only another butch would understand - Page 2

PapaC · 11-14-2009, 04:51 PM

I used to do this years ago when I was more into forum participation but this is a new site, so I'd like to suggest something if I may:

maybe there should be a discussion on the definitions of words like:

"emasculate" and "effeminate" as they appear to go hand in hand, and perhaps discuss the antiquity of definitions of these words.

Because I'm looking at the definitions of both online, and I'm not at all impressed with those:

ie:
emasculate

–verb (used with object) 1. to castrate. 2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken.
–adjective 3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate.

Origin:
1600–10; < L ēmasculātus (ptp. of ēmasculāre), equiv. to ē- e- + māscul(us) male + -ātus -ate 1

Related forms:
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tion, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tive, adjective
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tor, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅to⋅ry /ɪˈmæskyələˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-mas-kyuh-luh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA , adjective

ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate

–adjective 1. (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy. 2. characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury.
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 3. to make or become effeminate.

Origin:
1350–1400; ME < L effēminātus, equiv. to ef- ef- + fēmin(a) woman + -ātus -ate 1

Related forms:
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ly, adverb
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ness, noun
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅na⋅tion, noun

----------------------

It might be beneficial to start a thread to discuss these terms and how it affects *ALL* of us, and/or how that affects different genders on the spectrum.

As for burping... The best burper in *my* world? is that of my sister in law (who presents as femme or has in the past) who can burp out the ENTIRE alphabet. As far as I'm concerned she wins in that gas department.

*waving to all butch buddies*

oh.. and this is a special hello to Metropolis... you didn't know this, but when I post status quips on Facebook, all replies are forwarded to my cell phone, and there I was in the grocery store trying to decide on what kind of chips I wanted last night, while you flirted outrageously with Beau... *on my friggen facebook*... interrupting my grocery shopping.

sheesh... where's the love and why does Beau always get it? I wanna

you both for not including me in brokeback mountain moment. Just sayin' if you're gonna flirt while I'm shopping? It better be with me.

Beau · 11-14-2009, 04:53 PM

and now for something completely different

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI"]YouTube- Monty Python "How Not To Be Seen"[/ame]

from one who at least wants to be seen here,
Beau

Random · 11-14-2009, 04:54 PM

Heys beau...

So.. I have a question that has been burning on the tip of my fingers for YEARS.. but now feel that I can ask this question..

So.. what of the butch who is a living breathing sterotype of what a sterotype of a butch is? You speak for yourself as a non burping femail id butch who has no concerns regarding your masculinity.. Can't a male ID burping, concerned about being demascunlized butch speak up as well?

You get to talk for you.. He gets to talk for him...

I have someone who I call my brother.. He is the stero type of a hard working blue collar masculine ID butch.. When he and his girl get into a fight, she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him... It might not hurt you for someone to call you by your birth name.. But for someone you love and trust to knowingly go for your soft spot.. It's not a lovely thing..

The lovely thing about the world is.. People come in all kinds of flavor.. all different types... Not one way is the right way to be...

Male ID Butchs... they are not just some *stero type* They are living breathing people who have the same right as anyone else to complain, say what makes them smile, what makes them happy, and what makes them cry...

If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being more of the masculine/male ID flavor.. then start one where it's not.... Don't make people feel bad about them selfs because they are different than you...

Huggs.. and much love to the Mrs...

Quote:

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

Thanks for this, Metropolis. As a non-burping, female-identified butch, I have no concerns regarding my masculinity. I'd be thrilled to be acknowledged in the world for the different type of woman I am. And, no, no woman/partner/date has ever attacked me for that. Either I'm lucky, or I just have too much natural T to make that an issue. Regardless, I'm mostly disappointed that the first "butch" thread is already centered on male stereotypes as a marker of what butch is. That's just fucking sad.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Bit · 11-14-2009, 04:57 PM

*reads Chris's post*

*starts laughing*

'scuse me, Diva, can I borrow this?

*pulls Derailer Crown from Diva's head, plops it onto Chris's*

k y'all, carry on!

Jet · 11-14-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

I have someone who I call my brother.. He is the stero type of a hard working blue collar masculine ID butch.. When he and his girl get into a fight, she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him... It might not hurt you for someone to call you by your birth name.. But for someone you love and trust to knowingly go for your soft spot.. It's not a lovely thing..

s...

