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Old 12-01-2009, 05:07 PM   #1
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Default Butch/Butch Theory



Alright so here goes:

The first focus I would like to make is the butch/butch dynamic and how appealing it is to me and my personal preference. I do however, understand that I cannot and will not satisfy everyone on this topic but it is definately something that I want to put out here. At times, I wonder to myself being a member of the gay community why certain dynamics are shunned by our own. This will be a pill that is continuously hard to swallow. I understand individuals and their own preferences...But, Im not getting the narrow paths that some people tend to follow.
This isn't mainstream-sometimes we dont fit in-no matter what label/terminology is used. I totally get that. But, why is the hate continuing? (I have my own answers).

What does it mean for a butch to desire another butch? How is butch desire expressed? These are only a few questions that I have been asked recently. And I am willing to explain my theory on this.

Must opposites always attract? I do not think always. I do believe that we can be one in the same on all levels and still have an attraction. Does anyone else feel me on this?

Just to add to this little section of my world and to answer a few more questions I will continue with this:

To many people Im a "usual suspect" because i do not date femmes. Sometimes, it is looked upon as in me secretely hating them. THIS IS NOT the case. But, yet im deemed the ultimate threat. Because the butch/butch dynamic negates the binary oppositions and hence is threatening to most. -sighs-

One answer to the question: Who really agrees with the butch/butch dynamic? One who admits it.

Ok, so in a nutshell here is my butch haircut,stance,personality,preference and anything else you would like to claim as such. YES, I adore the butch/butch relationship dynamic and proudly I will continue to wear it.

Anyone else?
Comments?
Perspectives?


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Old 12-01-2009, 05:43 PM   #2
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Default

I saw this thread posted elsewhere as Butch/Butch Experiment. I think that you need to date or be with the one you are attracted to. For some it is not just one person, for some it is not just femme, for some it is not just butch. People are attracted to a variety of individuals.

Here in Kansas City where I live, I am looked at all kinds of sideways because I am Butch and I love Femmes. My friends don't get why I wouldn't date someone that is androgenous like them. I like Femmes....we have talked about it several times over drinks. I don't think they will ever get it.

I think if I told them I was attracted to other butches, they would understand that more so than me being attracted to femmes.

I think you should live your life the way you want to live it....even if some don't agree with it. God knows a lot of people sure don't agree with the way I live my life and who I am attracted to.

Good luck DBP!
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:45 PM   #3
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Default

Desire is Desire. I don't see anything wrong with Butch/Butch, Femme/Femme, Femme/Bi, Poodle/Schnauzer, etc.

I hope folks will engage on this, I think it there is some (wrongful, in my opinion) shaming that goes on when someone steps outside of the "Norm" but you know...everything "we" do is kind of out of the norm according to most folks.

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Old 12-01-2009, 06:35 PM   #4
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Default

Yes, this is a repost.. I also have this thread posted as Butch/butch experiment on the other site.. Im trying to reach out to as many people as possible...!!! So thanks everyone!
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:55 PM   #5
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Default

Personally, butch/butch is hawt and I've never quite understood why some people are adverse to it.

Then again, I am a "whatever-it-takes, even-if-that-means-licking-your-left-elbow-on-a-blue-moon-odd-month-tuesday".

You have to live your life and find joy in it. If its butch/butch that works for you, I say have at it!

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Old 12-01-2009, 07:23 PM   #6
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Default

I have to agree with everyone who has posted so far.

My town is similar to that G describes. You see Butches with Butches alot.

Snouzepoo?

Avocado Christie, I agree wholeheatedly on all points, though our fetishizing of B/B likely makes us pretty non-PC.

Death, you mention people feeling threatened by Butches who want to date Butches. I think people are naturally inclined to be threatened by something (anything).

I get the allure of dating someone you have tons in common with. I learned in Sociology in college that the more a couple has in common, the more likely it is that they will stay together.

I'm sorry that you feel misunderstood and I totally get that...most regular Lesbians in my town think I am absolutely out on the lunatic fringe somewhere for dressing like I do and liking Butches.

Maybe the power of Butch is what is threatening? I don't know. Interesting thread.
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:38 PM   #7
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalipstic View Post
=

Avocado Christie, I agree wholeheatedly on all points, though our fetishizing of B/B likely makes us pretty non-PC.



I'm sorry that you feel misunderstood and I totally get that...most regular Lesbians in my town think I am absolutely out on the lunatic fringe somewhere for dressing like I do and liking Butches.

Maybe the power of Butch is what is threatening? I don't know. Interesting thread.
HA! You are the first to call me by my pronoun!!!

I know exactly what you mean about being on the lunatic fringe for being a feminine woman and liking butches! I lived there for the first 36 years of my life and I can tell you that meeting you and the TN gang was probably the most BF couples outside of Pride that I have ever seen at one time!

The bright side is that at least you have a community there.

To your question of the power of Butch being threatening, I don't think that's it - I tend to agree with your analysis of being attracted to the familiar.
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:43 PM   #8
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Default Great thread.

I think it's a problem of internalized homophobia. If we aren't fetishizing it (and it is squicking us out) this is likely the reason. Which is curious, because of who we are. Homophobia is so systemic that it would be over-reaching to assume we are exempt from experiencing it.

I have to share here, if I am honest, that the butch/butch dynamic was something I spent real work getting to be okay with (a previous partner was equally enamored of butches as with femmes). This bothered me. I had to think about why. I had to explore it and work it out.

Eventually, my baseline beliefs were able to overthrow my reflexive ones. I want for all of us to experience not just equality around whom we naturally love, but a sense of celebration.

