The Re-Definition of the Modern Butch

[Jett]

Not by me, and not a re-definition but a clarification of definition by all of us... and not to narrow but to open and expand it, or better said, to open peoples minds to how extremely diverse and expansive butch already is... right now, right here... as we sit here and ponder our own little place in it.

No offense... but we all could learn a thing or two, I always could.

Specifically I wish we'd take a look at the rigidity of myths and stereotypes about us as butches, break the bullshit mis-information and put a kink in the chain of othering and exclusion. If we could open up to the diverse vibrant array of what butch is instead of this black & white thinking we might cut short some of the links of division between us (all of us) I've seen forged of late.

I'm talking internal stuff that happens in our B-F forums, knocks and mis-information about butches by butches (and femmes equally) perpetuated either in jest, by mistake or even deliberately.

One example I find especially damaging, the negative slurring of queer terms as if there's some great wide chasm between "them" and "us". Lesbian especially... how "lesbians this or that us"... "lesbian type sex"... hello, there's shit loads of packin'/strappin butch lesbians. Or even the dreaded genderless andro bullshit, there's butch androgynes (and chock full of dually gender goodness I might add). And bi's, there's (gasp) bisexual butches? Yes of course. Feminists, feminist butches yes and male id feminists to boot. Trans, some trans are not only transguys but ID as deeply as butches... etc. etc. * (asterisks indicate side notes to a statement found bottom of page)

So when you talk to your hot date (butch or femme) about "the lesbians" they may just be thinking "idiot" and wishing for the check... or how you'll never understand women/males to your buddy, they may ID as butch woman/male... and about the "andros" of which I happen to consider myself an androgyne- female born masculine butch prettyboy**, well obviously you may be talking to one... etc. you get the picture etc.. So online posting in any butch femme setting I guarantee the "they" are all reading you very intently.

Knowing that and still trash talking lesbian/trans/andro/bi/women/male/dyke/etc.etc. as if "they" aren't an integral piece of B-F "us" or less than is divisive, a way creating hierarchys, othering, excluding not to mention just ugly.

Then there's the less damaging but equally stupid stuff like: butches don't have deep emotions/butches are always tops/butches need ego stroking/butches can't cook/all butches have negative body images/female ID butches never struggle with body image-top surgery/butches are damaged or have been abused if they don't want penetration/butches don't date other butches/butches have no manners... on and on.

If you could re-educate some about butches or educate some future B-F'ers what would you tell them?

How have these or other myths or stereotypes of what butch is or isn't negatively affected you?

Those are just a couple questions to maybe kick start focused thought, feel free to reiterate, expand or talk about similar issues or what ever. I know I'll probably chime back in with more.

This thread is for/about all ID butches, but one thing that I don't want is it to turn into is a blatant pissing contest between ID's. Hard convos are good, but personal agendas and vendettas are obvious and aren't cool. And directly in the spirit of the thread, the words "I" "some" "many" etc. are recommended rather than lumping "all" of us into your nutshell. Obviously nobody's perfect so peeps will not be de-pants for oversights in this.

Thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to post.
Metro
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*food for thought, femmes can and do often relate to all these ID's and terms.

**as in masculine female who looks like a male who looks like a female... prettyboy, a queer term not literally thinking I'm "pretty" (all I need is for that shit to start lol)

[atomiczombie]

I am no longer strictly identifying as a butch, though I used to. I am a masculine person born in a female body and raised and socialized as a female. I guess that puts me near the butch ball park. But I now ID as trans, so I don't generally post in and make pronouncements in butch threads. That said, I like what you are saying here Met, and I have a few things to speak to this topic.

One of my best friends ever is a gender-queer identified butch. He prefers the male pronoun, but isn't bothered by being called she. He embraces both sides of himself. He is not stone in bed. He loves to cook and is very domestic. He is a big snuggle bunny who loves to hug and isn't afraid to tell his buddies that he loves them. He is also sexually oriented towards other butches and FTMs. He has dated femmes and appreciates them, but butches and FTMs really do it for him.

He is someone I really respect and love. He isn't the stereotypical butch, but he is butch none-the-less. He is butch because he is masculine in a female package. He is butch because he has the heart of a butch. He is butch because he says he is.