I get this exactly and it does hurt your pride and heart. It's bad enough to feel like you're in the wrong body always saving face and never feeling like you can just be you without being scrutinized and then to have someone you love and whom you wouldn't hurt demoralize and and completely negate your love, your masculinity and your person as being nothing. I don't care how much anyone says they roll off the comments. It's not that easy, not for me because in that moment in time she shattered my trust in the relationship and in the quality of the person i thought her to be....then negated the person whom I thought she loved as "her man"

Bit · 11-14-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

.. she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him...

I am so sorry to say that I have seen this again and again and again---and not just from Femmes, either--I have seen people of all gender identities in our community do this to each other. It's a very bad habit. There are really no words that adequately describe this kind of deliberately malicious pain-infliction, this silencing, this intention to wipe a person's true being off the face of the earth simply because one doesn't like what they said or did.

You would think that any of us who are concerned about being invisible would be grown-up enough to control ourselves even in anger, grown-up enough to restrain ourselves from this kind of utter disrespect. Invalidating another person's identity, making them invisible simply because we are angry, says nothing about them--but a whole world about us.

I just don't understand why people don't get that.

Beau · 11-14-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

Heys beau...

So.. what of the butch who is a living breathing sterotype of what a sterotype of a butch is? You speak for yourself as a non burping femail id butch who has no concerns regarding your masculinity.. Can't a male ID burping, concerned about being demascunlized butch speak up as well?

No delineation was made as to butch IDs. Everyone can speak up everywhere. I did not say otherwise.

You get to talk for you.. He gets to talk for him...

Obviously. I spoke only for myself.

I have someone who I call my brother.. He is the stero type of a hard working blue collar masculine ID butch.. When he and his girl get into a fight, she does the *call him by his birth name* to hurt and make him feel bad about himself.. that who he is in his head, is not who he is in body or on paper... it matter to him.. it hurts him... It might not hurt you for someone to call you by your birth name.. But for someone you love and trust to knowingly go for your soft spot.. It's not a lovely thing..

I imagine that would hurt very much, yes. I'm sorry for anyone's personal pain.

The lovely thing about the world is.. People come in all kinds of flavor.. all different types... Not one way is the right way to be...

No, there is not one way to be, which is why a stereotype employed to describe all is a problem. Hence, that is my dislike for a characterization of all butches that doesn't fit me.

Male ID Butchs... they are not just some *stero type* They are living breathing people who have the same right as anyone else to complain, say what makes them smile, what makes them happy, and what makes them cry...

If you read my words, you'll see I didn't characterize any IDs as a stereotype, only the behavior specified.

If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being more of the masculine/male ID flavor.. then start one where it's not.... Don't make people feel bad about them selfs because they are different than you...

Again, you misread my words. I was sad that stereotypical male markers were employed in an attempt to define what butch is for all, which is impossible and unfair. I still believe that to be true. I wasn't trying to make anyone feel badly about themselves, nor do I believe that's even within my power to do.

I have no desire to begin any thread that would seek to divide butches into categories, which actually speaks to my original point.

Huggs.. and much love to the Mrs...

respectfully,
Beau

Jett · 11-14-2009, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PapaC

I used to do this years ago when I was more into forum participation but this is a new site, so I'd like to suggest something if I may:

maybe there should be a discussion on the definitions of words like:

"emasculate" and "effeminate" as they appear to go hand in hand, and perhaps discuss the antiquity of definitions of these words.

Because I'm looking at the definitions of both online, and I'm not at all impressed with those:

ie:
emasculate

–verb (used with object) 1. to castrate. 2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken.
–adjective 3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate.

Origin:
1600–10; < L ēmasculātus (ptp. of ēmasculāre), equiv. to ē- e- + māscul(us) male + -ātus -ate 1

Related forms:
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tion, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tive, adjective
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tor, noun
e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅to⋅ry /ɪˈmæskyələˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-mas-kyuh-luh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA , adjective

ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate

–adjective 1. (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy. 2. characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury.
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 3. to make or become effeminate.

Origin:
1350–1400; ME < L effēminātus, equiv. to ef- ef- + fēmin(a) woman + -ātus -ate 1

Related forms:
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ly, adverb
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ness, noun
ef⋅fem⋅i⋅na⋅tion, noun

----------------------

It might be beneficial to start a thread to discuss these terms and how it affects *ALL* of us, and/or how that affects different genders on the spectrum.

