"Stud" versus "Butch"

[DapperButch]

As I understand the term:

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Sometimes, though, "appropriating" is a way of subverting power dynamics in a cultural or social construct. Members of our community appropriate male pronouns. Gays and lesbians appropriate straight marriage rituals. And so on.

Sometimes appropriation is kind of thrilling.

The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.

Originally Posted by Daktari

Appropriation = using a name/label/title/id/term without "paying the price for the goodies"?

If I read this correctly then I suggest anyone under, say 50, possibly 60yrs old, shouldn't 'appropriate' queer, dyke, butch, femme, et alia, because they didn't pay the price alongside our older brothers and sisters fighting for visibility, the right not to have to hide who they/we were/are and a measure of equality way back in the day?

...or maybe I'm just being dense today?

This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

--------------

To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

[*Anya*]

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

As I understand the term:



The difference is that you are using the term/behaviours of a group that has more power than you do. That is why this would not be defined as appropriation.



This wouldn't be appropriation because it is the same group.

--------------

To me, this is yet another example of white privilege.

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When someone who is not in the culture and uses that cultures labels, definitions, genders, traditions, etc etc it IS appropriation.

Sometimes I want to look at white folk and ask:

Really? you also want macha, stud, Pappi? Really?

Cause you don't own enough already?


Thanks Dapper for saying something.

I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

[Metro]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I completely agree with you and

I feel like a younger generation of queers (regardless of race) adopting an ID like 'Stud' has less of an icky appropriation feeling than if they were to co-opt 'Macha', 'Pappi' or 'Aggressive' because while 'Stud' has historically been used by queer POC it feels less connected to a single group or culture. 'Aggressive', 'Macha' and 'Pappi' would feel like really icky appropriation to me, because those IDs feel very specific and very closely tied to culture, to me.

'Stud' (noun) and stud (adjective) crosses a few cultures and common uses. It's not uncommon, for example, for it to be used as a descriptor for many different male sub-groups. Just like 'Butch' is commonly used as both an identity and a descriptor in gay-male and heterosexual male communities.

But, I do come from a place of white privilege and I recognize my feelings on this could be an example of that privilege, I'm completely open to hearing if people feel differently.

When newly out in the lgbtqi community I did not know or understand the cultural ties to the ID of "Stud" -- because, like Sparkle, I came from a place of white privilege. I knew it only as a descriptor of male sub-groups. Now I know differently... and also agree with Sparkle that being open to hearing other perspectives and feelings is a good thing. Diversity is one of the aspects of living in a large metropolitan area that I absolutely LOVE -- because these different perspectives enrich one and all.

[Daywalker]

I was born and raised in the Oakland Bay Area.

I feel this was geographically to my advantage as far as
exposure to a more diverse world. That does not
change the privilege factors attached to being
White but it sure as hell changed the
way I see things as a result.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang.



ETA Yup, I have to own my clueless white privilege (never heard of such a thing until I joined up here; That's why I read some of the more educative threads here.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Daktari

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang.

I knew self-identified Studs and Aggressives when I lived and worked in east and sarf London. Which is not to say there aren't self-identified S/As all over the UK - because I am sure there are. The areas of London I lived, worked and socialized were very culturally diverse and quite queer, and that is probably why it is more familiar to me. As a sweeping generalization, I would say, the majority of people who ID'd as Stud or Aggressive were POC, young-ish (40 and under) & inner-city/urban oriented queers.

But as to your supposition that it is only used by an exclusive minority...hmmmm...I think I would extend that thought and say that I found that gender-related IDs were used by a minority of queers that I knew in the UK, when I lived there. (8years ago now and lots has changed for sure, especially in relation to genderqueer identities.)

I didn't know a lot of queers who claimed Butch/Femme IDs either. There seemed to be an eschewing of "labels" regardless of individuals' gender presentation or desires/personal attractions. I knew a lot of queers who fell soundly to the masculine or feminine side of the gender spectrum but not a whole lot who embraced Butch (as a noun) or Femme (as a noun) IDs.

Perhaps that is why Stud/Aggressive seems a small sub-group to you?

I think there in lies another interesting cultural difference between the US and the UK.

Or perhaps that is where the queer culture in US is moving too, but I'm have a myopic view because of my ID and the places I socialize/find community.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.

I saw it at the Film Forum on 13th Street in the West Village, back when it came out.

I was struck by how much the women were struggling economically, and how they talked about getting their GED.

Later I started a free GED class at the LGBT center in NYC and I think there are studies that back up what I saw, that people who are outliers on the culturally defined, gender-expression scale are more likely to struggle with education and poverty.

Also, they are more likely to go into careers that are less typical for their sex, which shows their perseverance and resourcefulness.

At some point in the late nineties, young studs and aggressors and other lesbian and butch/femme women of color began frequenting Henrietta Hudson's, a lesbian bar in the West Village, and its demographic changed dramatically.

I heard a white lesbian complain about the change and express her racist dismay (I got into a huge argument with her...lets just say I didn't fit in well with that particular girlfriend and her crowd, kinda funny as I look back), but to me when I walked past the long line out front of the bar, all I saw were incredibly young, it seemed, butches, studs, and aggressors in little groups dressed for a night out in the clubs, probably hoping to impress girls, like the kids in my classes at that time.

It's not my culture but I am surrounded by many cultures here in NY and somehow in all morphs into something that does feel like my culture, because when I get into a less diverse cultural setting I feel uneasy, like I will be "found out" and not welcome there, though I pass for fitting in at first, which yes, I know, is a privilege I can work to my advantage economically and career wise—and my GED students including the studs didn't have that option.