His being into other butches and FTMs does not make him less of a butch. His being a soft-hearted snuggle-bunny does not make him less of a butch. His not being stone in the bedroom does not make him less of a butch. His being domestic and loving to cook does not make him less of a butch. He makes no apologies for who he is. He respects himself and won't let anyone tell him who he is or how he should be. He is as butch as anyone else, and I love and respect him with all my heart.

I think no one has the right to define some else's ID. No one has the right to tell someone how they should be to conform to a standard of how they think that ID should be. Everyone has the right to self-definition. No one should live in a confining, cookie-cutter definition of what butch, femme, trans, andro, etc., should be.

That's my view.

[Dragonfly]

I have been very thoughtful these days on this area of definitions, or explanations of gender ID's... as well as sexual orientation ID's being unrelated to any of said gender ID's. I fondly remember the day my eyes opened and I realized what the word Butch had always been used FOR ME a certain WRONG way by a certain type of people. Being Labeled Butch by someone outside yourself, as a youngster in school, and those outsiders being other youths in a hetero culture with hetero ID's.... labeled Butch by them for the way I dressed and acted... well they screwed my head all up even if I say I agree and I am Butch after all.

The group I associated with were 95% boys in school and the things I enjoyed were not commonly chosen by the girls and rarely seen co ed other than myself (being born female and all). I was not always treated like the girls were but still occasionally objectified and dominated socially as inferior... tho accepted and first pick for the "team" to play whatever sport we were playing at recess.

I JUST accepted I am Butch cause thats what they called me. I accepted that was WHAT "BUTCH" defined, or meant. Butch dressed.

I dont like dresses and I dont always like being a "girl" when being one limited me to only be allowed to or excluded from things as gender roles defined us all in our childhood...

I was freshly in my 30's before I even questioned this Label. ( I say label because I did not choose this description but was given it) I was "that butch looking chick" that dressed in "guys clothes" and in high school I was pretty much the only "dyke" they labeled... tho I was "bi"- as in who I dated while I was discovering myself.

Whoever asks me now how I ID I tend to ask them "what do you think?" after I tell them my life story, chocked full of TMI about my sexuality and preferences in the bedroom as well as my inner connection to each of the multiple gender varieties I resemble in one way or another. It spins their heads trying to categorize me and I end up with an "Andro?" response more often than any. And yes that was Daddy Rhon himself's take on me back when helping me rethink that one through, you know the "am I butch or femme after all" exploring some of us did. If it is so hard to say butch is this but not that... how else can we ID but to just GO WITH what deep down you personally feel is the real You to ID yourself.

Without sites like this one how would I even have begun that journey I am halfway through... I just realize how far I've came in my ways of understanding and defining the diff ID's and I am a little embarrassed at how uneducated I was when I began. Thankfully I am still aware I got a long road still left to journey and am thankful to have peeps like you all to patiently walk through it with me and not lose any respect for me being who I am.

[Jett]

Thanks Atomic and Mel

I'm reminded of an important point about the our labels.

While we label ourselves, others, and catagorize people by their labels... we seem to forget that it's all so very relative to the individual, location, culture etc. as to what that label or term means. Perhaps this is part of where we get tripped up in publically applying our definitions to others labels.

I don't think that's possible to do that with any accuracy, not without having anothers definition of what they mean by "X" explained to us. Yet we do it over and over again. It creates the illusion of universal experience of the label/identity which obviously isn't possible.

This I think speaks to the true diversity of butches and to the similarities we sometimes over look simply due to different interpretations of the labels.

ETA: This isn't perfectly on topic no but I think if we realized we don't necessarily know what A, B or C means to someone we'd start listening to them more than we talk about them.

[Jett]

did I mention the hair thing?

I did not, it's a major annoyance of the butch "myths" for me because I found I do like to alternately grow out my locks to a shaggy mess now and again.

See... now I feel like I have to add that "not long though" statement due to the ingrained stereotype. I know better but admittedly still have those inner cringes on some issues... the twinge of "I need to qualify that statement"... yuck.

Its those irritating inner cringes and examination of them that partially inspired this thread. They don't stop me from proudly being who ever the hell I wanna be but they do make me go "hey, why'd I flinch there?".

