Male ID Butch, Femme, FTM, MTF & the Intergendered- Open thread to All Members

[AtLast]

I think that gender identity and theory is an important part of our entire B-F narrative. A subject that we all deal with and attempt to understand more fully, which is the spirit behind this thread. It is pointed to a discussion of the B-F dynamic as it relates one's sense of gender and transitioning variables.

This thread is for anyone, of any identity to post thoughts about any form of transitioning (to male or masculine/ or, to woman or feminine), including intergendered individuals who retain Butch or Femme as an identifier and are faced with gender changing medical procedure decisions.

Gender variations reach many levels and personal interpretations. Feel free to post your interpretations.

[SuperFemme]

what do you mean by *vs.*?

[Corkey]

If it's to be inclusive then the V.S. is an open invitation for conflict. Which I'd rather not be a party to.
My .02

[The_Lady_Snow]

So is it for butches, femmes, femme's who are masculine identified? Who are we against?

Are we talking about gender

The VS makes it feel like one is better than the other I am confused

Help me please understand what the discussion is.

Thanks in advance

[AtLast]

It is exactly our exclusionary stances that keep us from getting at the root of discontent and continue to hurt this entire community.

Gender theory and identification does not belong to one group of people, nor is its importance to social and political institutions the exclusive domain of the B-F community or any single faction, thereof.

Gay men as well as cisgendendered people use the terms butch and femme and have for centuries. So, we can't be adults and have an adult conversation about a very important subject?

I know that some of you are reacting to my starting this thread due to the prior one begun in the Trans Zone. I thought this could happen. I also thought that this thread would invite the site as a whole to discuss and help enlighten the site as a whole. And that is what is important. I just won't take part in exclusionary behavior here or in real time. The subject is too important and is not only for the transgendered. It affects everyone, especially those raising children as queer parents or non-queer people that have a Trans child and need the very organizations we all support in order to help their kids. It is an educational and social issue needing attention, worldwide.

If someone has a personal issue with me, send me a PM, don’t mess with a public forum aimed at serving the entire site. I have faith in this community to be able to have a worthwhile, drama and bias-free conversation here without factions developing. I could be wrong, but, have this kind of respect and admiration for our entire community as intelligent people with much to offer on this subject. Conflict does not have to erupt if we do not allow it and have a genuine sense of community.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So is it for butches, femmes, femme's who are masculine identified? Who are we against?

Are we talking about gender

The VS makes it feel like one is better than the other I am confused

Help me please understand what the discussion is.

Thanks in advance

OK, I see what you mean. I wasn't using v.s. to do that- it came from the prior thread and you are right, it did cause conflict. I thought that by opening up a discussion for everyone, the v.s. would be discussed in a different light. The thread is an off-shoot of the thread:
Male ID butch vs. FTM?? http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...698#post184698 which is in the Trans Zone. I am trying to to get at the whole problem of the VS and exclusion of all identifications being able to discuss this issue as it was posed in that thread.


There can be a wedge about transgendered people retaining butch or femme as part of their identification and I think that is wrong because many people that transition (no matter the degree) have a long personal history as either that goes beyond identifications. I posted about this (so did others) in the other thread, but things went off in other directions, so the whole premise was lost.

The v.s. is the problem, you are right. But v.s. continues (as is demonstrated by the title of the other thread) to be used. Interesting, that it took an open forum, outside of specific Trans or Butch Zones to get some chatter about this.

My point is that we have to get out of our specifc zones in order to get anywhere positive with gender issues.

But, I see now that i should have changed the title from the original question posed. Thanks, Snow! You have now set things in motion to get at the bottom of the whole subject! This very v.s is at the heart of the issue.

I could have made my op more clear as is often the case of ops here (I have had to ask for clarification about other ops, too). For that, I apologize.

We are NOT against anyone, I hope! You might want to take a look at the thread in the Trans Zone.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

It is exactly our exclusionary stances that keep us from getting at the root of discontent and continue to hurt this entire community.

Gender theory and identification does not belong to one group of people, nor is its importance to social and political institutions the exclusive domain of the B-F community or any single faction, thereof.

Gay men as well as cisgendendered people use the terms butch and femme and have for centuries. So, we can't be adults and have an adult conversation about a very important subject?

I know that some of you are reacting to my starting this thread due to the prior one begun in the Trans Zone. I thought this could happen. I also thought that this thread would invite the site as a whole to discuss and help enlighten the site as a whole. And that is what is important. I just won't take part in exclusionary behavior here or in real time. The subject is too important and is not only for the transgendered. It affects everyone, especially those raising children as queer parents or non-queer people that have a Trans child and need the very organizations we all support in order to help their kids. It is an educational and social issue needing attention, worldwide.

