Men with boobs.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

Absolutely!

The term emasculate is just one more in the never ending linguistic bashing of women. The patriarchy at its male privileged, better-than female finest!

Feminine and female is not weak or ineffective, and as the center of life, thus of spirit, and a powerful force!

For me, butch as it stems from the feminine is a very unique form of masculinity. It is not the same as what people coming into this world male are socialized as.

Yes, this a personal take. And no, it is not anti-male or masculine. Just how I put together female-masculinity as a butch.

Feminization has long been viewed in our culture as negative. Think about how the term effeminate is used most often.

Yes, I love Dusa's idea about a threat concerning language!! sometimes I feel like the limitations of the English language gets us into so many problems with these kinds of discussions. Then there is how we have been socialized as females/women.... and it makes me crazy to see so much of the negative language and socialization we have endured get integrated into the B-F dynamic.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"
It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.

No it isn't the same conversation at all (in red, above). I can't speak for anyone else in terms of the posts, but, there is something going on here. I know I came back to the thread and posted my last post due to my tummy knotting some about blame or perceived blame of femmes concerning use of pronouns. That is the reason I posted about the butch organization as an example of disrespect of identifications even though it was about hy and hym. To me, it's about pronouns, not which ones.

I have had other butches call me he, etc., outside of the site. I correct them, too. Sometimes I get weird looks as if I am demoting myself! I can't tell you how many times I have gotten, but, you are so masculine. WTF??? yes, and its feminine-masculinity that I am very proud of.

I have to say that as much as I love the B-F dynamic and have met some great people here (and on the old site), I often feel put down for being female-identified. But it goes beyond butch- I have found this community to just be one of the most anti-woman/female communities and sexist I have ever been acquainted with. I am speaking more to off-line situations as I have found online members that are not like this and obviously we gravitate toward each other- both butches & femmes. This hurts a lot because I am butch and I am not trans, either. I don't fit in the lesbian community really. I used to until I accepted and gained comfort with my butch identity far later than most). Although, I do know a group within tthe lesbian community I am around that is very accepting of my being a butch and preferring femmes overall (the person's character is what really counts with me in terms of romantic relationships and it seems like femmes come in every type!). this is within our queer dance community here in the Bay Area.

So, yes, this is a conversation to have, I think because you are not the only femme contributing here that has felt something is amiss. That is reason enough! Besides, I'll learn something, I always do and the fact of the matter is that I have not lived my entire life as a butch.... or a lesbian. And it seems like its a subject that can be covered by all butches and our Trans/IG members.

So, I say put the question(s) right on out there!

PS- I know Bully and I just don’t believe she meant those statements from a place of negativity- but she will have to answer for herself.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Absolutely!

The term emasculate is just one more in the never ending linguistic bashing of women. The patriarchy at its male privileged, better-than female finest!

Feminine and female is not weak or ineffective, and as the center of life, thus of spirit, and a powerful force!

For me, butch as it stems from the feminine is a very unique form of masculinity. It is not the same as what people coming into this world male are socialized as.

Yes, this a personal take. And no, it is not anti-male or masculine. Just how I put together female-masculinity as a butch.

Feminization has long been viewed in our culture as negative. Think about how the term effeminate is used most often.

Yes, I love Dusa's idea about a threat concerning language!! sometimes I feel like the limitations of the English language gets us into so many problems with these kinds of discussions. Then there is how we have been socialized as females/women.... and it makes me crazy to see so much of the negative language and socialization we have endured get integrated into the B-F dynamic.

Yes, I agree with this post and your other one AtLast. Femininity is viewed as negative.

I think it is very important to examine the language, and underlying attitudes, that is used for describing butches and women overall. No one here is placing blame on any one particular group of people (i.e. femmes) or something one particular person said.

There is this subtle, and many times not so subtle message, within butch femme communities that if you are male identified or you are butch (no matter how you identify) that the worse thing in the world is to be female and a woman. That and internalized homophobia is where we got to the male defaults in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with male identified butches at all.

Why do people use terms like emasculate and feminize (which I hear coming from butches and trans men just as much as femmes) when male identified butches and trans men's pronouns, gender or sexual boundaries are not respected? Your identity and boundaries are not being respected for who you are, but it's not a crime to be a woman. It's transphobia and misogyny at work and just plain disrespect to you as a person. I'd like more male identified people and others when they see these forms of behavior call that out instead of getting insulted that people are trying to emasculate them or feminize them (treat them like a "woman").

