Third or Other Gender Butch

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap...

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.



Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

So much of what you and Dapper are saying rings true for me. identifying as TG, however (as you point out), does not fit as I understand it. Transition is the operative term that just doesn't work for me. But, transcending the binary or even transforming it sure would work! And I do know TG folks that actually feel these to be more representative of who they are.

Hummmmm.... trans has been a term that has caused painful division among butches, I believe. I would really like for us to bring an end to this. I know that before I ever identified as butch or even became actively involved in the B-F community, I did not have the kinds of negative interactions that I have within it. This seems so weird to me and been painful. I honestly have not come to any conclusions about this that really answer my internal questions of why this has been my experience after knowing TG people since I was a kid. Sometimes, I do feel that it is essentially about competition, which I don't like accepting.... at all!

[Jett]

Body... since it's been brought up.

I do have some comfort and discomfort areas relating to mind and body connection (I know people often do but I'm relating this in the context of GQ/TG/3rdG).

I bind, and pack (though the packing varies) to sync body and mind more. I'm pretty small chested so it doesn't take any more than a high impact sports "bra" to almost completely flatten me out.

For me I wouldn't consider any degree of transition, because honestly I have enough genetic male or masculine physical markers to a point where I feel my body naturally reflects my balance in genderqueer-ness in it's already male/female appearance. Even my bone structure (facial etc.) is "heavy" with mixture of male - having large brow ridges, temporal lines, blunt fingers, robust bones etc... and female- curvature at the hips, narrower jaw line etc.... but it's actually a balance that is good with me (I think I would be a real challenge for a forensic anthropologist (gawd forbid). I also have a pretty deep voice on that side of things too and I pass pretty easily if desired.

Something perhaps worth mention. I did gain some weight back in 08' after my mom died and unfortunately it was mostly on my hips and chest... I was amazed how much that changed the appearance of my body, really threw my body away from my minds eye of where I feel ok with it in terms of what I desire to present with how I feel as genderqueer. Fortunately I've lost that weight and am back where I feel more comfortable.

I've definitely had some mirror moments (aside from the weight gain), but I think it's been along the lines of my own baggage, in my own ingrained social teachings of what we're "expected" to look like in a binary world. As I said I seem to physically fall more toward "middle". Vast majority of days though I'm happy with what I see, actually grateful because out of line with the binary or not... my body is fairly in line with my personal internal genderqueer.

Just thoughts for the day...

Metro

[Darth Denkay]

I've been reading this thread from its inception, but as seems to generally be the case, I don't have the time to actually respond much to threads. I have been thinking a good deal though as many of you have shared your thoughts.

Third or Other Gender butch

I haven't ever used either term. I've always used trans butch. For a while now though, it hasn't felt quite right. I've used it to denote that I don't feel like a man or a woman, but instead someone distinct. However, it seems as though that term carries with it some expectation - in this community at least - of feeling 'male'. I don't. I feel masculine, which to me doesn't equate to being either male or a man.

My body is female. I'm reasonably comfortable with it, except that I want at least a major reduction (I'd prefer a complete double mastectomy but don't know if I could get that). I am fairly large chested. I wear frog bras which do a decent job of flattening and tend to wear shirts that don't fit snugly. I tend to pass, at least at first. I think I'm read as male by anyone who looks briefly, and those that look a bit more closely it seems to be a toss-up.

I also pack. It feels right. Flattening my chest and packing allows me to experience much more connection with my body than when I don't.

Now, back to the terms in question. I've been mulling them over quite a lot, and find mixed thoughts regarding them. On the one hand, third or other both indicate that I am neither male or female which trans does not. On the other hand, they still don't allow us to really identify what our gender, at least in general looks like. Other tells us not man or woman, but doesn't give any additional information. It also lumps everyone who doesn't identify as male or female in one group, and the reality is there are probably many gender sub-groups within that population. Similarly, 'third' only means not male or female, although it does imply that there are potentially many gender categories (third, fourth, fifth, and so on).

Reading through this thread, it appears that the butches who have posted could make up a gender category - enough similarities to define us. However, we're still left with no descriptor that gives any additional information about our gender.

I think I'm going to start using 'third gender'. It feels more right than 'trans' and I like it more than 'other'. We're always going to be limited by language in terms of identifying our gender, but third gender at least distinguishes completely from man and woman.

Great thread!

[BullDog]

Wicket, there are some butches who feel their gender is Butch, without other qualifiers or other genders in addition to. Butch is generally understood to be masculine female. So I am wondering why your gender wouldn't just be Butch as a stand alone gender if other terms don't really resonate with you? I am just curious is all.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

I've been reading this thread from its inception, but as seems to generally be the case, I don't have the time to actually respond much to threads. I have been thinking a good deal though as many of you have shared your thoughts.