If someone has a personal issue with me, send me a PM, don’t mess with a public forum aimed at serving the entire site. I have faith in this community to be able to have a worthwhile, drama and bias-free conversation here without factions developing. I could be wrong, but, have this kind of respect and admiration for our entire community as intelligent people with much to offer on this subject. Conflict does not have to erupt if we do not allow it and have a genuine sense of community.

I guess perspective matters, yes?

I say this with all due respect, but this post comes across as you being very defensive and upset. To the point that you say you've already decided how some of us would react to this thread? Why? Because it is not in the Trans zone?

Atlast, it is NOT an either/or situation nor is it a trans vs. lesbian situation.

Having a trans zone to discuss issues unique to trans members is not exclusionary. It is actually inclusionary. The same way that having the lesbian zone is.

The thing is this: Only a trans person (on a very singular basis) can speak to this community on what being trans means to them. Only a female id'd butch can speak to this community on what being a female id'd butch means to them. And so on, and so on,

Sometimes it is a fabulous thing to go into a thread that is in a zone that doesn't fit your label per se, and READ.

Where we keep running into problems as a community is when people attempt to speak for others, and speculate and pontificate on what it another persons ID means to them. When people attempt to delineate for others HOW they should be trans/butch/femme/<insert id here>.

That is where the breakdown happens.

I cannot come into this thread and speak authentically as anything BUT a Femme. That is who I am and the journey I am on. I can also speak authentically as a significant other of a trans person. What I can not do in good conscience is come into a thread and speak from the viewpoint of something I am not.

Gender theory and identification does not belong to one group of people. It belongs to each and every one of us individually.

So what would you like to discuss in this thread? The differences between all of our id's? The commonalities?

Or do you maybe want to have a discussion on how we can move towards a place of respecting the identities of others without coming from a place of fear?

[SassyLeo]

Maybe it is my lack of brain power after an extremely busy day at work, but I am *still* unclear as to the purpose of this...

Layman's terms, please?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

This thread is for anyone, of any identity to post thoughts about any form of transitioning (to male or masculine/ or, to woman or feminine), including intergendered individuals who retain Butch or Femme as an identifier and are faced with gender changing medical procedure decisions.

Gender variations reach many levels and personal interpretations. Feel free to post your interpretations.

This is the OP, and I too am confused as to the purpose.

Is this a place where anyone can extrapolate on transitioning? Specifically people who are not transitioning?

[Toughy]

I have only read the title. I am tired of titles with so and so vs so and so. It implies conflict. It is not what this site is striving to achieve.

I will now read what has been posted.

[Toughy]

I see other folks have the same feeling.

Frankly AtLast..............I could not even read your posts and responses. My brain started glazing over. And it's not about you personally............it's about the blah blah blah I was reading that made my mind go all fuzzy and irritated.

If you want to talk about the overall aspects of transitioning from a psycho-social perspective then your title gets no where near that.

If you want us to talk about our personal journeys in transitioning to the different periods of our lives, then say so.

If you want to talk about transgressing gender and chromosomal norms, then say so.

Please stop this us and them kind of set-up. You know better.


edited to add: I'm not posting anything in this thread about my personal journey. I suggest we all let this thread die and I do mean die. Perhaps AtLast can start another thread with a different premise than so and so VS so and so.

[AtLast]

I'm fine with letting it die.

What I do find fascinating is that it is fine and dandy for the topic to be discussed in the Trans Zone with the same terms in the title. And to the exclusion of other identities.

I am fine with criticism of not making the op more clear. Anyone that wants to remain on these sites does need to develop a thick skin and leave sensitivity behind. That's OK. I am not fine with double standards and exclusion.

I guess admin/mods can close a thread. Don't have a problem at all if that is what they want to do.

I also feel very misread, but, I'll get over that. The only thing I should have know better about is that these types of discussions are better off-line in organizations that offer support for a multidimentional gender community to feel safe to discuss these kinds of issues together as one. I am so glad that I have this sort of organization available to me in real-time and the people representing all identities around me.

Let it die.... what the hell...

[Toughy]

This discussion CAN happen on-line. The premise however must not be a vs concept. The vs concept sets up confrontation whether it be on-line or off-line.

Perhaps it is your OP that was the last straw concerning the vs concept. If the vs thing stops because of this thread then you did a good thing...........whether or not that was your intention.

[waxnrope]

Toughy, your pm box is full! Lol
We now return to our regularly scheduled program ....

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

what do you mean by *vs.*?

That was my first thought too. Why do we have to have a vs. in there. I think this is part of the problem. There is no vs. here in my mind. If there is a problem with why FTM retain butch as part of their identity then I don't understand that attitude. We are the sum of our histories and where we are right now is an accumulation of sexual, gender and personal history and where we are right now might not be where we are in 2 months or 10 years. THe fact that we id so differenlty and have different journeys is something to be celebrated. I think it is up to us (meaning people here at this site) to remove the vs once and for all.

