Third or Other Gender Butch

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Like Greyson, I came from the school of thought (and literature), that butch was a gender separate from woman and man. One was neither woman nor man, but just simply butch. The noun. If you said that you were a butch woman, then you were using butch as an adjective and not as a noun (a gender).

When I came to B/F.com (late 1990's), I noticed that the above was not the case. Subsequently, I did not identify as "simply butch" on said site, as I am not a woman.

I use butch as a noun for myself not as an adjective, and I am a woman also.

[AtLast]

I may be double-gendered..... female & butch.... which is how I view myself in terms of being female-other. This feels like a sub-identification of butch to me.

When is all said & done, my guess is that there are many genders!

multiplistc boink...

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I use butch as a noun for myself not as an adjective, and I am a woman also.

BullDog, do you use woman as a noun also and not a descriptor, adjective? I am asking this question in the spirit of seeking understanding. It's not meant to be a slander of some sort.

I use the words "Transmasculine Butch" to attempt to identify my gender with some clarity. Transpmasculine is an adjective, Butch is a noun. Transmasculine offers some insight to my belief that I fit somewhere on the spectrum of Transgender and have taken steps to move toward the legal recognition of my "otherness." Unfortunately, in our current legal system, in most countries there is only the option of being recognized legally as a man or woman.

There is one exception that I am aware of and that is because Linus posted a link with a story about a person born as a cisgender man, transitioned to become female, then decided that she/he was non-gendered. England did grant this person legal status as non-gendered.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

BullDog, do you use woman as a noun also and not a descriptor, adjective? I am asking this question in the spirit of seeking understanding. It's not meant to be a slander of some sort.

I use the words "Transmasculine Butch" to attempt to identify my gender with some clarity. Transpmasculine is an adjective, Butch is a noun. Transmasculine offers some insight to my belief that I fit somewhere on the spectrum of Transgender and have taken steps to move toward the legal recognition of my "otherness." Unfortunately, in our current legal system, in most countries there is only the option of being recognized legally as a man or woman.

There is one exception that I am aware of and that is because Linus posted a link with a story about a person born as a cisgender man, transitioned to become female, then decided that she/he was non-gendered. England did grant this person legal status as non-gendered.

Yes, both Butch and Woman are nouns. Thank you for the clarification on transmasculine.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I use the words "Transmasculine Butch" to attempt to identify my gender with some clarity. Transpmasculine is an adjective, Butch is a noun. Transmasculine offers some insight to my belief that I fit somewhere on the spectrum of Transgender and have taken steps to move toward the legal recognition of my "otherness." Unfortunately, in our current legal system, in most countries there is only the option of being recognized legally as a man or woman.

And this needs to change! So many are simply being cast back into the binary because of this. It negates who they are as a kind of double-whammy, or a Catch-22!

There is one exception that I am aware of and that is because Linus posted a link with a story about a person born as a cisgender man, transitioned to become female, then decided that she/he was non-gendered. England did grant this person legal status as non-gendered.

This is so very interesting! Thanks, Linus! Needs to be many, many, more exceptions!

[BullDog]

I have never understood why our genders or biological sex (whatever they may be) need to have a legal status to begin with.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I have never understood why our genders or biological sex (whatever they may be) need to have a legal status to begin with.

That is a very excellent point. I have wondered myself but this is the current reality I/we live in and I try to thrive in. I think this need to codify ones gender and/or biological sex is most likely grounded, and mired in patriarchy.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Greyson

That is a very excellent point. I have wondered myself but this is the current reality I/we live in and I try to thrive in. I think this need to codify ones gender and/or biological sex is most likely grounded, and mired in patriarchy.

Absolutely rooted in patriarchy! And male-dominated jurisprudence. Not all that long ago, historically (speaking about modern western cultures, as this is still true in some other cultures), women could not own property, including children they bore! They could not divorce ... or vote (not until 1920 in the US)!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Absolutely rooted in patriarchy! And male-dominated jurisprudence. Not all that long ago, historically (speaking about modern western cultures, as this is still true in some other cultures), women could not own property, including children they bore! They could not divorce ... or vote (not until 1920 in the US)!

