Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Diva

I believe it took a lot of courage to say what you just said here. No need to vomit. You have learned from your own history and that is something to be embraced, yes? <smile>

I believe, too, that you ARE finding your own power.....just by posting this evolving moment. I admire you.

Thank you, kind, sweet Diva. xo

Courage is a funny thing to me. I have done some things that have been considered courageous. (As all of us have, right?) But, everything I've done that seems courageous, including writing the above post, is just an expression of something or another that had to be said or done. There is a point when it is more difficult and more painful to hold something back than to just say the truth. Every time I have one of these moments, when I have to tell the truth, I feel bigger and stronger. I feel more of the woman that I am. My affinity for other women also raises. It hasn't been difficult for me to accept the wide range of self-expression I've encountered on these sites. The more I accept myself, the more comfortable I am with the whole range of expression of others'.

Lynn
(resisting the kneejerk urge to apologize for posting twice...what the fuck is that?)

[SuperFemme]

My favorite Queer As Folk quote? Brian Kinney - No regrets, no apologies, no excuses. Fabulous outlook!

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

...Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread...

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

I think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that I am always conscious of posting in a way that supports Butches and Transmen, and while I did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--Adele had asked if we, as Femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

I'm sorry that I didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that I'm backpedaling, or that I haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought I was saying it was the Butches who left me feeling this way when I was trying to say it was Femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where I haven't been clear enough---after a while I start to feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground and so I do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when I posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about Butches and Transmen but about all of us, but I didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now I really do feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* Time for me to go offline; if I'm not back tomorrow I'll be back Monday.

[blush]

Originally Posted by June

...So many Fake Baby Girls, so little time to make them all Apple Butter...

This is my quote for the day.

And I may steal it and use it and never give you credit.

[blush]

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

we're all responsible for the misogyny of a space--i don't think any one of us born/conditioned to be *female* in this society can escape some level of internalized xyz-phobia.

specifically, what i find most troubling is this femme- *sublimation* of herself to/for 'the masculine' as she devalues the female (or possibly just *femme*, case depending) while celebrating the masculine (male case depending). and not so suddenly we're all unwilling or not, participants even if our only participation was being a witness.

-i shall return-

[apretty]

Originally Posted by blush

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by blush

This is my quote for the day.

And I may steal it and use it and never give you credit.

I was seriously considering making it my signature line.

Originally Posted by blush

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

Commence thread stalking.

I'm glad you spoke to this aspect of "standing in a community." I've seen a bit of this in the realz. A femme attends local butch/femme meetings, begins to date another femme, or a male (of any variety) and suddenly other folks start to question her presence in the community. As if who she is bangin' has anything to do with her sense of community belonging, or deep affiliation.

What? We can only check one box now?

Originally Posted by apretty

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

Sexbits.

I blush.

[bonne-maman]

Oh man, (oops)

I have been reading the posts and loving the energy, words hadn't quite come to the tips of my fingertips. But, the thread has obviously entered my subconscious.

I just remembered I dreamt last night that I was dressed as a babygirl at the Michigan Women's Music Festival.

That must be the weirdest fucking convergence of femme, feminist, girl, female subtex.

There were other babygirls here and there at the Fest as well. At one point someone was trying to ask me if I needed help getting out of there, as I obviously didn't belong (to her). I looked at her coldly, and said, "No." You see, I was dressed as a babygirl, but certainly wasn't feeling one inside, and certainly had no butch lookin after me. I was kind of a babygirl ethnographer on a mission. Observing how the festies reacted to me and the other babygirls.

I had the cutest little gingham outfit.

Anyhow, a tad about me, just to add to the diverse-titty of us. I came out as a lesbian-feminist in 1979 in one of the many super-insulated, almost separatist, lesbian-feminist communities around the country at the time. Three years later I discovered the word femme, and knew it was who I was. I found this word in the middle of a worldwide protest movement against long range nuclear missiles, when I was sleeping many nights in a lesbo-constructed protest structure on the grounds of a corporation that built the guidance systems for these missiles. I knew femme was me because I did things like: 1) painted my bedroom in the lesbo collective houseshold pink 2) decorated said room with my babydolls from my childhood 3) wore a collection of thrift store dresses, and skirts against my hairy legs amidst the jeans and political t-shirts 4) threw tea parties and garden parties for the grumpy lesbian masses.