Melissa

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

This discussion CAN happen on-line. The premise however must not be a vs concept. The vs concept sets up confrontation whether it be on-line or off-line.

Perhaps it is your OP that was the last straw concerning the vs concept. If the vs thing stops because of this thread then you did a good thing...........whether or not that was your intention.

Here is my concern at the moment, Toughy. I agree that my opening post was not well written in terms of what I was trying to get at even though the very same words were used in the other thread (which I thought would be evident- my mistake). Due to how it is being misread, I think the whole premise is lost and will remain stuck in semantics even though I explained what was going on.

I asked that it be closed. If the thread is going to be negative to the site, especially in a subject area that just is a sensitive one, it is better for it to be closed. I am fine with accepting my op was not clear and that the title bothered some folks. But, why did't the very same concept offend people in the other thread from the very start? Doesn't really matter at this point. I don't think what I was trying to get at will be discussed here and maybe someone else can get the discussion going in another manner. It's all good.

You know, there have been many times in threads over the years I have been part of B-F sites that I could not understand. sometimes that has been due to grammar or circular thoughts and also to just not being familiar with jargon or a particular vein of thought. Can be lots of things. I do what Snow did, just say I don't get it and ask for clarification, not get defensive and think that the OP has some ulterior motive (no this is not aimed at you).

This is just goofed-up and why let it go on? My sense is that it just isn't going to benefit the site in any way. Best to have it closed and go on.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

Toughy, your pm box is full! Lol
We now return to our regularly scheduled program ....

right this moment it is not full.............I can't speak to an hour from now..........laughin........

AtLast...........how about you start this convo over in a new thread. I think I know what you want to talk about. I and many other went all twitchy about the vs. Maybe you have prompted us to be aware of the vs and to find ways to be inclusive. Dig my friend. Reframe the question without the othering dynamic in a new thread.

[SuperFemme]

I have faith that we can have an all inclusive discussion on gender.

I don't think you have/had bad intentions Atlast, and I think people were confused. That's ok. Retitle the thread and let's talk about what you want to.

I say this as a girl that is oft misunderstood, and I come from a place of knowing what that feels like.

So, don't go away frustrated, huh? Stick it out and let's discuss.

[Corkey]

I think there is a miscue where someone who is not of a certain ID wants to start a thread about another gender they are not. It is kinda off putting. I would not start a thread about lesbians, and then speak about lesbians as if I know how lesbians feel, think and act. It isn't my place to do so. So with that said if At Last wants to talk about Male ID'd and FTM and TG and Femmes and etc..... then what exactly are we discussing....don't we all discuss gender daily in a plethora of threads already? Confused and not really getting it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

OK, I see what you mean. I wasn't using v.s. to do that- it came from the prior thread and you are right, it did cause conflict. I thought that by opening up a discussion for everyone, the v.s. would be discussed in a different light. The thread is an off-shoot of the thread:
Male ID butch vs. FTM?? http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...698#post184698 which is in the Trans Zone. I am trying to to get at the whole problem of the VS and exclusion of all identifications being able to discuss this issue as it was posed in that thread.


There can be a wedge about transgendered people retaining butch or femme as part of their identification and I think that is wrong because many people that transition (no matter the degree) have a long personal history as either that goes beyond identifications. I posted about this (so did others) in the other thread, but things went off in other directions, so the whole premise was lost.

The v.s. is the problem, you are right. But v.s. continues (as is demonstrated by the title of the other thread) to be used. Interesting, that it took an open forum, outside of specific Trans or Butch Zones to get some chatter about this.

My point is that we have to get out of our specifc zones in order to get anywhere positive with gender issues.

But, I see now that i should have changed the title from the original question posed. Thanks, Snow! You have now set things in motion to get at the bottom of the whole subject! This very v.s is at the heart of the issue.

I could have made my op more clear as is often the case of ops here (I have had to ask for clarification about other ops, too). For that, I apologize.

We are NOT against anyone, I hope! You might want to take a look at the thread in the Trans Zone.

Hi ALH!!

Sorry it took me so long to respond, I have read the other thread in it's entirety, and though the VS thing did make me cringe *I* Snow don't feel like I need to be posting in the Trans Zone, I may want to but feel, that I really can not *get it* since I am not going through those things the thread is about.

I feel I too have gone through a transition I refer to it as an evolution of the femme I am. Though I have not physically altered anything I have tweaked, worked on, and learned through out my years. This has helped me to be the person I am now.

I am a Femme, a Dyke, a Masculine power that is all housed in a body that to you may read woman, girl, feminine. My gender being Femme will throw most OFSB&F's because I do not fit some binary or role that is traditionally B-F. I am gender queer, gender fucked and gender fluid with me refering to my gender As Femme.

I was hoping that perhaps you opening up this thread in a more open zone that this would be a discussion about the more fluid genders who are part of this BF community.

I hope I made sense