As for burping... The best burper in *my* world? is that of my sister in law (who presents as femme or has in the past) who can burp out the ENTIRE alphabet. As far as I'm concerned she wins in that gas department.

*waving to all butch buddies*

oh.. and this is a special hello to Metropolis... you didn't know this, but when I post status quips on Facebook, all replies are forwarded to my cell phone, and there I was in the grocery store trying to decide on what kind of chips I wanted last night, while you flirted outrageously with Beau... *on my friggen facebook*... interrupting my grocery shopping.

sheesh... where's the love and why does Beau always get it? I wanna

you both for not including me in brokeback mountain moment. Just sayin' if you're gonna flirt while I'm shopping? It better be with me.

Oh you're such a wallflower... you should have spoke up...

Kast · 11-15-2009, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

The pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed. Is there anything more hurtful short of a breakup? *Opening a brewski waiting to see thoughts on this*

Jet - I think part of what it is ... is human psychology. During our courtship our women learn what it is that drives us, inspires us, what are pleasures are, our intimate thoughts, our favorite movies, music, food to eat... and so forth. When it come to the nastiness of a bad argument or break-up, some of them start pushing buttons, they find the thing that insults, shocks, tears us down, etc. the most - and go for the jugular vein...

Rook · 11-15-2009, 04:33 AM

=unabashedly Burps...Loud, when in company of Close-knit family/friends only...highly amusing...=

*Sneezes hard...covered mouth of course, if the loudness annoys, tough, I cant control that any more than u can control an open mouth Yawn when exhausted..=

= Passes Gas...Yup...I do make sure when appropriate, to TRY and leave the "busy" area...If I hold, I get the stomach cramps, not u..=

Only my immediate relatives are allowed to freely use my Birth name....
Anyone else will get a home-brewed Glare and Correction to use my Legal name...if it persists, I am not responsible for my smart-ass'd cynical/asshole redhead temper.....

= TransMasculine identified stone Butch, Loving this thread=

Jess · 11-15-2009, 07:13 AM

Personally, I think part of the "things only a butch would understand" is that knowing how to be "handy" and fix things, use tools, learn which tools to buy and which will make your life/ task easier... Does not come at birth!

Generally speaking, most of the butches/ women I know had at least one brother to whom their Dad's "taught" helpful junk to. Fixing cars/ toilets, etc. and as adults, we learned to hate that because we became reliant upon the service industry to do even the simplest repairs/ maintenance tasks.

What this butch understands is that even though my Dad didn't teach me and I spent years waiting and paying for repairs was that I could learn and it was actually pretty cool to do so. Some projects are fraught with frustration "while" I learn, but the end result of being able to do something "handy" for myself kicks ass! Burp! HOO RAH! ~scuse me~

The flip side of this process of tool discovery is the new category of superhero it places me into. I don't think of most butches I know as stereotypical anything. They are doctors, lawyers, chefs, teachers, mechanics, accountants who can or cannot burp , fart, or do floral arrangements with an uncanny grace that is neither masculine or feminine , it is moreover a reflection of confidence and care for the task at hand.

What I do feel pretty certain that all butches might understand is our own need to be exactly whom we are with all of the differences ( often from one another) that that may mean. I identify very strongly with my more masculine traits, however being born in this body and being seen and raised as a "girl" created a strong sense of seeking my own truths. It is just a guess on my part that many ( if not most) butches feel a very deep sense or need ( maybe urgency) to ID ourselves rather than have "any" stereotypes.

I do have an inner "pig" who loves to commandeer the remote, guzzle a brew, and make passionate armchair commentary while watching Hells' Kitchen. ( How many thought I was gonna say football? heh.. gotcha!) I also have a deep desire to make my girls home her sanctuary filling each back breaking chore with love.

I am very interested to see how conversations like this will go in this new space. I sincerely try not to be a shit stirrer and try to see things as an opportunity for me to perhaps expand the way I see the world and myself.

Thanks for some early morning brain candy.. to everyone who has shared!

I do have a things only butches would understand situation that I may get brave enough ( or stupid enough ) to share.. but I will give it a bit to see if this is the right place to do it... LOL!

Again, Thanks a heap folks!
Jess

Tommi · 11-15-2009, 07:55 AM

God Morning Jess, nice post.. I am on my way to Sears this am for some more Craftsman Love. My girl loves tools, but willingly and lovingly lets me do the fun stuff, cuz my she likes that suspender snapping peacock strutting way it makes us feel to do things.(take literally)

Wow..I am away for 24 hours and ...the butch world comes out form the shadows and starts burping..