[Galahad]

I wake up from dreams in which what I was doing, wearing, acting was somehow not butch enough. My dream self usually has the good sense to remember that who I am and how I feel about myself is all that counts, not some ones imaginary ideal of butch. How do you draw butch? It’s not the trappings, it’s the heart. I’m still working on this idea. Drawing the inner butch.

What I understand you asking about first of all. The separation and judgment of different ids. I don’t have a sense of them against us. I’ve tried out at times in my life different ids in the effort to find or understand myself. It may have given me more of the feeling of being part of the whole. No matter how different I am from others, I feel closely related in some way. Like having family members who have bad days, or who just don’t like me at all, we are all just humans trying to make sense of life and live it fully.

[Dragonfly]

I woke up still thinking of this thread and wanted to add a femme stereotyped viewpoint here. I have never felt like I fit in as "one of the girls". Nails and hair and girl talk are very cute to be included on.... but I dont enjoy it like they do. I am perving and admiring them ... and that is an invasion of some sorts. PJ parties and pillow fights dont include the boy who likes you...

And it is the same deal for me out with the butch stereotypes. I am into cars and camping and things stereotyped butch .... but when I am sitting there "with the guy talk" I am still a freaking perv!!! They dont swap the same conversations with the femmes around you know.... unless someone wants slapped for being too crude.... All Stereotypes I know BUT....

These stereotyped activities that associate with bonding and hanging out are similar to how the hetero couples do dinner parties... men with cigars and politics drinking scotch in the den... and the women with the cupcakes and gossip in the kitchen. Where the heck do I belong? I never really did so... apply this to the butch femme dynamic that is STEREOTYPED and well you see my old confusion right?

I know femmes rock the power tools, smoke cigars and talk politics. I know butches who hug and support and bake cupcakes. I know PEOPLE who are a variety of mixes of social activities and that none are GENDERED in our world...

I am just somewhere between here and there of figuring out ME and why I feel I found "home" amidst specifically a Butch/Femme associated community. Its about More than the confusion that led me to find y'all when I met the butch woman I fell in love with....( I thought butch dont go with butch then and was out of sorts with it but felt how I felt for her so I went searching and found community...) It's about even More then the Label given to me... More than the butch or femme dynamic itself because I feel a lil kindred to the gay boy as well as to the FTM's and MTF's. Every person representing their own unique gender and orientation combinations is CONFIRMING to me that I am ok to be me and theres not a dang thing wrong with any of us. Yes I am still a baby taking baby steps.... but who better than to take them with huh?

[T4Texas]

In my profile, I describe myself as an old school butch with updated ideas. I came out in the mid 70s, a different time and place compared to now. In those days you were either butch, femme or bi. There weren't a lot of ID's swirling around for you to pick from. Gender change was just beginning in some parts of the world and the gay community as a whole was struggling to find its collective identity. I came out as a butch. For me it was a no brainer as it was my personality and I knew without a doubt it was who I was. I have never regretted the decision and always from the beginning embraced my butch identity, never hiding it or making apologies for it. I am outwardly proud of it and felt comfortable in my skin from the beginning. I know I am one of the fortunate ones. I have seen over the years so many people struggle to find their identity no matter if they came out at 17 like me or at 40. The plethora of choices we have now, I feel, makes that struggle harder for some as everyone searches for that place to fit in. I feel a great deal of pain especially for the younger people who sometimes seem caught up in the label frenzy and make decisions about their lives not knowing what the impact of those decisions might be some years down the road. Sure, its their lives to live and its not for me to say or judge at all. But sometimes I can see the pain they are going to face and already face. You can see it in what they say or write at times. I want so much at times to suggest to them "think about all sides of it first", but I can't because it's their right of passage and they must navigate it on their own.
I have changed myself over the years by being more patient, more considerate of my partners, taking responsibility for everything I say and do, and willing to have an open mind on anything. I always tell people that no subject is taboo with me and I do mean that. My own sexuality has evolved a great deal since I came out as far as interests go. Being butch has been a mainstay of life for me. It gave me self confidence, independence and a sense of self worth that I feel nothing else could have. I feel the modern butch is still going to want to acquire all those characteristics and do their best to be a good person, the only difference now being that there are many different types of butches out there and also they face choices I never had to face. I will confess, there was a time when I would look at someone who ID'd as butch but wore makeup and would shake my head and say to myself that person is not butch. It was old school thinking yes and the person I have become realizes now that being butch is a thing within you that you can't cover up or change about yourself so the outward appearances do not matter, aside from the fact that you have no place judging other peoples choices or how they choose to represent those choices. I agree with Met that there are a lot of stereotypes and misinformation out there about butches and those things should be corrected when we can. I particularly get frustrated at articles stating that the butch/femme lifestyle is outdated and going the way of the wind. For me, butch is a state of being and that fact will not ever change no matter how much our world and community do. I can only hope there are others who feel the same.

