only another butch would understand

[Jet]

The video is interesting, thanks for posting.

[Darth Denkay]

Knew I was butch (adjective) since pretty much forever.
Knew I was a butch (noun) when I first learned about the B-F community sometime in the late 90s.

Originally Posted by Tommi

So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?[/B][/COLOR]

[BullDog]

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

[Darth Denkay]

Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...

We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...

We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.

I think on some level, maybe it is erasing. When I first recognized and embraced my masculinity and found a place welcoming me to do so, it was one of those lightbulb kind of moments. I ran headlong toward the "freedom" of being addressed as "hy" or "he". The longer I am around the b-f community however, the less I am likely to care which pronoun is used.

[Cyclopea]

Is there some way to tell who gave this thread a one star rating? Or is the rating system anonymous. Why would someone do that?

[Jett]

Cyclopea, I believe the thread rating system is anonymous... and apparently someone simply doesn't like the thread. I'm sure after it's gets rated by a few more peeps it will even it self out.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Is there some way to tell who gave this thread a one star rating? Or is the rating system anonymous. Why would someone do that?

Yikes, it might have been me by mistake. I saw your post and looking at the little stars it says I rated the thread. I have never tried to rate a thread in my life. Sorry if it was me- I give the thread 10 stars! A couple times on another forum I almost reported someone when I was trying to Rep, lol.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yikes, it might have been me by mistake. I saw your post and looking at the little stars it says I rated the thread. I have never tried to rate a thread in my life. Sorry if it was me- I give the thread 10 stars! A couple times on another forum I almost reported someone when I was trying to Rep, lol.

It says I rated it too which is odd, coz I only now found out how in reading Bulldog's post then looking for the little stars ... I agree, it's a good thread!

[Jett]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...

We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.

Hey WicketWarrick, I didn't miss your question but have been pondering.


I'll probably post some thoughts on it later... but my mouse died today and using this touch pad to edit my posts/move curser etc. is driving me nuts.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yikes, it might have been me by mistake. I saw your post and looking at the little stars it says I rated the thread. I have never tried to rate a thread in my life. Sorry if it was me- I give the thread 10 stars! A couple times on another forum I almost reported someone when I was trying to Rep, lol.

Ha... no... I don't think it was you, I think there's a glitch in the rating system.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SyrJess

It says I rated it too which is odd, coz I only now found out how in reading Bulldog's post then looking for the little stars ... I agree, it's a good thread!

LOL Jess, I hope this isn't a downward spiral.

Metro must be right. It's not like I would ever make a bonehead mistake or anything, ha ha.

[BullDog]

Wicket I would prefer not to be referred to as bro. To me that is male language, and I don't want myself or all butches to be referred to with male default language. For those who prefer male pronouns I of course refer to them that way. I know I have seen in other places where other butches have said they preferred not to be called bro as well, but it wasn't on this forum. Thanks for asking.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

Bully, I am on my home desk top right now and this computer is about to hit the recycle bin. I could not run the video on this relic. I tried. Hence, I am going to use your above post to comment on "unexamined masculinity." The portions I agree with are in blue. The underlined portions is where I disagree or need further clarification.

"Having male identified people in it changes things." Are you talking about male privilege? Just to throw in another wrench to all of this; what if you pass as male consistently but are female identified butch? In my mind this could also be a potential example of perception that provides for male privilege.

Honestly, when I started to take T 18 months ago, something inside of my conciousness shifted. I became much more cognizant of the fact that I was going to be treated with more respect by many because of their perception. Frankly it took me many years to make the decision to take T. For me, I did not think taking T would make myself that much different from when I identified as simply a Butch. But as I move further into my transition I am looking much more closely at masculinity and what does that mean in the macro and micro.

I have hopes of being a hybrid model of a masculine entity that is the combination of all aspects of who I am. A Butch/Transman, socialized as a woman now presenting as masculine, "male."

The examination of masculinity now even more so will beongoing. I am treading new territory and have no intention of abandoning the Butch-Femme Queer community.

I realize my post is scattered. I'm tired but I think you have brought up a very important and timely topic for discussion.

[BullDog]

Greyson thank you for your post. I am not quite sure where you disagree with me, but we can always further discuss. Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities. Female/women identified butches have to fight like hell to be seen or heard, male defaults get used for butch- all of which is ridiculous since most butches do identify as female. The reason we have to fight like hell is because butch gets equated to male and male is more valued.

As another example- gay men are masculine as well- some more than others. Whenever I have been in mixed settings lesbian/gay men the power dynamic is completely different than with just a lesbian setting. It is still a queer setting, but men tend to take over and take up a disproportionate amount of space.

You say you expect to be treated better now that you take T- to me that is a privilege. The fact that you recognize that the examination of masculinity as a Butch/Transman is ongoing and you find the discussion important to me means you are willing to take responsibility and work for change, and I appreciate that very much.

