Third or Other Gender Butch

[Words]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread

Words

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.

Dylan

Originally Posted by DapperButch

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

[Apocalipstic]

Great thread Met!

I do find it interesting that these discussions always seem to be Butch-Masculine...of course understanding that you are Butch, so you would see things from that perspective...and not to in any way take away from the things you deal with day to day....

However,

I do wonder if there are any other Femmes who in their heads id as masculine in some ways no matter how we might look on the outside.

There are parts of me that are very masculine (in my head and behavior) and some parts (mostly appearance) that are feminine. I have said before that if I were to transition I would look like Truman Capote, Laugh. Not that I want to transition, but I can't say that it has never crossed my mind.

Is this too much of a derail?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

I have a number of very close femme friends who ID as cis-female, but who consider their gender femme...they consider themselves transgender, and have a helluva time (even in and sometimes mostly in queer space) fighting for their space in the TG world.

I truly believe they have a harder time than butches explaining their gender, because it's always assumed they mean they're trans-sexed as opposed to genderly outside the binary. Most people can't fathom how femme is a gender when you ID as cis-female, and your gender presentation falls in line with stereotypical ideas of femininity (woman), etc. I think femmes are continually left out of this conversation or dismissed, because their gender doesn't necessarily fall in line with limited binary thinking...i.e. femme isn't seen as any type of 'crossing over' or any other limited definition most people use to define 'transgender'. It's commonly (and erroneously) just assumed that 'femme' falls in line with cultural norms of woman/female/femininity, so "what? What's the big deal? There's no struggle...only butches 'struggle'." Which I then think leads back to the idea that in order to 'qualify' as transgender, One has to want 'the opposite'...which then leads back to binary thinking...which then leads back to stereotypes...which then leads back to Butches Want To Be Men Syndrome and Femmes' Invisibility.

I agree it's incredibly frustrating...it's even more ridiculously frustrating when it happens in queer space among people who claim to *know better* than to fall for binary thinking

I think the term transgender was *once* used as a term primarily for trans-sexed individuals, however, I really see a pulling away from this thinking. I mean, in some conversations I see transgender and transsexed used interchangeably, but in real time conversations, I see a big pulling away from this interchangeability. I see a lot of pulling away in some online communities also. Basically, I see the most interchangeability in conversations had among completely clueless straight people or in very basic definitions.

My real time groups of transgendered friends/acquaintances include butches, femmes, folks on hormones who just want to present differently (but who have no intention of changing their sex), third genders, genderfucts, genderqueers, pangender, zies, two-sprits, and everything in between.


Avoiding Work,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Words

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread

Words

I recently went to The Lady Doctor, and on their application, they also had a box for "Trans"

I was both relieved and dismayed at the same time. I was relieved (happy actually) to see the box, however, I was unable to actually mark the box, because trans-people aren't covered by the county insurance I was using to have this particular procedure (which, btw, had nothing to do with any trans-related issues). Hence, had I actually checked the box, I wouldn't have been covered...nor could I GET covered again, because it would have been part of my 'permanent record'.

So, while I'm glad people are actually becoming more aware...trans-folks still have to be incredibly cautious.


Dylan
But that's a whole 'nother conversation.

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks for your post Dylan and for answerng my question in addition to At Lasts!

So yes there are other Femme who ID as GenderQueer or who stuggle with the pervasive thought that only butches and FtM's suffer with gender identity.

Relived,

Jen

PS. That sucks that if you are Trans you can't use county insurance. Impressed that your county has insurance at all, but sad that for politics sake, there had to be a whole group of people left out....As usual.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I recently went to The Lady Doctor, and on their application, they also had a box for "Trans"

I was both relieved and dismayed at the same time. I was relieved (happy actually) to see the box, however, I was unable to actually mark the box, because trans-people aren't covered by the county insurance I was using to have this particular procedure (which, btw, had nothing to do with any trans-related issues). Hence, had I actually checked the box, I wouldn't have been covered...nor could I GET covered again, because it would have been part of my 'permanent record'.

So, while I'm glad people are actually becoming more aware...trans-folks still have to be incredibly cautious.


Dylan
But that's a whole 'nother conversation.

Seems like a trick question to me!

I am glad too, that your county has something to offer TG people, but, ugh... thinking how many TG people could check the trans box not knowing these consequences given how confusing program small print can be!

I know I am always happy to see trans being included for gender on apps, etc., but here we have the ultimate catch-22. Also, I want a box for other!

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Thank you! My eyes, I tell ya. I can see it with my...cough...bifocals, but did not have them on and thought that part was your sig line.

Yeay! Validation.

May start another thread....another day when my brain is working better.