[Jett]

T4 I agree and feel the same that butch isn't going anywhere, and I don't believe it's changing all that much either but hopefully some of the things we criticize about each other and hold over each others heads at times will.

And just to be clear, again, this thread isn't about changing what butch is, or saying that a stereotypical type of butch is incorrect... I've identified as butch for longer than some peeps on this forum have been alive and to be honest here one could say I'm fairly stereotypical butch and so is my relationship... I'm also very not stereotypical in many ways... and nothings wrong with either of those things and that's kind of the point.

It's about not perpetuating those myths/stereotypes to point of smothering individuality or and discouraging peeps from doing or being every single damn thing they want in this life without worrying about being thought of as less butch.

I just get tired of seeing people trying to pull other peeps butch cards based on ID differences, gender variances or who they date etc. etc. etc.

That's all I've got

Metropolis

[Dragonfly]

A big THANKS To everyone posting here. Especially hearing it from the mentoring generations who evolved and opened their views to be more accepting of each other's ID's. It really helps to know there are supportive people for those confused by "card pullers" when new terms are included and added all the time. Navigating through my own is hard enough and understanding others is easier without the "card pullers" adding to it. Hearing from those of us who admit to having to rethink our own views will hopefully create more PATIENCE with the "card pullers" and we will love them too until they get on board...

[Dragonfly]

To Met @ the hair thing: Umm both of the husbands I had wore their hair long. Just sayin... perspectives of gender traits are not universally the same. I really feel you on that one. Long hair is not = to feminine.

[Jett]

Right Amelia thanks. Yeah I would have no qualms about growing my hair longer, and actually I'm in the process of growing it to where I like it (3-4 inches but above the shoulder) though it's still short short short right now.

Thanks again and have a great day.

Metro

[Bob]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

did I mention the hair thing?
I did not, it's a major annoyance of the butch "myths" for me because I found I do like to alternately grow out my locks to a shaggy mess now and again.

Ditto. It's this sort of thing (which also applies to femme appearance) that sometimes makes me think that for many people, the whole butch/femme thing is just a matter of physical preferences. Butches have not only short hair, but really short hair. They don't wear makeup, heels, feminine clothes. Really? I'd say that if 'butch' is truly an essential part of one's very being, than hair, clothes, and etc. are irrelevant to the core. The fact that so much emphasis is placed on presentation (again, also for femmes) makes it seem more like a fetish than an attraction to an actual live complex human being.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by T4Texas

Being butch has been a mainstay of life for me. It gave me self confidence, independence and a sense of self worth that I feel nothing else could have.

This resonated with me powerfully. Embracing my butch identity made me sane. It allowed me to hold my head up high. To become the woman that my wife describes as a 'force of nature' (which is, in my strange mind, one of the highest compliments that can be paid to any human being). What's more, it helped me embrace and become proud of two other core components of my identity *not* related to my orientation--being a black woman and being a geek.

Although it's not commonly acknowledged, there is a standard of beauty in Western society that no black woman can meet. That standard of beauty that every girl who has ever seen Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty (or any other Disney movie for that matter) or played with a Barbie doll knows all to well. Her skin is pale, her hair is blonde or, if brunette, long and flowing. Her eyes are blue and her lips are thin. No black woman can approximate this standard. Being butch gave me a *different* standard of beauty, one that need not hinge upon the aforementioned characteristics and so, in embracing my butchness, I too could feel attractive/handsome/beautiful/sexy/desirable. Being butch allowed me to embrace perhaps the most obvious distinction of my personality--my geekiness--for I am, always have been and will always be a geek. (I just hung up a poster showing the entire electromagnetic frequency spectrum in my home office) Being a butch gave me a context for that to be okay.

