The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[Nat]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

very interesting post Nat! Do you mind explaining how you defer to men and maleness?

I kind of have the opposite thing going on, if a man or someone I perceive as male says something about how I should act I laugh, if a woman does I take it to heart way too much.

I wonder if maybe it's how we grew up? our childhoods? Maybe because my Mom died when I was so young, I yearn for female approval and am more freaked out when I don't get it?

Thanks

The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed.

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water.

Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.

[PinkieLee]

I find it refreshing that as time goes by, more femmes are becoming vocal about how they embrace femme. By speaking out, we can start breaking down those "stepford wives" sterotypes that so many people have stuck in their head of what femmes should be.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Nat

Thanks

The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed.

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water.

Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.

No, that makes sense about me and men I think. Maybe I am defiant. I have not thought about it from that standpoint.

I actually am kind of defiant in general and hate being told what to do by anyone. Like I REALLY hate it. I am not sure I treat anyone with deference, unless they are really old. Respect yes, deference no.

At 32, I think I did though. 40 was a big watershed for me.

I have experienced Femmes absolutely refusing to call Cynthia "She: or even "Cynthia". Several have suggested she go by "Chris", because they had been "taught" that Butches should be referred to as Hy or He and by a male name. I am glad that you now see the difference in respecting their wishes as a person and giving them deference because they are Butch or Male.

Nat, I have always thought you were very respectful of people and way more open minded about gender fluidity than most. I can see you have given this a lot of though and am glad you have come to the conclusion that respect does not mean deference.

I hope that as you age the voice in your head that says a male voice is more powerful than a female voice fades, like it has for me. I think it will.

Very interesting discussion!

[PinkieLee]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Remember that many of those photos are taken at events where everyone is more dressed up than usual!

I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt.

The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves.

I can soooo relate to this, too!

When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee".

Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7.

I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by PinkieLee

I can soooo relate to this, too!

When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee".

Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7.

I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels.

Grin! Me either. Not a single one.

It is fun to play dress up sometimes and yes I look better in makeup than without...which is probably why I tend to post party pictures. That and I don't like having my picture taken, so all I have are partyish photos.

PS and the boa leaves feathers all over the place.

[Tucker]

I grew up in a world that tried to force me to look and act a certain way. I was raised to be the "pretty little thing in her pink little dress".
Although, I did end up embracing that role, it has always been horrifying to me that when I meet straight men or other lesbians, I hear " if you wanted to date something that looked like a man, why don't you just date men?"
No one has the right to judge how I choose to fuck, or who I choose to fuck!
And, just because I am femme, in NO way means that I should be with someone that I don't want to be with!

I have been very hesitant to comment because I am not looking to upset anyone or cause anything. I am purely just speaking for myself here. This is how I feel.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Tucker

I grew up in a world that tried to force me to look and act a certain way. I was raised to be the "pretty little thing in her pink little dress".
Although, I did end up embracing that role, it has always been horrifying to me that when I meet straight men or other lesbians, I hear " if you wanted to date something that looked like a man, why don't you just date men?"
No one has the right to judge how I choose to fuck, or who I choose to fuck!
And, just because I am femme, in NO way means that I should be with someone that I don't want to be with!

I have been very hesitant to comment because I am not looking to upset anyone or cause anything. I am purely just speaking for myself here. This is how I feel.

I have heard the same words and was raised similarly.

I hate it when someone suggests that they have a better idea of whom I should date than I do!

Grrrrr.

People need to mind their own bees wax!

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Nat

I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.

Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes.

The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race.

It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way.

The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how?

Hopefully not invading on femme space, but this was a beautiful post. Thank you.

[Martina]

i am kind of talked out on this subject. i have said it all before. i have enjoyed some of the posts a lot. i don't buy into the continuum idea. i am femme. End of that conversation.

Most of the talk about femme doesn't resonate for me. i don't think of it so much in terms of my femininity or even my relationship to butches.

i came out as femme about the same time i came out as kinky. And one of the things i had to defend was loving to get fucked and loving to get fucked by big mean butches. These days, that's everyday gender performance. A femme talking about loving to go down on her butch partner is more likely to evoke surprise. But back in the day, it was shocking.

i am femme because it's part of my history. i don't express it in everything that i do and in every way that i fuck. i don't exude femme. i don't represent femme. i don't define it or let it define me. i don't classify everything that i do in terms of gender expression. If i spread my legs wide, i may not be enacting my inner boy or expressing my inner whore. i may just be getting comfortable. If my bedroom is decorated with pink and yellow scarves and floral prints this year while last year it was all chrome and black and white photos, it may not mean anything more than i wanted some color.

i don't play with gender for pleasure although i have in the past. i am old and settled and comfortable. i like gender in me and in others. Absence of gender markers is not hot to me. But gender is not my major (or even minor) route of self-discovery.