Anyhow, all of this was tolerated by the androgynous masses, probably because I did it in a butchless, asexual vacuum. The femme who I am has always been just that, who I am.

I think my biggest struggle with inclusion/feeling sidelined on these sites has been the anti-lesbian sentiment which is sometimes subtle and sometimes oh-so-very Overt.

And, being on these sites has been an opportunity to enrich myself and my femmeness in so many ways. To be friends with girls/women/femmes who wear makeup and high heels has been profoundly moving and affirming. You all have always scared the shit outta me!!!!

[Arwen]

So I'm late to this party. Bite me. I will be multi-quoting in purple and using emoticons. Double bite me.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?

Sometimes I think it is a way to silence ourselves. I think I try to force myself into the "expected roles". And you know what? It hurts. It doesn't feel good to do something or say something simply because that's what "our community" does or expects of me.

But when I don't toe the "party" line, I am in danger of being ostracized. And that hurts too. Sometimes more than doing what is expected.

So do I to the expected party line or do I become a and make my own way?

It's an ongoing struggle.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

So guilty of this but more forgiving when it is from someone I have become friends with OR that I have seen post "meatier" posts as well. Those that post only fluff are often looked down on by those that don't.

Why is that? Do those that post only fluff take away from who I am in any way? Do their words and colors and emoticons diminish me personally? The concept of "femme" as a whole?

No. Not even one iota. What FemmeA says in purple, italic, Georgia font about being a babygirl has NOTHING to do with me. It, like the color of her font, doesn't rub off.

So I need to check my own "party" line at the door. I am as guilty of doing to that femme as what has been done to me in an effort to silence or censure me.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Ha! Perhaps at times I do. Other times I get incredibly frustrated when my non-demur/polite mouth results in anger from others. I make it a point to take care of me and speak my needs (not rudely or aggressively) and at times have felt frowned upon for this.

We've talked about this, I think. I am seen as rude and aggressive quite often because of my very dogmatic way of expressing myself. Because I prefer to be honest and upfront, that is often seen as "mean."

I think being called "mean" is a way of trying to force me into someone else's box. So I am learning to stand on my own two feet (at 48...you think I would have learned this by now) and not worry about it. But it still hurts.

I've learned a lot specifically from you, A. Because of you. Through you. From you. You have been an amazing teacher even when you didn't know it.

Originally Posted by June

In June's dream world, which is very different from the Barbie variety, what they will find is a full spectrum of Femme-ness (c) that includes all of us regardless of our skill level or presentation. I want to say to them "Hey, Baby Femme! Wear that damn baseball hat backwards if you want! Don't be afraid to change that tire and brag about it! Fix that friggin' sink! Win at Pool because you've got the Mad Skillz!"

Sometimes, the stereotyping threads, to me, are fun simply because they point out how different we all are. Why not start a thread here that addresses this very thing, June? That femme is self-defined. Period.

It is not "who I'm boinking" defined.
It is not "what color is my lipstick" defined.
It is not "how long is my dildo" defined.
It is not "how polite am I in public" defined.
It is not "how short my skirts are" defined.
and so on.

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.

my lesbian friends used to ream me for being myself all the time. we're not friends anymore. if my femme friends begin to do the same i'll happily do without them as well. i love my friends but without them, i'm just fine.

Amen. Just A-freaking-men (or woman?). This was very well said. I particularly liked "It's not an act for someone else."

Originally Posted by Lynn

I reread an old post of mine on another site, replete with these apologies, just today and I wanted to vomit. In life, as well as on line, I still haven't found how to be as strong an advocate for myself as I am for everyone else.