Perhaps something else could have done that for me, but I cannot for the life of me imagine what that would have been or would look like. It is why I treasure my butch identity and love my butch brothers and sisters.

If any of you reading this are older butches (e.g. came out in the 60's and 70's) thank you. I owe you a debt of gratitude I will never live long enough to repay because you blazed a trail that I found in my twenties and followed into a life of happiness, peace and self-acceptance I could never have imagined in my teens. Twenty years after I came out, I am not just the woman I imagined I could be--because I could not have imagined that I would be this woman, my vision was not that expansive.

Cheers
Aj

[T D]

I've been some form of lesbian, gay, butch, trans, anything but heterosexual, my entire life. I formally came out at the age of 19 in 1971. At that time, as T4Texas pointed out, there weren't a lot of choices when it came to IDing. In around 1973 I can remember one of my butch friends saying to me "what are you anyway?" meaning what was my ID. I told her that I'm whatever I want to be, which was completely unheard of and unacceptable at that time. Well as we all know a LOT has occured over the past 4 decades, but one thing I can tell you for sure is that Butch and Femme were IDs then and they're still IDs today. They will always be IDs.

In my world butch is internal, but can and does manifest in external ways as well. There is NO set way to be butch. Some butches cook and are quite domestic, others aren't. Some like mechanical stuff, others don't. Some have long hair, others don't. The differences are endless, and quite frankly mean little to nothing. It's certainly not about how one appears to the external world. Butch is about who you are INSIDE. How you feel about yourself, who you are to yourself.

I have always believed that people are who they believe they are. It's very simple. If you believe you're something, or perhaps not something, then that is your truth, your reality, your place in the world. NO one, and I mean absolutely NO one, has the right, obligation, responsibility, or place telling anyone else otherwise. And it is my belief that those who do are only projecting their own views of life (perhaps their own life) onto others. In order to know who people are we need to listen to them. I think listening is becoming a lost ability.

I've found the growing chasm between and describing IDs very disturbing of late. It's almost like people want to be "right", when there is NO "right". We are who we are, period. There will never be a "right", only an enormously diverse, and growing, variety of descriptions for the same (or nearly same) things........ over and over and over.

Just my 2 cents worth at the moment.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by T4Texas

....*snipped*.....

I particularly get frustrated at articles stating that the butch/femme lifestyle is outdated and going the way of the wind. For me, butch is a state of being and that fact will not ever change no matter how much our world and community do. I can only hope there are others who feel the same.

I want to touch on this a bit more deeply.

Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining.

The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to.

I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. *insert sarcastic look*).

Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive.

I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy.

*actually a lot more fun in real life*
Metro

[BullDog]

Great thread Metro, I hope to contribute more later. Just wanted to say your latest post hits home for me. I find myself less and less relating to online butch femme circles. However, I don't have that same problem with real time friends and local social gatherings of bf peeps. The two worlds are quite different.

[AtLast]

Going to come in everyday to read posts. I feel this thread can be of great value and not age specific at all. For me, there have been so many varied mixes of butch within. A multi-dimensional core of sorts that goes far beyond so much of traditional definitions of butch and for me, female masculinity.

Sometimes, I am deeply frustrated with what I too, see as limiting, narrow and constraining with butch identity. I have met (or am friends with) several butches (ranging from female-identified through TG and IG, Trans-masuline and those that left butch and our dynamic behind as FtM's) that just can't remain on B-F sites for the reasons Metro brings up. Yet, I cannot stay away even when I also feel limitations and constraints. Odd, actually, as personally, I am pretty much just a butch. Ah, so what does that really mean?

Anyway, I want to simply read what others think and feel for now in the thread.

[Kobi]

Our community has taken the marketing of "be all you can be" to heart. We have done a terrific job of exploring and expanding the definitions of the variability of our collective identities and the neverending labels to describe them.

What we may be lagging in is our acceptance of the differences and respect for each individuals uniqueness.

I agree with TD, you are who you believe yourself to be and listening is truly a lost art.

[Jaques]

There are those who will be rigid in how they id and what they see as "the butch" but I feel that whether butch, femme, straight, bi, andro, sky blue pink with a yellow border, people change and change again, thats the way of everything, so what a person may feel he/she is today, down the line they move into some other way of being/thinking - thats how we, as human beings evolve............