In most ways, my gender expression has turned out to look a lot like my straight vanilla mother's did. So it clearly hasn't been that closely tied to my queerness or my kink.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Nat

Thanks

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

As for passing as straight....

I have always, just once, wanted to get the nod from another queer person. You know, like Butches and women who "look" more stereotypically gay do.

Maybe at the reunion, we can give each other the nod?

I would love this too.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by blush

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is the reality testing. This has been my perception too, but I am wondering now if I'm projecting or imagining this because of something going on inside myself rather than in the community.

I don't have a good method for quantifying what the reality is. If I had enough time or enough help to go back through a day's worth of everybody's posts or even just the threads that are specifically about gender recognition and respect and pull out every statement about those who "get it wrong" and see how many of them are femmes and if there is an objective way to measure the difference in tone between the statements about femmes and the statements about others who "get it wrong."

And then to go back through - and I really don't know how this would even be done - and find every single time a person has "gotten it wrong" to calculate who is getting it wrong and in which direction - well I'm sure it would be fascinating research but very difficult and time-consuming.

So, what I'm left with is a feeling. A feeling I don't know what to do with. I don't know if it's valid. I don't know how much of it is internal and how much external. I don't know how to gauge that either.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

I don't think asking anyone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing, it's just polite and showing someone consideration, if they are asking and clearly stating this is their preference why wouldn't I respect that or why wouldn't anyone? We (Femmes) want respect, want our gender to be heard, seen and respected, the same goes for everyone else.

Not policing you here, just sharing and talking this out. Thanks for listening

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action?

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

I don't feel pushed to be hyper-feminine these days, but I do wish I could find more ways to play with femininity in an obviously queer way. I wish there were a recognizable something we femmes could do that could make us more recognizably "family." Like Apocalypstic, I want the queer nod of acknowledgment sometimes. When I talk to women who set off my 'dar at work, I want them to get that I'm a femme. I'm the only out lesbian in a huge cubicle-land office with hundreds of women in it (and only a handfull of men), but even as an out lesbian, I can't get myself out of the damn closet.

Maybe we need to enact some sort of femme hanky code.

Originally Posted by Medusa

There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community.
Thoughts on this?

I think this is an inducement to intentionally gender-bait and it's no prettier than when it's done to anybody else. Femmes may not be "he'd" on a regular basis, but our gender is entirely ignored, misinterpreted and misunderstood most of the time by most people we run across, even when we explain it over and over again.

My latest frustration is that I made the mistake of complimenting a straight cisgendered man on his charisma and speaking skills after he spoke in front of the class (and did so brilliantly), and he interpreted that as an open invitation to my pants. Not only am I invisible as a queer person, but the consequence of that is having to fend off unwanted advances from cisgendered straight guys. Then again, being interpreted as a lesbian is no guarantee of sexual harrassment avoidance.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't think asking anyone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing, it's just polite and showing someone consideration, if they are asking and clearly stating this is their preference why wouldn't I respect that or why wouldn't anyone? We (Femmes) want respect, want our gender to be heard, seen and respected, the same goes for everyone else.

Not policing you here, just sharing and talking this out. Thanks for listening

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

```This is coming from my POV and only mine and it does not mean I think ALL femme's do this.~~~

I see it all the time femme's defaulting to the he pronoun automatically, and when the butch or person corrects them, they have been know to be dismissive, and insulting and even go as far as ASK why they aren't so. That's what *I* I am talking about when I am speaking of that particular matter.

Thanks for listening

[christie]

Originally Posted by blush

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by christie0918

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

No that is not what is being said at all from what I gather from *any* of the femme's who have voiced their opinions on this and experiences.

Thank you

[SuperFemme]

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

```This is coming from my POV and only mine and it does not mean I think ALL femme's do this.~~~

I see it all the time femme's defaulting to the he pronoun automatically, and when the butch or person corrects them, they have been know to be dismissive, and insulting and even go as far as ASK why they aren't so. That's what *I* I am talking about when I am speaking of that particular matter.

Thanks for listening

I ask this honestly, not snotty, cause you could prolly whip me around quite a bit...

Is it only femmes? Or do "we" (the collective we) just notice it more and remember it more?

I've seen it from both sides of the fence.