My Mama woulda decked me had I done either, but that's beside the point. But my uncle's were allowed to have conteststs..anyway.

Haven't read all the posts, and won't ....but, here is what came to my mind when I saw the title on the front page this morning.

Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.

Only a Butch would understand that glance she gives us in the mirror when she sees us smiling as she applies her lipstick.

Only a butch would understand, another butch

Jett · 11-15-2009, 09:23 AM

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (of all ID's) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

P.S good post Jess, Tommi

Mister Bent · 11-15-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes.

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Lastly, sure some butches (male and female ID) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?)

We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly.

Metro

Great post Metro, and this is really where I am with the whole issue, as well. The stereotypes are out there, I think they're fairly well documented and don't need reiteration here. I admire how you respectfully addressed that - because being dismissive isn't a one way street and is a poor way to start off a thread that's supposed to be for us.

I am in complete agreement with, "Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention."

In my opinion, one (and only one) of the essential elements of butch is masculinity - female masculinity, masculine women, male identified trans-masculine - however we choose to further define it. Masculinity does not belong solely to cis-gendered men, transmen, stone butches - it belongs to all of us. THAT, in my mind, is our bonding element.

When I saw the title of this thread, I didn't think about passing gas, tools, football or any of those things - because none of these is unique to the butch experience. Plenty of femmes or other - ID'ed folks are adept with their hands, love beer and can change their oil (though I admit I wish I could rebuild an engine). What I hope to see here are those stories of the common formative experiences and the day to day trials.

BullDog · 11-15-2009, 10:09 AM

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

Random · 11-15-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor"

Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention.

Metropolis,

I'm sorry..

Sometime, what is in my head doesn't come out right... I was using the / as a *and*

Masculine/male = Those that have/feel masculine energy/id, but do not identify with male and those who have masculine energy and also feel male Identity..

Jet · 11-15-2009, 11:07 AM

I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

BullDog · 11-15-2009, 11:20 AM

Thanks for your post Jet. I do sincerely wish the best for you as well. I am pondering your post and thinking that understanding is not always a given among butches, but a process that sometimes may take some time- and that's ok.

Jett · 11-15-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

I wish I could post what another butch would understand.
But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least.
Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

It's understandable, being that fresh... we'll be here when you feel like it... I'm sure there's more than a few of us who've been through similar.

In the mean time hope you stick around and just enjoy the discussions, comradery and general what-not.

Peace to you too

Metro

(Ms Cyn... no apoligies needed, and thx for your clarification)

Jett · 11-15-2009, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommi

God Morning Jess, nice post.. I am on my way to Sears this am for some more Craftsman Love. My girl loves tools, but willingly and lovingly lets me do the fun stuff, cuz my she likes that suspender snapping peacock strutting way it makes us feel to do things.(take literally)

Wow..I am away for 24 hours and ...the butch world comes out form the shadows and starts burping..

My Mama woulda decked me had I done either, but that's beside the point. But my uncle's were allowed to have conteststs..anyway.

Haven't read all the posts, and won't ....but, here is what came to my mind when I saw the title on the front page this morning.

Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant.

Only a Butch would understand that glance she gives us in the mirror when she sees us smiling as she applies her lipstick.

Only a butch would understand, another butch

LOL... she always tilts her head at me, holds out the lipstick and smirking says ... "want some?"

