Difference between masculine and male identified?

[Darth Denkay]

Here lately in the forums (on two sites) there has been a good bit of focus on female and male identified butches, some of it respectful and some of it not. As I've read through them, I have found myself not exactly sure which "camp" I belong in. As is so common it feels as though it is reducing gender to a binary.

Here's my take on it. I do identify as female in terms of physical sex. I use the terms male and female to specify physical sex (biological) so it goes without saying that I am female. However when it comes to gender, if I'm going to describe what type of butch I am I prefer masculine-identified to male identified. As I write this, it occurs to me that perhaps many (all?) female identified butches do identify as masculine, so maybe this isn't a useful distinction.

If I had to choose one I would go with male-identified, because in my mind that recognizes my masculine identity. I do prefer male pronouns, again because they celebrate me as a masculine individual. Still I don't want to be a man and I don't really identify as male because to me it describes sex.

Thoughts?

[atomiczombie]

I think you should go with what makes you comfortable when it comes to your ID. No one has a right to tell you who you are, that is up to you to decide.

For me, male is a lot more than what's between my legs. It's what's between my ears. I do experience gender as separate from the physical equipment one was born with. In that sense, male to me is a gender. I don't feel like a woman, and never did. I grew up feeling wrong in my body and knew it from a very young age. As a small kid, I knew I belonged with the boys as school, and had nothing (beyond having a vagina) in common with other little girls. When I told my mother that I wanted to be a boy, she told me I was a girl and that was that and I had to accept it. I resigned myself to that and was miserable for many years of my life. Coming out as a butch lesbian in my early 30s was great, but it still didn't quite feel right. I just know inside that I am male. I knew it as a kid, and I have finally come back to that truth now. That is my story. For me, there is definitely a big difference between being a woman-identified butch and a transguy. My lesson learned in my personal journey is to be true to myself and be aware that I am on a journey of self-discovery. I hope this helps a little.

[Toughy]

I am a walking butch poster.........

I am a woman, a female and masculine........

however I am not masculine id'd or male id'd

I am a butch woman.....2 genders occupying the same space.........

to be honest though...........I do have a male id'd part.....it would the the powered-up leather Top/Dom part..........I'm Syr in that head space.....I don't live in that space though.....I play in it when the mood strikes me........

[Andrew, Jr.]

I live as a man. I try my best to pass. I have had the surgeries, but am not on hormones. I am never going to be allowed to have t. That is what cards I was dealt - all from a childhood head injury.

[Blaze]

Very difficult question for me. 99.9% of the time I am called Sir, Mister, Him. It's not that I try to look male ID'ed. It's just a given. I have been asked many times from others; at what stage am I in my Trans-gendered transformation. My answer is I am at no stage. When I was 16 I had intestine cancer, to which I had to take Chemo as well as steroids. Thus, I could grow side burns as well as a decent beard if I chose to. But I prefer to shave daily sometime twice a day, is it a blessing? Not really, I hate the
5 O'clock shadow that follows. I do feel comfortable with myself, yet sometimes when I look in the mirror, I am down fonded at what I see. I feel very masculine and yet my breast depress me. I don't want to do any changes to my body, I guess because my mind is strong enough to recognize that I am alright with myself. And that I am a woman, and can be butch at the same time.
Thank's for sharing this post!

[Andrew, Jr.]

Blaze, We are like the exact opposite. One who wants and one who wants not. Like driving a car. One wants an SUV and one who wants BMW sedan. Just the cards we were given in life.

Andrew

[Jett]

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

[MainelyButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

Very well said....sometimes this is EXACTLY how I feel!!! I am the sum of both, a female presenting as masculine...BUTCH.

[Darth Denkay]

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

To answer your question, yes. What to do about it to change others minds, shrugs, maybe we can't. Maybe we just have to live as we are, and not worry how others perceive us. It really doesn't matter at the end of the day, I still look in the mirror and see me, in all my glory.

