be the ideal, religion is kicking our asses-- and has been for a couple of decades.

I feel like this is an area where there is a divide between the so-called "coastal elites" and the so-called "heartland."

I do not think progressive state people fully appreciate the influence religion has in the "heartland."

I am sure progressive state residents understand about fundamentalists and have seen JESUS CAMP and have run into Westboro and Operation Rescue at clinic defense, but all of that is kicked up about one thousand percent down here.

I do not think people who don't live/have not lived in the Bible Belt understand the intensity and ubiquity of some very extreme ideas, or the high degree of respect these ideas get even by people who don't practice them.

I agree with much of what you say, dark crystal. In my experience, one of the biggest divides between the so-called coastal elites and the alleged heartland is around being comfortable speaking about faith. One of the reasons why Mayor Pete is gaining ground amongst improbable supporters is because he speaks simply and authentically about his own personal faith. His authenticity as a Christian is really quite compelling to many. When progressives expect others to stay away from speaking about their own faith they appear to be plugging up the fountain of comfort for everyone else, as if there's something about it that should embarrass them, and that drives Americans away in droves. You can call those faith-driven people inhabitants of the 'heartland' if you like, and there probably are more of them in the southern and mid-western states, but I honestly don't think Christianity is a geographic phenomenon in the US.

Authentic faith isn't trotted out for a photo op or an election strategy. It just...is. Failure to recognize that is how we lose elections.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I do not think progressive state people fully appreciate the influence religion has in the "heartland."

I am sure progressive state residents understand about fundamentalists and have seen JESUS CAMP and have run into Westboro and Operation Rescue at clinic defense, but all of that is kicked up about one thousand percent down here.

I do not think people who don't live/have not lived in the Bible Belt understand the intensity and ubiquity of some very extreme ideas, or the high degree of respect these ideas get even by people who don't practice them.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I agree with much of what you say, dark crystal. In my experience, one of the biggest divides between the so-called coastal elites and the alleged heartland is around being comfortable speaking about faith. One of the reasons why Mayor Pete is gaining ground amongst improbable supporters is because he speaks simply and authentically about his own personal faith. His authenticity as a Christian is really quite compelling to many. When progressives expect others to stay away from speaking about their own faith they appear to be plugging up the fountain of comfort for everyone else, as if there's something about it that should embarrass them, and that drives Americans away in droves.

C. Stroop: Escape from Jesus Land: On Recognizing Evangelical Abuse and Finding the Strength to Reject the Faith of Our Fathers

Filial duty–a concept that likely seems quaint to the majority of people familiar with the names of intellectuals like Lakoff and Haidt–is a hard thing to shake when you come from a patriarchal religious background. The extent to which family loyalty, and specifically loyalty to fathers, prevails in “flyover country,” and, indeed, wherever conservative Christian enclaves exist in America, may come as a shock to many people who grew up in liberal and/or “coastal elite” families, because, for them, it is simply very difficult to imagine.

Having grown up in a very conservative state in an evangelical enclave, I continue to be surprised precisely at how surprised many Americans are at the prevailing extremism that passes for “normal” in Jesus Land. As the reactions to the revival of the #ChristianAltFacts hashtag on Twitter and the personal experiences of many exvangelicals show, things that are “normal” for evangelicals can often be shocking to those who do not know much about the subculture we come from.

I think it’s important for liberal Americans who do not come from a patriarchal religious background to hear our stories and to sit with that shock. Why? Because I remain convinced that if American civil society and the American press fail to come to grips with just how radically theocratic the Christian Right is, any kind of post-Trump soft landing scenario in which American democracy recovers a healthy degree of functionality is highly unlikely.

To put it another way, you may not come from Jesus Land, USA, but Jesus Land is coming for you. We will all be subjected to theocratic dystopia, to “one kleptocracy under God,” if we don’t stop the Christian Right.

The Christian Right has been able to acquire massively disproportionate power in part because the press has allowed evangelicals’ slick, code switching PR spin doctors–such as the Southern Baptist Convention’s Russell “journalists never ask me about my view that feminism is a heresy” Moore–to frame the national discussion of evangelicalism. The result is that the readers of major news outlets are presented with an unrealistically benign picture of a darkly authoritarian, cult-like branch of Protestantism.

"major news outlets are presented with an unrealistically benign picture" is what stands out to me here.

Down here in the Bible Belt, esp. in the cities, there are huge numbers of people who nominally identify as Christians but don't go to church.

Those people also view religion as universally benign. Evangelicals-- especially the women-- have a very wide-eyed pose that tearfully whimpers "all we want to do is raise wholesome families and save little babies how could anyone possibly have a problem with that????" and their nominally-Christian-but-don't-attend-church neighbors are very impressed by that.

These people are even harder to reach than the die-hards, because they don't have a working knowledge of Scripture but do feel the cultural prohibition around poking at it. You can quote scripture at a die-hard and get a response, but quote scripture at the nominally Christian and they just run away.