11-14-2009, 04:51 PM	#21
PapaC Member How Do You Identify?: FTM-Queer Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: west coast Posts: 214 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 412 Thanked 486 Times in 111 Posts Rep Power: 1281636	*Language* I used to do this years ago when I was more into forum participation but this is a new site, so I'd like to suggest something if I may: maybe there should be a discussion on the definitions of words like: "emasculate" and "effeminate" as they appear to go hand in hand, and perhaps discuss the antiquity of definitions of these words. Because I'm looking at the definitions of both online, and I'm not at all impressed with those: ie: emasculate –verb (used with object) 1. to castrate. 2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken. –adjective 3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate. Origin: 1600–10; < L ēmasculātus (ptp. of ēmasculāre), equiv. to ē- e- + māscul(us) male + -ātus -ate 1 Related forms: e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tion, noun e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tive, adjective e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅tor, noun e⋅mas⋅cu⋅la⋅to⋅ry /ɪˈmæskyələˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [i-mas-kyuh-luh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA , adjective ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate –adjective 1. (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy. 2. characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury. –verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 3. to make or become effeminate. Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L effēminātus, equiv. to ef- ef- + fēmin(a) woman + -ātus -ate 1 Related forms: ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ly, adverb ef⋅fem⋅i⋅nate⋅ness, noun ef⋅fem⋅i⋅na⋅tion, noun ---------------------- It might be beneficial to start a thread to discuss these terms and how it affects ALL of us, and/or how that affects different genders on the spectrum. As for burping... The best burper in my world? is that of my sister in law (who presents as femme or has in the past) who can burp out the ENTIRE alphabet. As far as I'm concerned she wins in that gas department. waving to all butch buddies oh.. and this is a special hello to Metropolis... you didn't know this, but when I post status quips on Facebook, all replies are forwarded to my cell phone, and there I was in the grocery store trying to decide on what kind of chips I wanted last night, while you flirted outrageously with Beau... on my friggen facebook... interrupting my grocery shopping. sheesh... where's the love and why does Beau always get it? I wanna you both for not including me in brokeback mountain moment. Just sayin' if you're gonna flirt while I'm shopping? It better be with me. Last edited by PapaC; 11-14-2009 at 04:53 PM. Reason: typos!

11-14-2009, 04:53 PM	#22
Beau Timed Out How Do You Identify?: . Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: . Posts: 178 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 71 Thanked 339 Times in 87 Posts Rep Power: 0	what I think all would understand and now for something completely different [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI"]YouTube- Monty Python "How Not To Be Seen"[/ame] from one who at least wants to be seen here, Beau

11-15-2009, 04:33 AM	#30
Rook Senior Member How Do You Identify?: A.G - Stone Butch - GenderFuck Preferred Pronoun?: Hym, Hyz...or, just b respectable, it's not that hard.. Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Columbus Posts: 2,280 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,227 Thanked 3,183 Times in 1,287 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	=unabashedly Burps...Loud, when in company of Close-knit family/friends only...highly amusing...= *Sneezes hard...covered mouth of course, if the loudness annoys, tough, I cant control that any more than u can control an open mouth Yawn when exhausted..= = Passes Gas...Yup...I do make sure when appropriate, to TRY and leave the "busy" area...If I hold, I get the stomach cramps, not u..= Only my immediate relatives are allowed to freely use my Birth name.... Anyone else will get a home-brewed Glare and Correction to use my Legal name...if it persists, I am not responsible for my smart-ass'd cynical/asshole redhead temper..... = TransMasculine identified stone Butch, Loving this thread= __________________

11-15-2009, 07:55 AM	#32
Tommi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Usually "Hello" Relationship Status: Married and Bound to Tommi's kaijira (Ts_kaijira ) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Suthun.... California that is. Across the ridge from Laguna Beach. Posts: 8,151 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,621 Thanked 21,337 Times in 5,968 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	Welcome * God Morning Jess, nice post.. I am on my way to Sears this am for some more Craftsman Love. My girl loves tools, but willingly and lovingly lets me do the fun stuff, cuz my she likes that suspender snapping peacock strutting way it makes us feel to do things.(take literally) Wow..I am away for 24 hours and ...the butch world comes out form the shadows and starts burping.. My Mama woulda decked me had I done either, but that's beside the point. But my uncle's were allowed to have conteststs..anyway. Haven't read all the posts, and won't ....but, here is what came to my mind when I saw the title on the front page this morning. Only a Butch would understand, that nod we have for each other as we pass each other on the street, or in a restaurant. Only a Butch would understand that glance she gives us in the mirror when she sees us smiling as she applies her lipstick. Only a butch would understand, another butch