That, Lynn, is what I call a journey. You are on one. I'm on one. Mine started in 2006(I think... maybe 2003) of acknowledging and exploring the term femme. Hang in there. And don't stop apologizing until you feel like it. Even that is yours and no one gets to define you.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

My favorite Queer As Folk quote? Brian Kinney - No regrets, no apologies, no excuses. Fabulous outlook!

See! Another reason I love you. You give great quote!

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

Anyhow, a tad about me, just to add to the diverse-titty of us. I came out as a lesbian-feminist in 1979 in one of the many super-insulated, almost separatist, lesbian-feminist communities around the country at the time.
Snip really good stuff
I think my biggest struggle with inclusion/feeling sidelined on these sites has been the anti-lesbian sentiment which is sometimes subtle and sometimes oh-so-very Overt.

And, being on these sites has been an opportunity to enrich myself and my femmeness in so many ways. To be friends with girls/women/femmes who wear makeup and high heels has been profoundly moving and affirming. You all have always scared the shit outta me!!!!

I am one who has been overtly anti-lesbian because of past hurts. I do not id as a lesbian for a lot of reasons I have gone diarrhea-mouth over on the Dash site. I take ownership here and now of allowing those specific women (because Gods know it has not been all lesbians) who hurt me to color my view of the word lesbian.

And your last line? Me too! Seriously.

P.S. Did you come out in upstate NY? Because those were some hardcore dyke-feminists.

And isn't it odd. I'm fine with calling myself a dyke, but not a lesbian. Must explore that.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Bit

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

{{{Bit}}}

I think this is a great place to talk about the ways in which that has happened. And why are we silencing one another? What does it mean that we do this?

Are we, as a friend suggested (thanks hudson), playing out the evolutionary battle in a competition for resources (butch/masculine people)? Is this what that competition begins to look like when it becomes so fiercely ingrained?

And is this why our masculine counterparts seem to be in their own power-struggle? Or does it truly, at baseline, have to do with misogyny?

Is misogyny the result of that struggle?

These questions aren't really for this thread, I suppose, so forgive my tangential mind. But I do wonder about the ways that we silence one another. And at least about the more topical reasons as to why.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by evolveme

{{{Bit}}}

I think this is a great place to talk about the ways in which that has happened. And why are we silencing one another? What does it mean that we do this?

Are we, as a friend suggested (thanks hudson), playing out the evolutionary battle in a competition for resources (butch/masculine people)? Is this what that competition begins to look like when it becomes so fiercely ingrained?

And is this why our masculine counterparts seem to be in their own power-struggle? Or does it truly, at baseline, have to do with misogyny?

Is misogyny the result of that struggle?

These questions aren't really for this thread, I suppose, so forgive my tangential mind. But I do wonder about the ways that we silence one another. And at least about the more topical reasons as to why.

I think it may be that the competition is fear-based. Not just fear of butch as resource but fear of not being enough.

We throw ourselves into our lives so thoroughly. When someone else comes along who may take up space in our lives that we are not willing to yield, we want to scream :shutup:.

Instead of screaming, we turn into those catty, nasty women none of us seem to like or want to be. We gather with our friends to be reminded of how fabulous WE are and how fabulouse THEY aren't.

This, to me, has nothing to do with butch-femme and everything to do with SuperId, Id, and Ego.

And, for what it's worth, I think this is very apropos to the dynamic and evolution of this thread.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by blush

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

We are both subsumed and erased in turns.

This in itself is the crux of the reason behind my decision to write this letter to all of you. I wrote something once about how I do not see myself as "invisible." I am not an invisible femme. Whether or not I am seen is merely a determination as to the clarity in the eyesight of others.

I intend, only, to stand tall enough so as not to be missed should they endeavor to look.

Originally Posted by apretty

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

I hope more ladypeople come in here and read this!

[evolveme]

Dear Bonne,

babygirl ethnographer on a mission.

You just fuckin' made my goddamned day.

I you like you don't know what,

e

[Diva]

I do feel like some of the reasons we push each other down is to climb on top of each other in order to reach some fantasy superior position. To what end?

Are we afraid we'll suffocate? Is it ~ forgive me ~ "every man for himself" kind of mentality? Because frankly, I don't get that. But I do believe it is fear~based.