This is that "filial duty" Stroop mentions above. They don't know much of anything about their religion and they don't practice it but they're not about to question it. Not necessarily because they lack critical thinking skills in general, but because of "the extent to which family loyalty, and specifically loyalty to fathers, prevails"

[Martina]

I grew up with Evangelical aunts and cousins, but fortunately not parents. I grew up in small town Ohio, so not a coastal elite. And I STILL find it hard to understand how people can accept these beliefs, versions of Christian nationalism. I don't understand how people who believe in demons were able to look at Donald Rumsfeld and not see Beelzebub. I don't get it.

[kittygrrl]

i just hope we all can remember that the true intentions of the Democratic Party is to elect Trump out, i hope the liberal base will keep in mind that Socialism is not a popular idea among moderates and will definitely fire up Trumps mob...i get very concerned that the AOC part of the party is bordering on the lunatic fringe if they feel an ultra liberal candidate will win the presidency..even with my limited IQ it's obvious he/she wouldn't. Don't get me wrong i'd love to be 28 and full of !8&^%! but (having unreachable ideals in this day of 22 trillion dollar debt) won't pay the bills or make me more free..so i'm voting moderate in the primary

[BullDog]

[Martina]

Bernie is the most popular candidate right now. I really don't think he reads like a scary radical, and the same populism, minus the racism and social Conservatism, is what got Trump elected. There are folks who voted Trump who are now supporting Bernie. No idea what the numbers are, but some are pretty vocal. People HATED Hillary. Not just didn't like or were unimpressed by. They HATED her. Some of that was sexism. But a lot of it was that she was in so many ways more of the same. I am not sure people are as hungry for change since Trump, and the Dems have appropriated the Bernie message (which is great), so we won't be in the same position again. I do think Bernie can reach mainstream voters. I don't have any concerns about that if he can make it through the primary. That, IMO, is a crapshoot. You never know what will happen out there.

[ksrainbow]

The Dem's hit the 20* mark to date.

My vision is not 20/20 with either eye ... left/right/center etc. Tis why I medically wear trifocals.

My peripheral vision remains intact for the time being.

Ks-

[BullDog]

I'm on a few political email lists and somehow I end up with emails from a bunch of people like Bernie Sanders, Beto (like tons a day asking for money), Kamala Harris, etc.

Interesting today. Beto talking about how he needs money more than ever now that Biden is in the race,

Bernie - there's only one Bernie to save the day and the establishment is all against us.

Then there was Kamala Harris - my friend Joe Biden has entered the race. Great the more the merrier, I look forward to debating the issues.

Now that is smart and appeals to me. I think a Biden/Harris ticket would be great. I would rather she was the presidential candidate but I think Biden has a much better chance to beat Trump, but the two of them together would be great. I liked Biden's video. I think he can go for the jugular with Trump but still have something to offer beyond just negativity.

It's very likely that the emails were written by staff, but they are coming from the campaigns and represent the candidates. Two of them sounded like they were coming from small-minded, insecure people (and Bernie always thinks he's such a special snowflake). Kamala sounded confident and classy.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm on a few political email lists and somehow I end up with emails from a bunch of people like Bernie Sanders, Beto (like tons a day asking for money), Kamala Harris, etc.

Interesting today. Beto talking about how he needs money more than ever now that Biden is in the race,

Bernie - there's only one Bernie to save the day and the establishment is all against us.

Then there was Kamala Harris - my friend Joe Biden has entered the race. Great the more the merrier, I look forward to debating the issues.

Now that is smart and appeals to me. I think a Biden/Harris ticket would be great. I would rather she was the presidential candidate but I think Biden has a much better chance to beat Trump, but the two of them together would be great. I liked Biden's video. I think he can go for the jugular with Trump but still have something to offer beyond just negativity.

It's very likely that the emails were written by staff, but they are coming from the campaigns and represent the candidates. Two of them sounded like they were coming from small-minded, insecure people (and Bernie always thinks he's such a special snowflake). Kamala sounded confident and classy.

I'm impressed by Harris, too. No, I don't think her terrible choices while she was DA disqualify her. I'm far more impressed by Elizabeth Warren and her dazzling array of specific plans. No, I don't care that she made a serious misstep by claiming Native American ancestry.

My fantasy ticket would be Warren/Harris. Yup, it's a fantasy, but I'll be unhappy if neither of those women ultimately end up on the 2020 Dem ticket.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I'm impressed by Harris, too. No, I don't think her terrible choices while she was DA disqualify her. I'm far more impressed by Elizabeth Warren and her dazzling array of specific plans. No, I don't care that she made a serious misstep by claiming Native American ancestry.

My fantasy ticket would be Warren/Harris. Yup, it's a fantasy, but I'll be unhappy if neither of those women ultimately end up on the 2020 Dem ticket.

