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Old 10-09-2010, 03:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gemme View Post
Maturity, unlike beauty, is not in the eye of the beholder I think. For me, maturity is the manifestation of personal growth and the choices that come from that place. One can feel it, but the title is frivolous if not bestowed by someone else.

Do I spend my check on booze or girls/guys or material things that may or may not bring me pleasure, temporary or permanent?

or....

Do I spend my check on bills and put something in savings and place priority on the things I want over the long haul versus the short term?

Do I tailgate some minivan because it's not going as fast as I would like and then pass them in a no passing zone with my finger waving proud and loud in the air?

or...

Do I take a breath and realize that life won't end if I miss one of the trailers before the movie?

Do I purposefully hurt/degrade/bully another because I see they are vulnerable?

or...

Do I purposefully attempt to engage said person kindly or, at the very least, leave them alone?

These are just examples of course, but it comes down to...for me...being considerate of others, planning for the future, being if not kind then at least not cruel, and living your life as if it's something meaningful to you.

Maturity, to me, means acting like a damn grown up. Sure, some of us are firmly in touch with our inner children. I've participated in food fights and about 2 minutes ago, taunted my honey with the animal crackers, making the appropriate sounds while he was on the phone with a client. BUT--I didn't speak loud enough for the client to hear, since you don't mess with someone's livelihood...you just don't, and I helped clean up after the fight.

I can be as evolved, internally, as I want and then some, but until it comes through in my actions, I'm not there yet no matter my age, gender or identity.

You are so correct! Although brain chemistry, developmental markers attained as well as the onset of puberty (for both females and males) and menopause and male climacteric stages do relate to human maturity (and beyond)... chronological age, use of hormone therapy, gender identification are not on the same level (playing field, so to speak) in terms of biophysiological manifestations of maturation.

Personally and as a social and behavioral scientist, I sometimes want to choke on US societal norms that have been traditionally skewed toward more acceptance of male immaturity and there is a lot of research in the literature exposing this. Although, the US has quite a record of continued adolescent behavior being tolerated. And fergoddesssakes... look at all of the ethnic, racial, class variances in terms of this!

I have to also stand with Chancie about broad generalizations about femmes or butches, TG/IG people. There is no way I could make any kind of statement about maturity levels based upon any of these simply by the people I happen to now, have known, or will know. I would be stuck on stupid as well as trying to project my own background and personality make-up as somehow "expert" in making these assumptions. And I am a licensed clinician and when practicing, it was my ethical duty to keep up with the literature.

Antidotal, personal observations, even from the most learned are biased and end up being inaccurate which is why scientific inquiry has a method of investigation- to help weed out the biases we all just have.

I’m really not trying to come off as an educated elitist at all- I just get frustrated with shoot from the hip kinds of assumptions about human behavior and personality development, including my own which have their own skews.
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by rlin View Post
this brings me back to another comparison...
introspection... could that have anything to do with what i am talking about?
are femmes this way too? is this a butch thing? that i just dont look inside me that often? pardon.... or i just never did until recently...

i dont know why i keep tying this up with gender... i think because maybe when i look in the mirror recently i address myself and my mind flows in directions that make me think of the fact that i am butch... as if maybe this helped to keep my from taking a close look at myself... even tho i have always thought and acted as if i were damned proud of being butch...

this is a personal response to this part of your post, rlin.

my creds: im 53, have been out since i was 14 and have never been much good at being a girl, am now into my 8th(?) year of transition.

i don't know that being butch plays into introspection much. i have always, from the time i was very young, been introspective. i've always read a lot and "tried on" different perspectives and thought processes to see how they fit with (i suppose) my experience and view of the world, however limited it was at any particular time.

my dad told me once (i think somewhere in my 30s) that i was more honest about myself and with myself than most people are. he told me that makes others uncomfortable because it compels them to have a look at themselves. i'm not sure how true that is, but it made sense to me.

have you had a look to see what's brought you to looking more closely at yourself, who you are and your place in the world?
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:42 PM   #23
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My response is this. I know that maturity has nothing to do with gender, sexuality or how some identify. Maturity comes from self examination, life experiences and knowledge of the world at large. The more one examines their actions, responses to others actions and teases apart the why's and wherefores of said actions the more one can come to conclusions that are based in reality. When folks come to maturity is based on their own experiences. I can tell you at the age of 17 I became fully maturated, but you may not believe me. That would not be something that is provable, but it is definitely my reality.
Good topic.
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:05 PM   #24
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Great post Gemme... I love it!