Or even buy a couch or a car, have a bank account, etc without a husband's signature even in the early 60's.

and people have no use for feminism. *teeth suck*

[Jess]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Or even buy a couch or a car, have a bank account, etc without a husband's signature even in the early 60's.

and people have no use for feminism. *teeth suck*

they also could not have hysterectomy's or have other "sterilizing" procedures without consent from husband, even when it was medically advised.

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by Jess

they also could not have hysterectomy's or have other "sterilizing" procedures without consent from husband, even when it was medically advised.

I personally think it's a terrible shame and crime that this still goes on in some countries and cultures.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Jess

they also could not have hysterectomy's or have other "sterilizing" procedures without consent from husband, even when it was medically advised.

There was a special on PBS the other night tracing the steps to Roe v. Wade that brings this to light in so many ways. The whole manner in which women had no say over anything having to do with their bodies. It also brought to light how WOC joined forces in the Feminist Movement as they (along with any poor women) were mostly subject to back-room abortion.

OK, we have derailed the thread!

Now that I think about it, however, if we did live in a perfect world and the binary was NOT used as a legal designation for gender..... how would this play out in terms of women's rights? I'd like to think that this could banish the tenets of male priviledge, but, would it? Seems possible.... but, would it in terms of the obvious gender related wealth and power that lies in the hands of men?

If trangendered and intergendered really became legal gender designations (which I believe should be), would we see (speaking of the US, here) a redistribution of wealth and power based upon gender?

[swagger]

the more i think about gender, as opposed to sex, the more i suspect myself of having no gender. seriously.

[noneoftheabove]

I really like this thread. I can't relate to man or woman either. In my head I have a male body but I am ok with having a physically female body. Somehow my brain is not registering this as a problem, and I have little to no dysphoria. I prefer he because it refers to the male that I see myself as but she is OK with me as long as it is referring to just my surface. I've been more uncomfortable to the people's reactions around me to the pronouns I've been called than to the pronouns themselves.

[Gráinne]

I'm new, and somehow stumbled into this thread.

I am biologically female, but not a woman. I have a strong streak of masculinity in me, but I am not a man. As far back as I can remember, even before realizing I was lesbian, I knew I didn't fit into "girl" or "boy". It's not about transitioning into an "opposite", but realizing that I am both and neither.

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

When I first came out, I thought I had to "pick one"-butch or femme, and I couldn't fit 100% in either. So again, I am both and I am neither. I don't know if "andro" fits, or even if that word is still used. It feels a little unnerving, not having a box to check, so to speak, but on the other hand, it's liberating. I kind of like being open to whatever feels right on a given day.

[chefhottie25]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap...

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.



Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

i agree with both of you. i feel genderfull too. i identify as a boi, but don't feel TG. I bind but not for passing purposes. I don't prefer being referred to as hy over she. i am both...or maybe neither. a good friend and i recently talked about third gender. she said that she views me as non gender conforming. that really seemed to fit me well. i often struggle to find a sense of belonging in the bf community because i don't identify as butch or femme or TG. My outward appearance and my personal care regiments are masculine. However, I do embrace my femme qualities emotionally. I exhibit and express feelings that would be described more as feminine. I feel like a boi but i don't feel like i want to transition. i am not meant to be a male...but i also don't feel female. it is very difficult to explain...and difficult for me to fully understand myself. i hope this thread will generate discourse that will help me to understand it.

[Gryph]

Originally Posted by guihong

I'm new, and somehow stumbled into this thread.

I am biologically female, but not a woman. I have a strong streak of masculinity in me, but I am not a man. As far back as I can remember, even before realizing I was lesbian, I knew I didn't fit into "girl" or "boy". It's not about transitioning into an "opposite", but realizing that I am both and neither.

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

When I first came out, I thought I had to "pick one"-butch or femme, and I couldn't fit 100% in either. So again, I am both and I am neither. I don't know if "andro" fits, or even if that word is still used. It feels a little unnerving, not having a box to check, so to speak, but on the other hand, it's liberating. I kind of like being open to whatever feels right on a given day.

This is why I am a Two-Spirit. Except in my life right now and in the future. I am more masculine and do use the male pronouns. I have already been/done the femme/female, so its time for the other.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by guihong

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

You make sense to me, guihong.

I don't relate to masculine or feminine. Butch is plenty enough for me, except in situations where I use butch woman because I don't wish to be swept up as male identified. (I look "masculine" to some people's eye.)