Third or Other Gender butch

I haven't ever used either term. I've always used trans butch. For a while now though, it hasn't felt quite right. I've used it to denote that I don't feel like a man or a woman, but instead someone distinct. However, it seems as though that term carries with it some expectation - in this community at least - of feeling 'male'. I don't. I feel masculine, which to me doesn't equate to being either male or a man.

My body is female. I'm reasonably comfortable with it, except that I want at least a major reduction (I'd prefer a complete double mastectomy but don't know if I could get that). I am fairly large chested. I wear frog bras which do a decent job of flattening and tend to wear shirts that don't fit snugly. I tend to pass, at least at first. I think I'm read as male by anyone who looks briefly, and those that look a bit more closely it seems to be a toss-up.

I also pack. It feels right. Flattening my chest and packing allows me to experience much more connection with my body than when I don't.

Now, back to the terms in question. I've been mulling them over quite a lot, and find mixed thoughts regarding them. On the one hand, third or other both indicate that I am neither male or female which trans does not. On the other hand, they still don't allow us to really identify what our gender, at least in general looks like. Other tells us not man or woman, but doesn't give any additional information. It also lumps everyone who doesn't identify as male or female in one group, and the reality is there are probably many gender sub-groups within that population. Similarly, 'third' only means not male or female, although it does imply that there are potentially many gender categories (third, fourth, fifth, and so on).

Reading through this thread, it appears that the butches who have posted could make up a gender category - enough similarities to define us. However, we're still left with no descriptor that gives any additional information about our gender.

I think I'm going to start using 'third gender'. It feels more right than 'trans' and I like it more than 'other'. We're always going to be limited by language in terms of identifying our gender, but third gender at least distinguishes completely from man and woman.

Great thread!

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.

You bet!

I have been thinking about the fact that I (and it seems like quite a few others) do take some license when applying different gender theories to myself. I don't really know how this plays out in terms of those who are really experts in the field. There are certainly a whole lot of folks much more well-read, up to date and have a very breadth of knowledge in this area compared to me right here on the site (and the other sites for the B-F community. Some are even majoring in college in Gender Studies, etc. I know that when I am pondering gender identification it really helps me to ask folks I know that have more knowledge and can give me info on the literature.

[nytangel]

Originally Posted by Gryph

I go by two-spirit as a way of denoting my gender. I am the best and worst of both(in our binary world) in one body. Pronouns to me don't matter, I will and do answer to both he and she and not think anything of it, that is part of being two-spirit.

I came to the conclusion years ago that I kind of like this body and I have no need to bind or anything like that. Besides it would be a bit hard, my tits are rather ample, its a family trait. So I dress in male clothes, except for the sports bras that I wear for work and other then winter, I keep my hair fairly short. A quick look and I get tagged as a butch all the time, which is not a big deal for me.

I agree its the best of both worlds. I've had some great conversations w/ friends that have opted to start the surgical process; but that is something that I can not do. How do others feel about the reassignment surgery?

[Darth Denkay]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Wicket, there are some butches who feel their gender is Butch, without other qualifiers or other genders in addition to. Butch is generally understood to be masculine female. So I am wondering why your gender wouldn't just be Butch as a stand alone gender if other terms don't really resonate with you? I am just curious is all.

You're right Bulldog, many folks around here use Butch as their sole gender identifier. The reason I am really exploring other labels is that, in my opinion, butch as a gender is only useful within the butch-femme community. In thinking about being a part of the broader general public, although most folks still won't get it, third gender would be easier to understand. It's less specific, granted. But I think they could wrap their heads around it better. The other reason is that I am hesitant, especially in the general public, to think that adding gender categories is helpful. Seems like a huge to me. We add butch and femme to the gender categories, others who don't feel as though they quite fit into the now four-gender system come up with their own, and we end up with a never-ending list of gender categories. Instead, why not simply present ourselves as not male or female, simply in an attempt to challenge the accepted gender binary. That seems to me a potentially more effective goal.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

You bet!

I have been thinking about the fact that I (and it seems like quite a few others) do take some license when applying different gender theories to myself. I don't really know how this plays out in terms of those who are really experts in the field. There are certainly a whole lot of folks much more well-read, up to date and have a very breadth of knowledge in this area compared to me right here on the site (and the other sites for the B-F community. Some are even majoring in college in Gender Studies, etc. I know that when I am pondering gender identification it really helps me to ask folks I know that have more knowledge and can give me info on the literature.