And I guess the older I get, I just don't have TIME for it. I don't have time for Pot/Kettle stuff. It's that stones/glass houses, heat/kitchen thing.

And yes.....I can be catty and judgemental and I'm so not perfect....and it just kills me (not really) how we get so whiney when we are criticized about our behavior and then go and do the same damn thing! What manner of heinous fuckery is that?

That being said, I don't think femmes have the corner of the market on THAT.

Now. Will I get shot down for being brutally honest about this? Maybe. But I can tell You this: I have no problem loading the rifle and handing it to You. Fire away.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Diva

it just kills me (not really) how we get so whiney when we are criticized about our behavior and then go and do the same damn thing! What manner of heinous fuckery is that?

I so agree with this, Diva. But I think those that do not react to the criticism are simply not buying into the "corrections" we offer. They are living their lives in their own way and to their own drummers. That may be why there is more than one band.

I wonder when I criticize someone...am I hoping they will correct their ways? Toe my "party" line? I have to think on that a bit more. I do know that my own response to open, honest critique (and there is a difference, to me, between critique and criticism) is to bounce it off a few others. If I get buy in from those I trust, then I am apt to listen to the critique.

If I don't? Grin, well I continue on as I have and let the criticism roll on down the old back.

I do hope no one "shoots" you down. I think your opinion and worldview is as valuable as the rest here.

[Boots13]

Dear E;
I love your style ! And certainly the
head-on way you broach subjects that seem
to be "blind spots" in the vision test. This thread
is an eye-opening education regarding the Femme
"smackdown" by way of Butch, Patriarchal,
Societal and the worst (from my perspective)
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's
that "friendly fire" , being shanked
by a stiletto, that has always perplexed me.

We are all fighting mortal combat in an effort
to be seen and not steamrolled into a homogeny
of expectation. But it pains me to think that femmes
feel they have been relegated to "Best Supporting
Actress" in our symbiotic relationships (Femme - Butch)
when the meat and potatoes of validation is : see
me for who I am.

I love this thread, and I have much to recognize. Perhaps
this is my first lesson in understanding Butchbull
behavior in the Femme china shop (not meant to
infer Femmes are delicate) as well as the snares and pitfalls
of Femme V Femme.

Lambaste me if you will, but I'm hanging around the halls ...this thread is good stuff !

signed :
Excuse me Waiter, there's a butch in my soup....
Boots

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

and the worst (from my perspective)
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's
that "friendly fire" , being shanked
by a stiletto, that has always perplexed me.
[/COLOR]

What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Arwen

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]

I am one who has been overtly anti-lesbian because of past hurts. I do not id as a lesbian for a lot of reasons I have gone diarrhea-mouth over on the Dash site. I take ownership here and now of allowing those specific women (because Gods know it has not been all lesbians) who hurt me to color my view of the word lesbian.

And your last line? Me too! Seriously.

P.S. Did you come out in upstate NY? Because those were some hardcore dyke-feminists.

Arwen, thank you so much for acknowledging anti-lesbian stuff. I have not experienced this with you, ever, but having you acknowledge this affirms my experience with others, which is comforting to me. And, I came out in Minneapolis, but I think our community here in the late 70's and 80's was very similar to the upstate NY community. Thank god many of us finally found our perspective, and senses of humor, again.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think it may be that the competition is fear-based. Not just fear of butch as resource but fear of not being enough.

[snip]

This, to me, has nothing to do with butch-femme and everything to do with SuperId, Id, and Ego.

And, for what it's worth, I think this is very apropos to the dynamic and evolution of this thread.

I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Dear Bonne,

babygirl ethnographer on a mission.

You just fuckin' made my goddamned day.

I you like you don't know what,

e

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddamned day when you say shit like this!

[Diva]

Originally Posted by evolveme

What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.

And this is the crux of the matter, n'est pas?

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory? I can be cordial to just about anyone....but I don't feel I need to be joined at the hip to a femme just because.....does that make me a femme betrayor....a community slayer?
I can love everyone....but I don't think that means I must LIKE everyone, does it?