[Cyclopea]

Thank you for your answers. I was dumbfounded as to why the only negatively rated thread was the butch bonding thread.
As to the questions others have asked: I became conscious of being butch when others kept telling me I was. Often prefaced by the word "too".
And the pronouns- No I do not like being called bro or male pronouns. Out in the world I just assume the person is not paying very close attention. Unless it's a 'phobe saying it, in which case they are implying I am less than a real woman. If it is online from a stranger I just assume they are sexist and misogynist and that they elevate maleness over femaleness. Of course for those who prefer male pronouns for themselves I respect that preference completely. In that instance the person is only being themselves and I respect the bros that do. But I am not a bro.
Aso, I do burp on occasion but I try not to .

[Jett]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Realizing that this is a question of personal preference...

We know that within our butch ranks we have female-identified, male-identified, other-identified; those who prefer male pronouns, those who prefer female pronouns, and those who couldn't care less. One word I use frequently with butches is 'bro'. I'm assuming that male-identified would be fine with this, but does this term feel erasing to some? I'd love to hear your collective thoughts on this.

Through the years I've referred to many of my butch friends as bro yes, and couldn't count the times it's been used on me.

Is it appropriate being as I'm not male ID(?)... interesting, I dunno, still thinking on it... the friends who have used it for the overwhelmingly know how I ID. Does it feel erasing? No... but I can see where it could. I do think it's definately one of those "ask first" things, just out of respect.

And that's all I got on that right now... good questions though
Metro

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

The statements I bolded in blue sound contradictory to me. Is it just me?

The statements in red seem contradictory to me as well.

Also, what would you deem the "positive aspects of masculinity", as you put it? Conversely, what would you consider the positive aspects of femininity to be? Or the negative for that matter? Also you seem to categorize sexism and violence as masculinity, yet you identify as masculine. How does one go about extracting only the positive 'male' or 'masculine' qualities from 'masculinity'? Are females or feminine people never sexist or violent?

What has always and continues to confound me is why masculine/masculine-identified/transmasculine butches, who are female-identified, seem insistent on attributing certain traits/behaviors (you know, the ones we can all be proud of - independence, capability, strength, resourcefulness/handiness, farting prowess, etc) to males/masculinity to begin with. And then I'm told I "can't just be here to get fluffed up and told how manly I am." Well, to that I say, don't fluff me up and tell me how manly I am. ha.

And then the same butch (not picking on you bulldog but since you did it this time... will go on to direct the general 'you' here (which includes me, a male) on how to behave in what I'm hearing you say is (predominantly, if not completely biologically) female space, of which I am unfailingly aware. You said, "You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things." I agree. That's why I don't feel I can have it both ways. But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.

I personally never hear anyone other than female-identified butches talking about this continuum of masculinity that seems to exist somewhere. Creating and perpetuating this type of hierarchy is sexist and misogynist, when anyone does it. I find it especially betraying when females do it to other females, butch and femme alike, especially to women of trans experience who are femme or are female-identified butches and were socialized to be someone's/society's idea of what is 'male' or 'masculine' and are trying to find acceptance and safety in a b-f space as females.

Let me pose a question to the general you - if you're female-identified and you gender behaviors and personality traits, why don't you attribute your best to your female socialization and your female traits/hormones that are inherent within you? (And I'm not talking just compassion and nurturing and those stereotypically female traits here - strength, power, determination, bravery, assertiveness, resourcefulness - you don't think you developed these qualities by living in a female body? And I've not transitioned so I'm not speaking from a place of male privilege here because I do not receive it. I'm speaking as someone who has experienced oppression and discrimination and sexism and misogyny in a female body just like everyone else here at one time or another. In my own sexist mind my best qualities are because of female hormones and socialization. I know these communities are microcosms of a larger society but why bring the larger society's norms into your queer space and perpetuate them? If you can't change patterns of thinking within your little corner of queer space then you're not likely to change the world outside of that space.

[Tommi]

"only another butch would understand", Hmmmm.. looking at title.

Hmmm..looking at posts..Looking up understand..Google Butch, and see what the world "understands" about us..Hmmm
Butch and femme

""Quote: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Butch (disambiguation).

Butch and femme are LGBT terms describing respectively, masculine and feminine traits, behaviour, style, expression, self-perception and so on. They are often used in the lesbian, bisexual and gay subcultures. A similar term, femme is also frequently used in the crossdressing community. Sometimes butch is used synonymously with dyke.

Happy Hump Day to those Butches that understand.

Butch and femme are sometimes used to represent two sides of a relationship, as in yin and yang, although some people prefer butch-butch and femme-femme relationships."""end quote

I Know What Butch Is.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ"]YouTube- I Know What Butch Is[/ame]

[Jess]

LMAO Tommi, ty ever so much! I haven't read this yet and it will be on my" list of books this butch will actually read," unless I can find it on audio book in which case I will listen to it while driving to meet my femme for a date that I will pay for unless she wants to or I will wait for the movie which I will take her to and open the door for her and buy her popcorn unless of course she decides that we should see it at at LGBT pvt viewing at the community center, which we of course do not have because we live in the southside of hillbilly hell.

I will definitely be buying this because it reminds me so much of how the heated threads on line regarding "defining and labeling" so often go.

Needed a good chuckle this morning, thank you Tommi