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Old 11-22-2009, 06:09 PM   #21
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Sexism isnt a matter of someone's personal preference. It is an ingrained thought process and way of being that has to be actively worked on to overcome.

Is the video sexist? Yes.

Do I think Morningstar is a bad person? Nope. Quite the contrary, I think she is quite lovely.

Do we ALL need to think about how watching a random woman's torso wiggle reinforces the "it puts the lotion on it's skin" type of thinking? Yes.

When women's bodies are objectified as a disconnected body v. person dichotomy, it affects ALL of us. The disconnected body mindset helps contribute to sexual abuse, rape, assault, and sexual compromise.

It is simply NOT ok chalk humor that is based on sexism up to "just a joke", especially not on this site where women, queers, and genderfluid folks need to feel some semblance of respect.

I will be addressing this issue in another thread and the TOS.

Until then, (T-u-f-f-y), please understand that moderating people will not force an evolution in thinking. We have to find ways as a community to uplift one another without making it personal, ways to illustrate the damage that sexism causes to us, and ways to educate instead of separate. This CAN and WILL be done.

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Old 11-22-2009, 06:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by blush View Post
I agree. This is, at best, tiresome. It's insulting to butches because it assumes that they are that shallow and mindless. It's REAAALLY insulting to femmes for reasons apretty has already covered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau View Post
Morningstar,
There is no reason to be sorry. no matter what a person posts, or says , or does someone will find it insulting, annoying, politically incorrect, or some other something. that is life in the cosmos. And sometimes u just have to do three things:

1. say wtf
2. not be afraid to laugh at yourself
3. Look at it and say in the greater scheme of things does it really matter.

and sometimes u just have to put on your teflon suit and stand proud.
Morningstar..allow me to say that if by laughing at the website you posted I am now considered an insensitive, sexist, umannerly, stupid dick head.....so be it.....I am sure it will not be the last time....and frankly i dont give a

love ya morningstar and keep on postin funny stuff

Dean


There may not be reasons to be "sorry" wtfuckever that means, but there are reasons to step back and consider what Medusa said,

D O S O M E T H I N K I N G around objectification and sexism

I mean, come on. What are we, a bunch of stupid dick head frat boys? I like to think being butch means I am a more highly evolved creature than one that listens to the head-with-no-brain in his pants.

As the step parent to a teenage girl, I consider it my duty to protect her from sexist and objectifying (placing request for garbage can emoticon).

I get what you're saying, Dean, about not taking ourselves too seriously, but there are certain VALUES we should strive to uphold.
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Last edited by Mister Bent; 11-22-2009 at 06:29 PM. Reason: a
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau View Post
The truth is................. this thread is in the section called:
FUN FLUFF LIGHT...........................

and since we have been given a wonderful selection of smilies I will merely say:



it time to stop

and how long before PETA Butches or Femmes or Trans complain about the deadhorse smiley? dont you get it....no matter what anyone says someone wont like it! Its called having a little tolerance, and if you expect tolerance its a good idea to give it!
With all due respect, Dean, cruelty should never be tolerated. It should especially not ever be tolerated in the form of sexism and misogyny, especially not within the context of a queer website created by female bodied people. The link Morningstar posted is a subtle expression of violence toward women, which is what makes it unacceptable.

I know that Morningstar is a kind person who would not intentionally promote cruelty or perpetuate this type of damaging, sexist imagery. The problem with what she posted, is that women worldwide are still dehumanized and their bodies treated as objects every single day. Our only value, in many places, is measured as a sexual commodity. The type of image that Morningstar linked to, perpetuates this cycle and has no place in an equitable space that values women.

When we look at a picture that truncates a woman's head from her torso, she becomes nothing more than an object existing to facilitate the sexual pleasure of the dominant culture. She is, in essence a disposable collection of body parts. We don't even think about her parts as belonging to a real, whole, human being.

It's easy to giggle at silly shit in a superficial way without ever taking a minute to read a little deeper into its meaning. It's easy, but it doesn't change the very grim reality that so many women face every day, nor does it eradicate the deeply entrenched sexism and misogyny we've all been raised with.

Just take a minute to really think about what you're putting out there and who it might hurt. It will ultimately make all the difference in the world.

Respectfully,

QoQ

Last edited by QueenofQueens; 11-22-2009 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by QueenofQueens View Post
With all due respect, Dean, cruelty should never be tolerated. It should especially not ever be tolerated in the form of sexism and misogyny, especially not within the context of a queer website created by female bodied people. The link Morningstar posted is a subtle expression of violence toward women, which is what makes it unacceptable.