I personally believe that life experiences can greatly hinder or benefit someone in their maturity growth. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. I left at the age of 17 to learn what it was like to be "normal" for me. To this day I visit sparsely and know that I have worked hard to become the mature and self-functioning independent woman I am today. I persevered and by surrounding myself with people I could look up to I have matured in to the woman I am today. Possibly someone who grew up in a more loving, nurturing family would have matured faster than I did because they would have the right role models to assist in that? I dont know... That is another thought to ponder. I missed out on a lot because of that. To this day I dont have a mother (she passed away when I was 19), a father (he also passed away when I was 19) or sisters or brothers that I would feel comfortable calling for advice. Does that hinder me? Yes. But it is what I "DO" with my life to persevere beyond those limitations that matters to me.

I know both femmes of my age and much younger than I that are as mature, more mature and less mature than I am. Same with butches. My Sir is younger than I am yet in many ways he is much older and wiser than I am. Maybe that is because I believe he has an old soul. Whatever the reason is, I could not and would not compare femmes to butches in maturity growth. In my humble opinion they, femmes and butches, can not be put into one category of more mature or less mature than the other. It is really a personal journey.

I also dont agree that butches equate to male. So I dont think you can use the same analogy of girls mature faster than boys. It just doesn't fit in the same category as femme and butch. Again, I feel it is ones own internal self awareness that reflects their maturity level.

Sorry if this rambles... I am trying to compile my thoughts in a room full of 50 women scrapbooking
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Old 10-09-2010, 07:35 PM   #25
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Wondering if other people believe their maturation was influenced by birth order?

Also, as a FIB, I just can't relate to masculine maturity in any shape or form. No, I don't mean this as anything snide. Yes, I was not what most girls should be, but, I just viewed myself as a different kind of girl (still do). I can relate to some ethnic distinctions between how female and female children can be raised and their maturity measured by their parents/care-takers. But, this would also have been tainted in my life just because of being raised in the accepted "mans world" paradigm of my age group. I don't know how relevant this would be to younger members. I can relate to masculine maturation and development as a parent of a male child, however.

Last edited by AtLast; 10-09-2010 at 07:42 PM. Reason: added something
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Old 10-09-2010, 07:41 PM   #26
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Wondering if other people believe their maturation was influenced by birth order?

Also, as a FIB, I just can't relate to masculine maturity in any shape or form. No, I don't mean this as anything snide. Yes, I was not what most girls should be, but, I just viewed myself as a different kind of girl (still do). I can relate to some ethnic distinctions between how female and female children can be raised and their maturity measured by their parents/care-takers. But, this would also have been tainted in my life just because of being raised in the accepted "mans world" paradigm of my age group. I don't know how relevant this would be to younger members.
Birth order, nah, it doesn't explain it in terms of adoption. If that were true my brother should have matured faster than me, he didn't.
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Old 10-09-2010, 08:02 PM   #27
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Birth order, nah, it doesn't explain it in terms of adoption. If that were true my brother should have matured faster than me, he didn't.
I agree, partly. As the youngest and born nearly ten years after my older siblings, I can see differences in expectations of maturity. Also, things like not being taken seriously as the "baby of the family." But, on thye hand, having a serious ethnic expectation of being the child responsible for my parents as they aged as the youngest female (especially as an "unmarried" female). My older siblings each had particular role expectations based upon our ethnicity as well. But, there could be similiar things like this for others, I think, based on birth order.

Thinking about how very different my parents were when they had the first child- their maturity levels- fromtwhen I came along. So many things had changed outside of their own ages. For one thing, they did not have the same economic worries and I do think that I did not have some of the same expectations of responsibility expected of me as early as my sisters and brother. For example, we all had paying part-time jobs by the age of 12. However, my older siblings contributed their earning to the family as a whole. I got to keep the money I earned. Well, I had to put most of it in a bank account (for college), but could spend some weekly on things like going to the movies.

I do think I got away with some things as a teenager that my siblings didn't and that this did cause them to become more responsible at younger ages than myself. How it feels, anyway. LOL... perhaps they brain washed me into believing this!
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:17 AM   #28
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i read all these thoughts when i asked this question... and i learned from them...

while bopping around the site today i ran into this thread and re read the responses...

i just want to say that there are some damned smart folks up in this site...
i really appreciate the fact that i have a place where i can ask a question and get so many varied and intelligent forms of input... these answers covered just about every thought process i could imagine possible... i am damned impressed...

you folks rock!
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