I like Warren too, but I don't think she can win.

But yeah Warren and Harris would be awesome.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Martina

I grew up with Evangelical aunts and cousins, but fortunately not parents. I grew up in small town Ohio, so not a coastal elite. And I STILL find it hard to understand how people can accept these beliefs, versions of Christian nationalism. I don't understand how people who believe in demons were able to look at Donald Rumsfeld and not see Beelzebub. I don't get it.

It really is about obedience and conformity. We were literally brainwashed as children, exposed to so much horrifying rhetoric, that there is a visceral repulsion that rises up when one of us is put in a position where we might find ourselves at odds with the way we were raised.

It is not rational. And people who are outside of it tend to dismiss it or roll their eyes because it seems so babyish. Outsiders think critical thinking or common sense should be self-evident to us, but there are literal blind spots built into our brains from birth.

There are things which are placed beyond question, and this process is largely concluded before we even start school. We have no idea those blind spots exist and we have no way to see them working when they are active.

Facts and logic aren't going to help, because loyalty is stronger.

Converting these people cannot be our goal, but it would behoove us to do outreach and show them that the government we want is not a threat to them. When we roll our eyes at their ignorance or dismiss them as a vote we can afford to lose, we support the rhetoric-- rhetoric that is pouring into their ears 24/7 and blasted from the pulpit every Sunday-- that says we are coming to destroy them.

We ignore most of this rhetoric, because it is ridiculous. When we're not ignoring it, we try to argue from their terms, quoting scriptures that should clearly contradict that rhetoric. Neither of these tactics are ever going to work.

What we need to do is create a viable substitute rhetoric. Democrats need to show that the government we will build includes a respected position-- and a valuable and valued role-- for faith communities, and we need to build a productive channel for their energy. It may not be anything they will ever support, but it can be something they needn't fear.

When they hear from the Pastor that we want to destroy them, and then hear from us that we want their help, the result we are after is not to change their vote, but to suppress it through paralyzing cognitive dissonance. We need to continually be dumping sand on the fires their leaders are trying to feed.

Yes, i said voter suppression. The method of voter suppression i outlined above seems ethically fine to me. Maybe I'm wrong.

[kittygrrl]

Bernie's support of felons serving out their sentence should have the right to vote is nuts.

[Martina]

Every American citizen should have the right to vote.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by Martina

Every American citizen should have the right to vote.

I have to agree with you Martina!

A felon is paying for a crime by serving time in a prision facility, the felon did not lose their citizenship because they are paying for or have paid for a crime. What does that really say to people...”you have to follow the rules, pay for your crime, and then become a non person?”

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

I have to agree with you Martina!

A felon is paying for a crime by serving time in a prision facility, the felon did not lose their citizenship because they are paying for or have paid for a crime. What does that really say to people...”you have to follow the rules, pay for your crime, and then become a non person?”

Sometimes, concepts that others see as correct paths, seem tortuous and illogical to me. The felon, serving or who has served time in prison, is still a citizen. Why take certain civil rights away from people that the corrections system is attempting to "rehabilitate?" Should we, instead, be "role models," exhibiting "good American citizen behavior?" It is known that people involved in criminal activities do not vote in large numbers.

Also, here's a PI idea in the tone of Jonathan Swift. Perhaps, the Feds could begin administering Intelligence and Common Sense tests to ALL citizens registering to vote...no...in elementary school. Common sense testing might help us avoid some of the nitwit imbeciles who elect Presidents like Tr**p.

[C0LLETTE]

If Trump isn't paying Kellyanne Conway at least $5,000,000 per year, he is seriously underpaying her. She easily runs roughshod over every "adversarial" interviewer, particularly on CNN.

I don't even know why they invite her. She's a spewing propaganda machine that skillfully sidesteps all their questions and then floods out all her irrelevant talking points without taking an interruptible breath.

It's painful to watch.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

If Trump isn't paying Kellyanne Conway at least $5,000,000 per year, he is seriously underpaying her. She easily runs roughshod over every "adversarial" interviewer, particularly on CNN.

I don't even know why they invite her. She's a spewing propaganda machine that skillfully sidesteps all their questions and then floods out all her irrelevant talking points without taking an interruptible breath.

It's painful to watch.

We had to stop watching CNN...partially for this reason, and partially because i no longer care for the constant bickering. I read and watch a variety of news sources, but my go to top 2 are Fox News and MSNBC (love me some RM), although the BBC news is sometimes a better source of reality.

Kelly Ann has always been a source of frustration for me, and life is too short to give the bitch my attention.

On a side note, I find it refreshing that Mayor Pete is not shying away from talking about religion...so many in this country (especially middle America) find their religion to be interwoven in all areas of their lives.

They may not like the gay, but he can talk to their fears about the “commies” making everyone Muslim. **

** I have relatives that actually believe that crap.