It is my experience in the gay/queer/trans/b/f and kink cultures over here for many, many years (25+yrs) I have never heard anyone label themselves as you suggest. I do understand that some folks where you lived used it which is why I say it's a small minority because it cannot be extrapolated to include the rest of the country. I know we appear a small country to you lot but there is a lot more regional variation than you probably realise, even within the different countries that make up the UK.

However, It is also my long time experience that self empowering labels are anathema to many within the wider 'gay' 'community' but not so much in the pan sexual kink 'community'. It is this that led me on my own path to individual gender expression.

Maybe it's just me turning into a reet old fart and not knowing the yoof lingo anymore.

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Daktari

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please.

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

Having spent time in some heavily urban areas, particularly Edinburgh, Manchester, Leeds, N'castle and Brum, but not so much Liverpool or Brighton, I can still assure you I've never heard it there. Maybe I just don't come across those folks on my queer troubadour travels. I really hope one day I do.

I bet ya our very own metrosexual, Ciaran, has heard the term used though; like I say, I'm just a provincial 'hick', albeit a rather eccentric one


...and now I really am gonna try to lurk-n-learn

[CountryGirl]

...someone named Studmuffin.

[ruffryder]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

I'd like to add that on occasion the Mrs Day will holler
at me with a 'Hey, Stud...' here n there, but it's
not the same thing as Stud - the Identity term.

I've heard the term first in this context and I've been called "stud" and "stud muffin" in reference to cool or super hero like.


I've also heard butches referred to that term "stud" also and mostly on some lesbian websites.

Interesting about the cultural thing. I do know it's referred to butches. Is it more referred to for male identified butches? Curious to hear more and how others use this term.

[Massive]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

Be that as it may, I have never heard the term used in the North of England, nor in Southern Scotland and I've been living in this area for my entire life ... And I've been an active member of my local gay scene the entire time. Remember, there are other places than London over here! Some of which have just as thriving a scene as there.

[Parker]

I heard the terms several years ago when watching a documentary.
I think it might be the same doc that Anya and Island Scout are talking about, which is, I think, this one:

The Aggressives 1/6 (LGBT Documentary)

"A documentary look at women who prefer to dress and act as men
and who participate in NYC's predominantly African-American lesbian drag balls. (2005)"




If you go to view the youtube video at youtube, you can catch the other 5 parts
- I just checked both Amazon and Netflix and it is not available to stream on either.

[Martina]

God, we sound white. I guess because, for the most part, we are. I guess my white privilege allows me to forget that sometimes.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Massive

Be that as it may, I have never heard the term used in the North of England, nor in Southern Scotland and I've been living in this area for my entire life ... And I've been an active member of my local gay scene the entire time. Remember, there are other places than London over here! Some of which have just as thriving a scene as there.

Hi Massive,

I know there is much more to Great Britain than London, I promise. I had the privilege to experience some of it (though not nearly enough). I lived there for 7 years, I consider myself blessed to have made my home there for a while. There are many really wonderful cities and areas outside of London; and yes, other thriving, vibrant queer scenes beyond London. I agree!

I only mentioned London because Daktari's asked me 'where' my experience of Stud culture was in the UK. I wasn't comparing London to any other city or region in the UK, or placing a value on London's queer scene versus any other.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you or Daktari not having met anyone who IDs as a stud. And I wasn't trying to demean your experience in, or contribution to, your queer communities.

I think it is just an issue of racial diversity. When I lived and socialized in a very racially diverse queer community I knew people who ID'd as Stud/Aggressive. I currently live in a very homogenic community and I don't know anyone who ID's as a Stud here.

Lucky for us we have BFP, we can share our experiences and trade ideas and learn more about one another.




Sorry for the tangent, OP.

[Massive]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Hi Massive,

I know there is much more to Great Britain than London, I promise. I had the privilege to experience some of it (though not nearly enough). I lived there for 7 years, I consider myself blessed to have made my home there for a while. There are many really wonderful cities and areas outside of London; and yes, other thriving, vibrant queer scenes beyond London. I agree!

I only mentioned London because Daktari's asked me 'where' my experience of Stud culture was in the UK. I wasn't comparing London to any other city or region in the UK, or placing a value on London's queer scene versus any other.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you or Daktari not having met anyone who IDs as a stud. And I wasn't trying to demean your experience in, or contribution to, your queer communities.

I think it is just an issue of racial diversity. When I lived and socialized in a very racially diverse queer community I knew people who ID'd as Stud/Aggressive. I currently live in a very homogenic community and I don't know anyone who ID's as a Stud here.

Lucky for us we have BFP, we can share our experiences and trade ideas and learn more about one another.




Sorry for the tangent, OP.

Thank you Sparkle, I didn't mean to come across as so defensive, I'm just used to people making the assumption that I'm from London.

As an aside, the one part of living in rural england is unfortunately, the lack of rural diversity, it makes me cringe when a POC is taking a holiday here and local people stop and stare, it just horrifies me!

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Martina

God, we sound white. I guess because, for the most part, we are. I guess my white privilege allows me to forget that sometimes.

I thought the same thing, but wasn't sure if it was just
my own perspective reading it that way, so thanks for out-louding it.

Folks who feel the need to buck any Identity due to their perspective
having already ruled it a minority term...should take a moment to marinate on why.