[Jett]

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

[Corkey]

If someone drops being your friend because you speak up about who you are, they weren't your friend to begin with. YOU I will always call friend, and I'd be proud to say I got yer back any day of the week, NO matter how you identify.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I know this is going to sound a bit wierd to others but it's not to me...

I've always said that lots of people out there have more than one gender. I'm one of those. And one of my genders just don't fit in "woman" - it fits in feminine. It's non-female, non-male, but feminine. Sometimes when I get very body disphoric, I have trouble understanding why I don't fit into my own body the way I feel I should.

It used to be horrific at times. Now just slightly off-putting and annoying.

I wouldn't call it a third gender. It's it's own thing and plenty of people feel that way sometimes. Frankly, half the planet has probably felt that wierd seperation of self from body. in a "this isn't quite me" way.

Perhaps it's because of disociating, perhaps it's because of body dysmorphia from eating disorders once out of control. Who knows. Doesn't matter much. I don't hate my body, I actually quite like it - it's just sometimes isn't speaking the same language as me.

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

[Daywalker]

Thanks for the raw n honest post Met.

What you have described is like being caught in a color wheel.

Sometimes folks are trying to turn it to the color they
want for you, and it gets stuck...so you end up having
to push harder to get it to move forward again
until it lands on Your color.


Heh, I think mine got stuck on Psychedelic...and I like it there.


Either way, strength can only be measured from the inside out.
Your inner strength stood the test of your own transformation.


Amen n Pass the Koolaid

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

I second that!

[DapperButch]

[quote=Metropolis;68756]


So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Met:

I'm trying to get one or either of my friends to sart a thread on the other-gendered femme. Both felt so burned on the dist site that they are just not feeling comfortable to do so .... yet! I don't feel very well-read or knowledgeable to start one and I also feel like it just isn't my place to.

Your bring up the fact that other-genderism, plus has been a part of history for eons is so much of what has helped me in learning about gender today. Native North American (as well as South Native American take on gender (especially 2-Spirit) has given me a sort of peaceful sense about gender - even in the midst of so much friction that I think our community has gone through. Even with having a couple of very long-time friends from childhood (yikes, back to the 1950's) and an intergendered cousin (in her 70's, but we have only recently re-connected due to nut-so-way-cucko family issues), the study of gender theory and and application to so much of what I feel about myself and other people remains stiffled sometimes.

As I've said before, I feel fortunate to have gender issues be part of my lifetime. Guess its about un-locking doors. Especially legal protection doors. And just not being stuck in a box that I think a lot of us (butch, femme, TG, everyone have been held back within. As I watch my 2 grand daughters grow-up, I am seeing that they are not stuck in the same box and it makes me very happy! The younger one seems like a budding other-female to me, or maybe another form of evolving gender identities. Mainly, I want her and all kids to not go through what a hell of a lot of people here have. It helps too that she doesn't live in a place as open as I do because maybe things are changing outside of our more urban and open locations!One can only hope!

[AtLast]

[quote=DapperButch;68844]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

Actually, I don't think you should get flack either! Loss of friendship makes me deeply sad because a true friend recognizes when someone is speaking their truth and respects this even if they disagree.

Yes, Dapper, it hurts more when it comes from our own space.. hurts terribly.

Personally, Met, you RAWK! You are willing to take yourself to task with things that are just not easy and be open about it. Looks like good character to me!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't! Oh yes, those winces, etc. And then there are the fence-sitting digs. The problem is that any kind of a fence or blockade to one's gender identity is what is really wrong. And then there is that line drawn in the sand.. and the silence from those that just can't accept that for some of us, none of this is clear-cut and I can't imagine not taking a look at male vs masculine or female vs feminine as well as TG vs 3G, Pan-genderism, etc. and female or male as other or to be determined (theory evolves).. And the core problem remains with the traditional constructs of the binary!! The constructs are the problem, not the terms.

Please just live your life without that damn veneer!

[Jett]

Yeah I think there was a bit of shell shock going around but for the most part it seems it's all good now I think.

I'm pretty occupied today (sick kit kat and a deadline on some works) but I just wanted to get at least make sure I got that in.

BBL
Metropolis

[Greyson]

Met, for a few years now I have been reading many of your posts. I am always drawn in by your words and thoughts.

I too have struggled internally with very similar feelings and thoughts. The struggle really heated up when I made the decision to transition. I do feel more at peace now but I wince each time I correct people to call me "He." It's true, I do prefer He when given the only binary option of he or she. However, I am neither.

For me when I state I am a Transman or a Transmasculine Butch it more clearly says who I believe myself to be. Thanks for keeping this discussion going and doing it with authenticity, patience and vulnerability.