Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have to ask just for clarification because I really need it right now..

Was I wrong to assume this was Butch and Transmen space? or was everyone allowed?

Thank you for your time.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have to ask just for clarification because I really need it right now..

Was I wrong to assume this was Butch and Transmen space? or was everyone allowed?

Thank you for your time.

From the OP:

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Linus

From the OP:




[/COLOR][/FONT]

Linus thank you

I am to busy with a soon to be 10 year old to have read it all...

I appreciate the clarification, for now I can post some thoughts.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

If i may......

Just wanted to pop my femme head in here, since AtLast invited everyone (thanks for that)....

I want to just say how wonderful this thread is to read and how happy I am to see it. In my life as a femme, I have wittnessed the sometimes anamosity that can go on. It has always saddened me.

What a wonderful idea, Atlast, to bring the positive, upbeat, informative and "shaking hands" comradery that this has started.

*curtsies to all here and

Thank you for the breath of fresh air and sunlight that leads our community into strength and togetherness and overpowers the negative and bias who's shadows grow larger in the dark.

Yup... everyone is welcome!!! I put it in the general topic area about relationships, etc. and community because I wanted it to really be about friendship struggles, understanding, misunderstanding, how feelings get hurt and how we deal with this, sharing what is common, what is not.... how we all interact in real-time and here... and anyone can add other stuff to the list! I would think femmes have some perspectives to share, too! Maybe MtFs might want to say a few things....

What is kewl is that quite a few members have just come in and posted!

[Sam]

I'm thinking they will let ANYONE in this thread eh?

So many thanks to ya'll this is a great thread. i have been reading along.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yup... everyone is welcome!!! I put it in the general topic area about relationships, etc. and community because I wanted it to really be about friendship struggles, understanding, misunderstanding, how feelings get hurt and how we deal with this, sharing what is common, what is not.... how we all interact in real-time and here... and anyone can add other stuff to the list! I would think femmes have some perspectives to share, too! Maybe MtFs might want to say a few things....

What is kewl is that quite a few members have just come in and posted!

Forgive me here, AtLast, but I just want to make sure...the topic is butch, transmen, and intergendered friendships, though, correct?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Linus thank you

I am to busy with a soon to be 10 year old to have read it all...

I appreciate the clarification, for now I can post some thoughts.

wow 10 already? how time flies

i know wrong thread

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

...Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while - how much difference is there really between IDs. Since this thread is specifically targeting butches and transmen I'll focus there. Of course there are differences, but in many cases I don't think they can be qualified. For instance, many butches here identify as women and others don't. We likely share many experiences growing up and coming to embrace our identity, but how do we really differ? Sure, some of us embrace woman, some don't but also don't embrace man, some embrace male but not man, and others embrace man. We all have an inner sense of what identity feels right to us. But if I am dialoguing with a butch woman, in most cases does that distinction matter? Who am I more similar to, a butch woman or a male-identified butch. I have no idea. But I do believe we share many of the same experiences so in many cases I don't think the distinction is necessary....

I just wanted to highlight this here, Darth, as it is something that I have thought about too. We spend SO much time looking at the differences (or thinking we are), and not focusing on the commonalities between the butch IDs (and for that matter, transmen).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Forgive me here, AtLast, but I just want to make sure...the topic is butch, transmen, and intergendered friendships, though, correct?

*I* think (not saying this for everyone) that another thread should be started on a femme's perspective or affect on these friendships. This way you all have the chance to build some bridges and friendships without more stuff thrown in there.

I hope that made sense.

Oh lookee here I got ballsy and made the damn thread...

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...647#post129647


Mince!!!!

[weatherboi]

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

[Linus]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[weatherboi]

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.

Originally Posted by Linus

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[Corkey]

Personally, I tend to keep to myself, if asked I'll be honest without giving the details. It is after all none of my business. What goes on between two consenting adults is none o' mine.
Pronouns are a given I'll respect yours if you respect mine.
Being an adult and taking responsibility for myself is all I can do.

[Dylan]

You know, when I'm having a conversation in real time...where I make most of my friends...I don't tend to pick apart the supposed underlying meanings of everything/sentence/word they use.

I think VERY often times here, conversations get mired in down in 'semantics wars'

How does this apply to this thread? Linus, I don't think there is anyone here who thinks weatherboi thinks of women as chattel. If for no other reason (besides I've never seen him say anything off color) than Snow would kick his ass.

Honestly, I think these gender wars start over stuff like this, and these things RARELY happen (to me anyways) in real time. Had I heard that sentence in real time, by someone I'm familiar with on the same level as weatherboi, I would probably concentrate on the meat of the entirety of the whole statement than a picking apart of semantics


Just Trying To 'Bond',
Dylan

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by Linus

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

I agree with your first paragraph, Linus. However, I would argue, in the case of the second paragraph, that some femmes feel the same way about other femmes who steal their "guy", their butch, etc. And the same goes for some heteros as well. So, is chattel (you spelled it correctly) then, in your mind, gendered as you state here?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.

But that is your personal view and there is nothing wrong with that. I simply stated my view in relation to what you posted and how it felt personally (this is why I stated it from my point of view and indicated the "personally" parts). I apologize for not being clearer on what I was trying to express.

Part of the support for each other is to recognize the differences as well as the similarities. Our world (and I'm referring to this in a wider general sense) is all about extremes of support or contrary. Society seems more intent on accepting extremes rather than recognizing the middle ground or middle way. Just because I do not agree with your point of view doesn't mean I do not respect you or your understanding.

I went through the "my g/f was stolen by.." point not too long ago (about 4 years now). I look back on it as a learning experience. It was not the butch's fault nor the g/f fault. It was reflective of the time and what was going on. It cost me a potential friendship with both because of my internal view of "ownership" and "how dare he!" thoughts.

To me -- and I'll emphasize that these are MY thoughts, MY views and are only to be view as that of the Linus -- the ethic of "no butch/transman/whatever should steal another's femme/girl/whatever" creates boundary lines and animosity in itself. Rather I would prefer to create deep friendships with those transmen/butches/whatever that would negate their desire to cause distrust.

Will it never happen again? Eh. Who knows? Anything is certainly possible. But for me personally, I find it creates lines where there shouldn't be any.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.
2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

I was just talking with my buddy about this today. We were talking about how we should be looking out for our friends lady not trying to hit on her. Love to know some guys are on the same page.

OB

[Corkey]

I"m kinda out of this as far as dating, um married, but when I did date it wasn't about my friends ex, I just never gave it a thought, cause if it's my friends ex, the ex wouldn't be in my circle of dating prospects. Now I've also had some long term relationships, so none of this has ever been an issue for me.

[weatherboi]

yes!!! i hold this same rule for myself.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?