11-15-2009, 09:23 AM	#33
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I think as butches... we all understand is what it's like to be stereotyped. We all run into people who EXPECT us to do, understand, know A B and C just because we are butch... and although I can rebuild an engine, build a cabin from the ground up and have ridden motorcycles since I was 7 yrs. old etc etc etc... I don't watch football religiously, drink Grain Belt or burp publicly etc and I don't care for stereotypes. Respectfully, the thing with this, the problem is with the stereotyping of butches (burping etc) and for me the (intentional or not) characterization of ID's (asking male ID'd butches specifically, what it like to be emasculated as if the female ID'd couldn't know how it feels to have a person attempt that) and in even as subtly as in Ms Cyn's post with "If you are sad about the first thread being started by butches being MORE of the MASCULINE/male ID flavor" Masculine slash male ID? Masculinity or butchness is not measured by how we individually choose to verbally ID ourselves, not to mention masculinity has many different faces (many of which are not male) and interpretations. I think it's extremely important in bridging the gaps between differently ID butches to understand this and not just haphazardly create these points of contention. Lastly, sure some butches (of all ID's) are loud public burpers (again I am not), so are some grade school kids and nursing home residents... just what's the point of putting it in the opening post of a generalized butch thread (stereotype much?) We do have so much in common experience as butches to (Bathroom story's anyone? Sir'd? Ma'am'd? Smamed?) I think if we just thought deeper and didn't immediately separate and stereotype things would go more smoothly. Metro P.S good post Jess, Tommi __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus Last edited by Jett; 11-15-2009 at 09:41 AM.

11-14-2009, 04:57 PM	#24
Bit Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Stonefemme Relationship Status: married to Gryph Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 2,177 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,126 Thanked 3,772 Times in 1,264 Posts Rep Power: 10778869	reads Chris's post starts laughing 'scuse me, Diva, can I borrow this? pulls Derailer Crown from Diva's head, plops it onto Chris's k y'all, carry on!

11-15-2009, 07:13 AM	#31
Jess Timed Out - Permanent How Do You Identify?: decidedly indifferent Preferred Pronoun?: other Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Patrick Springs, VA Posts: 2,812 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,247 Thanked 5,703 Times in 1,684 Posts Rep Power: 0	Personally, I think part of the "things only a butch would understand" is that knowing how to be "handy" and fix things, use tools, learn which tools to buy and which will make your life/ task easier... Does not come at birth! Generally speaking, most of the butches/ women I know had at least one brother to whom their Dad's "taught" helpful junk to. Fixing cars/ toilets, etc. and as adults, we learned to hate that because we became reliant upon the service industry to do even the simplest repairs/ maintenance tasks. What this butch understands is that even though my Dad didn't teach me and I spent years waiting and paying for repairs was that I could learn and it was actually pretty cool to do so. Some projects are fraught with frustration "while" I learn, but the end result of being able to do something "handy" for myself kicks ass! Burp! HOO RAH! ~scuse me~ The flip side of this process of tool discovery is the new category of superhero it places me into. I don't think of most butches I know as stereotypical anything. They are doctors, lawyers, chefs, teachers, mechanics, accountants who can or cannot burp , fart, or do floral arrangements with an uncanny grace that is neither masculine or feminine , it is moreover a reflection of confidence and care for the task at hand. What I do feel pretty certain that all butches might understand is our own need to be exactly whom we are with all of the differences ( often from one another) that that may mean. I identify very strongly with my more masculine traits, however being born in this body and being seen and raised as a "girl" created a strong sense of seeking my own truths. It is just a guess on my part that many ( if not most) butches feel a very deep sense or need ( maybe urgency) to ID ourselves rather than have "any" stereotypes. I do have an inner "pig" who loves to commandeer the remote, guzzle a brew, and make passionate armchair commentary while watching Hells' Kitchen. ( How many thought I was gonna say football? heh.. gotcha!) I also have a deep desire to make my girls home her sanctuary filling each back breaking chore with love. I am very interested to see how conversations like this will go in this new space. I sincerely try not to be a shit stirrer and try to see things as an opportunity for me to perhaps expand the way I see the world and myself. Thanks for some early morning brain candy.. to everyone who has shared! I do have a things only butches would understand situation that I may get brave enough ( or stupid enough ) to share.. but I will give it a bit to see if this is the right place to do it... LOL! Again, Thanks a heap folks! Jess

11-15-2009, 10:09 AM	#35
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,781 Times in 4,469 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well. I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

11-15-2009, 11:07 AM	#37
Jet Timed Out - TOS Drama How Do You Identify?: .. Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: .. Posts: 3,471 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 292 Thanked 2,646 Times in 1,293 Posts Rep Power: 0	I wish I could post what another butch would understand. But I can't, I'm coming out of a 17-year storm and life is precarious to say the least. Good luck to everyone here. I hope you guys have peace and happiness.

11-15-2009, 11:20 AM	#38
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,781 Times in 4,469 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Thanks for your post Jet. I do sincerely wish the best for you as well. I am pondering your post and thinking that understanding is not always a given among butches, but a process that sometimes may take some time- and that's ok.