How can someone emasculate or feminize someone by how they refer to them or how someone is touched? I don't believe the way someone refers to you or touches you "feminizes" or "masculinizes" (we only hear about "feminizes") you. Your femininity and masculinity is yours. You own it.

I am a stone butch and my boundaries and sexual preferences have absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." When one particular ex of mine (who isn't on this website or last website) tried to say I wasn't butch when she was mad I told her flat out- I am butch and you can't take that away from me.

There is lots and lots of anti-woman language and attitudes in our culture. Unfortunately it is very evident in butch femme culture as well. Everyone's gender, pronouns and sexuality should be respected, but it is not a horrible thing to be a woman and butch women embrace their masculinity just as male identified butches do.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, I agree with this post and your other one AtLast. Femininity is viewed as negative.

I think it is very important to examine the language, and underlying attitudes, that is used for describing butches and women overall. No one here is placing blame on any one particular group of people (i.e. femmes) or something one particular person said.

There is this subtle, and many times not so subtle message, within butch femme communities that if you are male identified or you are butch (no matter how you identify) that the worse thing in the world is to be female and a woman. That and internalized homophobia is where we got to the male defaults in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with male identified butches at all.

Why do people use terms like emasculate and feminize (which I hear coming from butches and trans men just as much as femmes) when male identified butches and trans men's pronouns, gender or sexual boundaries are not respected? Your identity and boundaries are not being respected for who you are, but it's not a crime to be a woman. It's transphobia and misogyny at work and just plain disrespect to you as a person. I'd like more male identified people and others when they see these forms of behavior call that out instead of getting insulted that people are trying to emasculate them or feminize them (treat them like a "woman").

How can someone emasculate or feminize someone by how they refer to them or how someone is touched? I don't believe the way someone refers to you or touches you "feminizes" or "masculinizes" (we only hear about "feminizes") you. Your femininity and masculinity is yours. You own it.

I am a stone butch and my boundaries and sexual preferences have absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." When one particular ex of mine (who isn't on this website or last website) tried to say I wasn't butch when she was mad I told her flat out- I am butch and you can't take that away from me.

There is lots and lots of anti-woman language and attitudes in our culture. Unfortunately it is very evident in butch femme culture as well. Everyone's gender, pronouns and sexuality should be respected, but it is not a horrible thing to be a woman and butch women embrace their masculinity just as male identified butches do.

Yes, and the main reason for my having to apply so much of my spiritual beliefs to butch identity actually stems from this as well as the limitations of the English language. Yikes, and my very broken Italian and spanish does not help either! Two-Spirit, some Pagan ideology as well as Jungian psychology, along with Eastern philosophies seem to give me better balance personally as a butch. I wish I had talent with languages, as I believe this would help.

Nope... no one can take butch identity from anyone or femme identity Just wish we would leave the patriarchal men/male/masculine as supreme behind... sort of like the mix, myself and prefer equity in all things. Just what fits for me.

[redrose]

i like lookin' at butch's boobs and i am very much amazed on the way they hide it, just sayin' ...

[Rockinonahigh]

Weather im called him,hy or she dosent make a bit of diffrents to me,I know who I am and the direction im going.Now at work these last eight months many folks have slowly began to call me Mrs.Mike insted of Mrs.Mary,at first they had no idea what to call me so I just went with the flow cause I figured it would be a bit of a stretch to get the temanology down for so many of them as they are way older and some very confused.Some of my co workers didnt want to cause a rift but I took the same approach and its working out ok even tho i have had a couple who really finaly pushed the wrong button and got burned for it..one got reported the other got told off...not on company propeprty but just the same I made my point.Even tho now and again it gets a bit sticky I just go with the folw somemore.The way I see it is its not giveing in to the establishment,its dealing with life as it comes.My friend,family and he ppl who I feel are important to me know the way to the world I live in and how it really is away from work and are ok with it.The only place I have problems is at the pool hall,thete is a certan section of ppl who will get get my dander up a bit whats said about how I express my gender choices and expression.These I am very carefull about cause they are the one who will, at some point become a bigger problem.