[Darth Denkay]

You're right Corkey. It doesn't bother me in the sense that it makes me question myself - I know who I am - not male or female identified - but I just find it frustrating to once again facing an implied binary where I don't fit in one of the boxes. In so many ways around here we are careful not to construct binaries that it just surprises me, that's all.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

You're right Corkey. It doesn't bother me in the sense that it makes me question myself - I know who I am - not male or female identified - but I just find it frustrating to once again facing an implied binary where I don't fit in one of the boxes. In so many ways around here we are careful not to construct binaries that it just surprises me, that's all.

I agree with you my friend, so many times I said the same thing, but unless I put it in my profile, folks assumed a whole lot. I'm not particularly happy about having to choose, I'm Human and that should be enough, thing is it isn't. Don't know why and frankly I am tired of fighting about how I express my gender, is it really worth it in the end? For me no it isn't. I'm Me take it or leave it.

[Jett]

Kind of like having to choose from the two boxes all over again, when neither quite fit eh?

Go figure...

Peace,
Metro

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Yes, it seems at times that the binary is still the standard, the standard to live and measure our identity. For many years I never thought I was "gender queer." I was a butch. No one ever asked me if I were male or female identified. It felt as though many believed that to be butch was by default a immitation of male. I reject all of this.

Through my own inquiry, thinking and living in my skin, I now know that masculinity is not restricted to cisgendered men or other masculine entities.

I think gender can be primarily a construct. However, I did not realize for most of my life, that I could construct and define my own gender. I identify as a Transmasculine Butch because for me, I cannot label myself a mistake. I am evolving. I was born into a female body because it is a foundational part of who I am. I also choose to move further into a more masculine presentation via surgery and taking T.

I am not content that in the realm of legal recognition I have only two options, male or female. I have the history, hormones, thoughts, experiences of both. Which in my mind makes me "other."

[Heart]

What is it that says that a woman/female can't be masculine? Is it the same thing that says feminine can't be genderqueer?

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Heart

What is it that says that a woman/female can't be masculine? Is it the same thing that says feminine can't be genderqueer?

I think that uninformed thinking says a woman/female cannot be masculine. I don't believe this myself. I don't think genderqueer restricts feminine but honestly, I have not given that particular notion much thought. I am sure I will think about it now.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

Yes, I do believe that there is an expectation that butches be female-identified or male identified.

Personally, I am not a "female identifed butch" OR a "male identified butch". Subsequently, I identify as a TG Butch. I also do not regard myself as a woman, nor do I see myself as a man. (However, I do regard my sex as female, as that is what I am biologically).

Except for a recent thread on the "dash site" (I love that saying by the way...don't know who came up with it) where the request was made for only female-id'ed butches to post, I have never felt like I didn't have a "place" or didn't fit.

It was the first time that I ever considered or was concerned that butch threads would start to get divided into male id'ed and female id'ed threads. It concerned me for the community (more division) and then I also thought....hey, where the hell will I post? lol

[Darth Denkay]

Heart,

I very much agree with what Greyson says - masculinity isn't owned by males or male-identified, and folks can be masculine and female identified. Female masculinity is a wonderfully fabulous thing. If I am using female as a sex marker and not a gender marker, then I am a masculine female in all its glory. That being said, I know that many of my butch sisters have a strong affinity for masculinity, and it is theirs as much as anyone else's.

To go even further, I think even feminine folks can incorporate masculinity into their lives as well. Masculinity is free for all!

[Bootboi]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

Right on Metro!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

My butch identity lies within the realm of being a woman. One that is lesbian, masculine and feminine and whose gender stems from masculine energies projected (and formed) from the female (animus). This is how it has always been for me even when I did not identify as butch (or even knew of the term). Consequently, female-identified butch does provide me with an identification that allows for this fluidity. I can't provide an answer for how it applies to others only for myself.

I have never felt that masculine falls exclusively in the domain of men. Nor that femininity falls exclusively in the domain of women. And I feel that the limits of western culture (and language) is what keeps us stuck in the binary. Other cultures (including Native American), do not have this dilemma as they have several terms and descriptors of gender. However, gender theory gives us an opportunity to break through this isolation. For a long time, I could only make sense out of my own gender fluidity and integration through Jungian theory.

I gues, I am what I am, too!