I know that Morningstar is a kind person who would not intentionally promote cruelty or perpetuate this type of damaging, sexist imagery. The problem with what she posted, is that women worldwide are still dehumanized and their bodies treated as objects every single day. Our only value, in many places, is measured only as a sexual object. The type of image that Morningstar linked to perpetuates this cycle and has no place in an equitable space that values women.

When we look at a picture that truncates a woman's head from her torso, she becomes nothing more than an object existing to facilitate the sexual pleasure of the dominant culture. She is, in essence disposable. We don't even think about her parts as belonging to a real, whole, human being when we see it, because it's all we see.

It's easy to giggle at silly shit in a superficial way without ever taking a minute to read a little deeper into its meaning. It's easy, but it doesn't change the very grim reality that so many women face every day, nor does it eradicate the deeply entrenched sexism and misogyny we've all been raised with.

Just take a minute to really think about what you're putting out there and who it might hurt. It will ultimately make all the difference in the world.

Respectfully,

QoQ
Now this is the way to explain it. Thank you for your subtle and kind words.
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau View Post
The truth is................. this thread is in the section called:
FUN FLUFF LIGHT...........................

and since we have been given a wonderful selection of smilies I will merely say:



it time to stop

and how long before PETA Butches or Femmes or Trans complain about the deadhorse smiley? dont you get it....no matter what anyone says someone wont like it! Its called having a little tolerance, and if you expect tolerance its a good idea to give it!
I think we've all tolerated enough of these kinds of threads and this kind of response. If we are going to move past the drooling butch stereotype, then we have to quit "tolerating" this type of humor.

IMO, this is flagrantly offensive. I have no beef with Morning, I don't know her. I do think this is a poor choice.
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:27 PM   #26
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I truly appreciate all the reps I'm getting. Instead of repping me........why not post what you said to me in this thread.

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Thanks to the Admins for stepping up and addressing this. I look forward to the new thread and discussion and seeing how the TOS will address this.
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Legendryder View Post
Now this is the way to explain it. Thank you for your subtle and kind words.

I think it's an important part of being a community member to be able to call each other out on our mistakes in a way that is respectful, and allows us to be human and grow.
No one should be vilified because there are things they need to learn. We all have things we need to learn and that will only happen if we respect each other enough to give a heads up when it's called for.

It's one way to have each others backs.

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Old 11-22-2009, 06:40 PM   #28
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I agree with you, totally. I would say something mildly intelligent, however, I got my brain melted today. My goofy butt picked "Does Media in the Courtroom Effect 6th Amendment Rights" as an expository essay topic. I couldn't have picked the 14th Amendment, no......I had to pick the least relevant one. So, finding resorces to cite was like pulling teeth out of a horse. Took me eight hours to write a 500 word paper. So, I be fried.
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau View Post
Morningstar,
There is no reason to be sorry. no matter what a person posts, or says , or does someone will find it insulting, annoying, politically incorrect, or some other something. that is life in the cosmos. And sometimes u just have to do three things:

1. say wtf
2. not be afraid to laugh at yourself
3. Look at it and say in the greater scheme of things does it really matter.

and sometimes u just have to put on your teflon suit and stand proud.

Or you can do a fourth thing and take a step back from your self and see why others would find it offensive. Then you can actually try to think about it from a different POV.

Dean, your response is what set my teeth on edge. If you honestly do not see anything wrong with objectifying women as well as being demeaned as a drooling fool, then that's your choice. However, I'm sure there are far more accepting places for that kind of attitude than this Planet.

Barb, I do know you and I do not think you did this for any reason other than you found it funny. Sometimes, you have to rethink what is funny and examine things a bit, right? You are not a stupid or uncaring woman. So do know that.

My thought would be this...if I am going to post something I think is funny, then I examine it to see if it really would be.

People get offended by things I never see coming. My family thinks I'm a humorless beeyotch because I will send things back and tell them why it is not funny. And that's okay. I'd rather be thought of as unfunny than see/read the constant barrage of mean-spirited jokes.

Back to you, Dean. Your response came across as very defensive. Did you stop to consider what was being said about the link or did you just kneejerk your reaction? I ask that in all sincerity because I know that I have kneejerked a reaction or two (hundred) in my day.