Ah, so the academics are the experts in gender theory? I'm still in graduate school and have done a large amount of reading and some research around gender theory, especially butch-femme. I don't think that I can completely understand any one person's experience of gender. I can better articulate mine, but no one can box me into a specific gender theory. We are all the experts of our own gendered experience.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

You're right Bulldog, many folks around here use Butch as their sole gender identifier. The reason I am really exploring other labels is that, in my opinion, butch as a gender is only useful within the butch-femme community. In thinking about being a part of the broader general public, although most folks still won't get it, third gender would be easier to understand. It's less specific, granted. But I think they could wrap their heads around it better. The other reason is that I am hesitant, especially in the general public, to think that adding gender categories is helpful. Seems like a huge to me. We add butch and femme to the gender categories, others who don't feel as though they quite fit into the now four-gender system come up with their own, and we end up with a never-ending list of gender categories. Instead, why not simply present ourselves as not male or female, simply in an attempt to challenge the accepted gender binary. That seems to me a potentially more effective goal.

Darth, thank you for your post. I agree with you that the proliferation of gender identities doesn't seem particularly helpful in terms of breaking free of the binary system way of thinking or being particularly accessible to the general public, no matter how meaningful the various gender identities may be on an individual and personal level.

Butch is meaningful to me, but out in the world I am seen as female, woman and lesbian- which is fine by me. I feel as a butch woman I transgress gender and challenge the stereotypes of what woman is and can be. I feel that third gender can also challenge what man and woman can be as well as offer other alternatives to man and woman. I would use man and woman rather than male and female, which to me are biological sex and not gender.

I do feel that the limitations and stereotypes placed upon man and woman is the main problem, more than there not being enough genders. However, I do believe more than two genders exist and should be recognized.

Thanks again Darth.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

[COLOR="Navy"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]

Ah, so the academics are the experts in gender theory? I'm still in graduate school and have done a large amount of reading and some research around gender theory, especially butch-femme. I don't think that I can completely understand any one person's experience of gender. I can better articulate mine, but no one can box me into a specific gender theory. We are all the experts of our own gendered experience.

Only experts in developing the theoretical positions and doing research. I do as you do in drawing from theory and applying what makes sense to me. That is what I mean't by taking license. I have a fundamental understanding of the literature, but, it isn't something that I study deeply as do many TG folks I know. Probably this is due to my not viewung myself as Trans and have no reason to look deeply at reassignment issues. It does help, though, to understand key elements in being able to talk with transitioning friends and offer support.

There is an academic study of gender based on theory and research and is part of curriculums all over the world. Helpful in that there has not been a lot of research done in the past. Even the stats on the numbers of those choosing reassignment are sketchy. It would seem that the development of academic curriculum as well as research studies would help in political areas such as in employment discrimination. And also help with kids and their parents deal with gender identity differences (from the binary) earlier and with some social supports.

I do hear you about our own personal experience of gender. I know that there is quite a mix for me in how I view myself and often, I don't fit into any given box when it come to my own personal gender distinctions.

[Dylan]

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

I did for most of my life Dylan. In my thinking, or maybe the environment I came from to be Butch did imply you were not a "woman" like the others. But, you were not a "man" either.

Then the 80s came along and the gender theory began to bust open the accepted binary. Initially I did not see the big differences between an FTM and a Butch. Now 20 something years later, I have taken in so much new information and changed some of my beliefs.

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?
Dylan

My gender is Femme.

My sex is female.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Greyson

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

I meant to say "So no, I no longer consistently identify solely as Butch."

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

I'd thought about butch as a gender, the thing for me is I don't see how my gender is dependent in any way to my being female bodied and having masculinity.

In other words if I wasn't a "butch" I'd still be genderqueer... if I wasn't masculine I'd still be genderqueer.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I did for most of my life Dylan. In my thinking, or maybe the environment I came from to be Butch did imply you were not a "woman" like the others. But, you were not a "man" either.

Then the 80s came along and the gender theory began to bust open the accepted binary. Initially I did not see the big differences between an FTM and a Butch. Now 20 something years later, I have taken in so much new information and changed some of my beliefs.

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

Like Greyson, I came from the school of thought (and literature), that butch was a gender separate from woman and man. One was neither woman nor man, but just simply butch. The noun. If you said that you were a butch woman, then you were using butch as an adjective and not as a noun (a gender).

When I came to B/F.com (late 1990's), I noticed that the above was not the case. Subsequently, I did not identify as "simply butch" on said site, as I am not a woman.

[DapperButch]

Quoting myself for clarity...

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Like Greyson, I came from the school of thought (and literature), that butch was a gender separate from woman and man. One was neither woman nor man, but just simply butch. The noun. If you said that you were a butch woman, then you were using butch as an adjective and not as a noun (a gender).

When I came to B/F.com (late 1990's), I noticed that the above was not the case. Subsequently, I did not identify as "simply butch" on said site, as I am not a woman.

ETA:Meaning, that the above was not the case, for the some of the members on that site, specifically