So which is it, Dean? Are you a thinking, caring butch or are you the misogynistic jerk you have portrayed yourself as here?
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:53 PM   #30
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Jack and Medusa,

Thank you. I know I struggle with oral and written communication. I know what I say comes out wrong or strangley sometimes. But I do appreciate what you are doing here. Thank you from my heart and soul. I don't feel alone anymore. I feel like I have a family again. When you are a shut-in, and have little to no bf community, you have no idea of how lonely it gets.

Love,
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:14 PM   #31
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all i can say .after reading all these response's is..
WOW!!
this was just so suppose to be just a lil funny thing to post...
its been posted in a lot of bf places.. and this is the 1st time. it has goten soo many negitive reviews........
i am sooooo sorry it offended some of you..... i say some
cause some did find it funny and some didnt
sometimes i feel i cant win for losing.......
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:15 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by morningstar55 View Post
all i can say .after reading all these response's is..
WOW!!
this was just so suppose to be just a lil funny thing to post...
its been posted in a lot of bf places.. and this is the 1st time. it has goten soo many negitive reviews........
i am sooooo sorry it offended some of you..... i say some
cause some did find it funny and some didnt
sometimes i feel i cant win for losing.......
Betcha didn't know you were going to open a------->

Last edited by Legendryder; 11-22-2009 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Advanced brain melt
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:19 PM   #33
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Not my cup of tea, sorry.
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:54 PM   #34
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Default Shoot!

I just deleted a post I had written, by bumping something...?! Darn it!

In a nutshell, I DON'T care for that "beating a dead horse" emoticon - at all. And I'm personally glad there are programs/organizations for protecting animals against abuse, just sayin'...

Just goes to show ya, where we are all at different places in our realities with varying values and such... (and I think I have a pretty good sense of humor too).
___

And I also wrote that with ALL that has been hashed out in previous "community" sites on this type of topic or "issue of concern" over so many years, I would hope that a BRAND NEW SITE nips the sexist, anti-woman shit right away! Unfortunately, it will probably be an ongoing struggle though. Folks do need to speak out, or we just won't be as special as we truly know that we are. I'm proud to be queer.

It has all been so hurtful to so many - for WAY TOO LONG NOW. Is it worth a "laugh", that causes so much pain? And why would anyone be acting/feeling challenged here to anyone standing up against this? (Women feeling hurt, or someone thinking/believing something is uncomfortable for them to see or if it feels misogynist to them, that is.) What kind of energy is that to put out here, or anywhere? I don't understand that, really (?)

This site WAS started by two women, inviting everyone to join. How considerate.

Now, the link was not showing a rape, but yes to women as simply a piece of ass. That is where the atrocities against women are continually encouraged, with beginning disregard for being a human being at all, and often utilizing humor to get this message out "non-offensively"... (?) I didn't laugh at it, but can see how someone might find it humorous, the "joke" hypnotizing part of it... but, then where and why did we develop to finding this funny? That is what folks are asking others to consider and really think about here, IMHO. What perpetuates this mentality?

One way of thinking does lead to women being hurt, to varying degrees. It really does. Some ways are very "subtle". Is the blatant the only thing that needs to be addressed?

I don't want to support that, which is against me - and especially not in our community. I find it very sad actually.

And yes, this is just a "fun and fluff" thread. Passing a joke about is not the same as opening a thread - that is for the world now historically representing (NOT!) what the founders of this site are trying/hoping/wishing to send as a positive message in our community and to the world at large - or showing us "going at it" with each other over these kinds of demeaning against women topics. And for us also to have a respectful place, to and for ourselves. Feel safe. Comfort. Home away from home...

Plus, I believe if any part of our community is "hurt" we all suffer - in so many different ways. It diminishes us as a whole for one, that is for certain. We should be strong for having suffered, and this just further weakens us (again in my humble opinion). It's like throwing our own, to the "bad guys". How pleasant.

I truly hope some folks don't think new site = green light to come and be "piggish" and/or disregard people's feelings. That is so OLD. Changes should bring about new opportunities for growth and understanding, I would hope so anyway. (And this is not about the opening poster at all! Just my response about reactions and concerns folks have - which I completely understand, support and agree with.)

And I can see why some "butches" would also take offense to this on another level as well.

So, it's about sensitivity and "representing" mostly to me here at this point...(?)

Hope this made any sense. Good luck everyone!


PEACE!
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:57 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morningstar55 View Post
all i can say .after reading all these response's is..
WOW!!
this was just so suppose to be just a lil funny thing to post...
its been posted in a lot of bf places.. and this is the 1st time. it has goten soo many negitive reviews........
i am sooooo sorry it offended some of you..... i say some
cause some did find it funny and some didnt
sometimes i feel i cant win for losing.......
Morningstar, no one here is questioning your intentions. We all get that you were just trying to share a joke. But now, those of us that found your joke hurtful are asking you, as part of our butch and femme family, to take a look at it and try to understand why we weren't amused and why it really isn't funny.

We aren't taking you to task, I promise. We just would really appreciate it if you would look at what you posted with a critical eye. A joke like that isn't harmless, especially when it goes viral, and is seen by thousands of people, many of whom will not be viewing it with good intentions at all.

Sexism is so well entrenched in our society that most of us just take its many manifestations for granted. For example, advertising utilizes sexist imagery constantly, which reinforces the idea of women as second class citizens. We all have helped perpetuate this notion at some point, therefore the responsibility belongs to all of us to help dismantle it.
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:09 PM   #36
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AGAIN.....
I AM .. sorry ....... for offending .... some of you...
i say ... SOME...... cause some found it funny....
i did think it was kinda funny ......... maybe i have a wierd sense of humor i dont know.......
i guess i need to get approval to post other funny video's........
here is a link......... of something else..... I and some others thought was funny.
but i suppose it might offend someone as well.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245

ya know..... i have said i was sorry and thats the end.,,zippin it
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:28 PM   #37
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All I can suggest is kill this thread. Before it gets TOTALLY out of hand.
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morningstar55 View Post
AGAIN.....
I AM .. sorry ....... for offending .... some of you...
i say ... SOME...... cause some found it funny....
i did think it was kinda funny ok.......... i maybe i have a wierd sense of humore i dont know.......
i guess i need to get approval to post other funny video's........
here is a link......... of something else..... I and some others thought was funny.
but i suppose it might offend someone as well.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245

ya know..... i have said i was sorry and thats the end.,,zippin it
I didn't open this yet, I just wanted to say that I do not find you offensive at all. And the short video can and will be seen as "funny" by many - I'm sure. I think when folks say they are "hurt", and or feeling "objectified" by stuff out there and now here, where this is posted... is what I am going to take a good look at then, try to understand and do my best to help support.

It's all about learning and growing together. We are a large and very proud community.

And many are wounded, and trying to seek refuge from that which hurts us out and about in the real world. And also, this connection to community, for many of us, is what we have right now. I live in a very rural place. (NO COMMUNITY HERE in my neck of the woods!! LOL!!)

I just hate to see anyone hurting, and that includes you. Just try and let it go perhaps - you didn't see any harm in this and now others have explained "why 'tis so" for them. People's expressions are not always directed at someone sharing about something, but rather the source and reasoning being it.

So, all in all, I should "thank you" for posting the link. Good lesson for a new baby site! Right?

Now I will open up your other "funny link", and I may laugh! Who knows? Consider where and what to share publicly, I try and think to myself. But, we don't know what we don't know, until we "know it". Ya know?! And yes, I have "knee-jerked" on the internet myself on occasion. Guilty. It's going to happen, for we are HUMAN.


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Old 11-22-2009, 08:37 PM   #39
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I think this thread can be useful as a learning aid regarding all manner of important issues as well as examining social behavior versus antisocial behavior.

Morningstar, no one has asked for an apology. We're asking that you take a look at why you found this particular image funny and why others do not.
Dig a little deeper. This is not a question of taste. It's a question of perpetuating a deep seated prejudice against women via supposedly "harmless" means.
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:47 PM   #40
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I am completely outraged!

I cannot believe that after Morningstar ( yes a lovely member of OUR community ) apologized TWICE for posting something SOME people find offensive that she was still beat up over it. So it becomes a free for all?
Lets all pretend to be therapists and *counsel* the poster. WTF !!!!! Must be nice to live in glass houses.

I see LOTS of things done in the name of humor that are offensive, IMO.
Hell Wanda Sykes offended the hell out of me last night, I didn't beat her up because it was not funny IN MY OPINION. Some people probably thought she was hilarious.

I see LOTS of posts that I find offensive on ALL of the BF sites.. so I skip over them. I don't beat up the person who posted it! If its "not my cup of tea" I skip over it and I do LOTS of skipping.

Seeing that causes rape and sexual abuse? WTF is that about? I assure you that seeing that video does not *turn* someone into a rapist.

Morningstar I am very sorry this happened to you and I do believe if you were one of the *cool kids * this would NOT have happened to you.

Please don't stop trying to bring lighthearted humor to us. I find you a breath of fresh air among those of us that are wound up just too goddamn tight
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