And that's where I am today.
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Old 12-03-2009, 03:17 PM   #9
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Default

Many MANY thanks to you grrls/guys that have shed some light on this bois mad rant I appreciate the support and the real talk here!!! I think its great to be openminded and love who it is we so desire to.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:27 PM   #10
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Default Wondering

Has anyone experienced a butch/butch relationship where there was BF Community social pressure felt by one of you to "become more feminine"... or did others seem to question your butchness for having this preference?
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Old 12-31-2009, 12:23 AM   #11
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Default Interesting

I think this is an interesting topic, so thank you for bringing it up.
I really think love is love, and I have always been curious on this one thought:
This is my own opinion. I wondered if 2 people were stranded on an island with no contact or communication with anyone other than the one they are stuck with and who haveno chance of being rescued then I wondered if those 2 people would fall in love .
I think that in that type of situation where 2 people never thought that the other persons identity was ever attractive all of a sudden find them to be the most attractive person they ever saw.
I have never thought that boi's were attractive at all. I have never been in any kind of relationship with another boi , butch, or andro even bc I'm just not that boi. I believe that love is love and who ever you find attractive and love is amazing ! I would think that the intimacy with 2 butches would be very very intence.
I wondered if since I do not think butches are attractive and would not be with one, if maybe I were to be stuck in a stranded place with no hopes of rescue if I would fall in love with another boi???? I think I would.
I think love is a beautiful thing no matter who one shares it with.
I have had several butches that only desire butches tell me that I am nice looking and etc... I'm flattered by that , just as I am flattered if a femme, or whoever would say it.

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Old 12-31-2009, 12:40 AM   #12
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalipstic View Post
I have to agree with everyone who has posted so far.

My town is similar to that G describes. You see Butches with Butches alot.

Snouzepoo?

Avocado Christie, I agree wholeheatedly on all points, though our fetishizing of B/B likely makes us pretty non-PC.

Death, you mention people feeling threatened by Butches who want to date Butches. I think people are naturally inclined to be threatened by something (anything).

I get the allure of dating someone you have tons in common with. I learned in Sociology in college that the more a couple has in common, the more likely it is that they will stay together.

I'm sorry that you feel misunderstood and I totally get that...most regular Lesbians in my town think I am absolutely out on the lunatic fringe somewhere for dressing like I do and liking Butches.

Maybe the power of Butch is what is threatening? I don't know. Interesting thread.
Two points:

1. I agree with you wholeheartedly that some are threatened by the power of (the) butch. I think it's the dichotomy that gets folks' boxers and panties in big ole bunches over it.

2. Schnoodle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by evolveme View Post
I think it's a problem of internalized homophobia. If we aren't fetishizing it (and it is squicking us out) this is likely the reason. Which is curious, because of who we are. Homophobia is so systemic that it would be over-reaching to assume we are exempt from experiencing it.

I have to share here, if I am honest, that the butch/butch dynamic was something I spent real work getting to be okay with (a previous partner was equally enamored of butches as with femmes). This bothered me. I had to think about why. I had to explore it and work it out.

Eventually, my baseline beliefs were able to overthrow my reflexive ones. I want for all of us to experience not just equality around whom we naturally love, but a sense of celebration.

And that's where I am today.
I had the opposite dynamic that I found I had to work on. For me, I just could not wrap my mind around the Femme/Femme dynamic. In my mind, it was so twisted and tangled with the images shown by straight porn of "lesbians" together that I think I rejected the concept as a whole.

It's my nature to say "whatever floats your boat" so I wasn't completely oppositional to the dynamic....just more along the lines of "why?" Since it's the hotness of the butch that revs my engine, I couldn't grasp why everyone didn't feel the pull towards them as I did. Eventually, I came to my senses and saw what others who do enjoy that dynamic see. I still don't feel it's for me, but my horizon was definitely broadened.
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Old 12-31-2009, 12:18 PM   #13
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Interesting thought.

I can only theorize what would happen if I was stranded with another butch with no hope of ever being rescued or whatever. Assuming we got along and all, I would think that I would grow to love the other butch. Would I fall in love with them - well, I guess I'm not really sure what the difference would be between loving the butch and being in love with the butch. Splitting hairs - maybe. I imagine that we aould be involved in a sexual relationship. We both have needs and in extreme situations we sometimes do what normally would not be our preference. Happens all the time in situations where a bunch of men or women are forced together - in jails for instance.

So yeah, I would probably - hopefully - love the butch. Yeah, we would probably have sex. But again, this is an extreme situation. If the same butch and I were friends in the real world, would those same feelings and behaviors occur. For me, I would think not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RNguy View Post
I think this is an interesting topic, so thank you for bringing it up.
I really think love is love, and I have always been curious on this one thought:
This is my own opinion. I wondered if 2 people were stranded on an island with no contact or communication with anyone other than the one they are stuck with and who haveno chance of being rescued then I wondered if those 2 people would fall in love .
I think that in that type of situation where 2 people never thought that the other persons identity was ever attractive all of a sudden find them to be the most attractive person they ever saw.
I have never thought that boi's were attractive at all. I have never been in any kind of relationship with another boi , butch, or andro even bc I'm just not that boi. I believe that love is love and who ever you find attractive and love is amazing ! I would think that the intimacy with 2 butches would be very very intence.
I wondered if since I do not think butches are attractive and would not be with one, if maybe I were to be stuck in a stranded place with no hopes of rescue if I would fall in love with another boi???? I think I would.
I think love is a beautiful thing no matter who one shares it with.
I have had several butches that only desire butches tell me that I am nice looking and etc... I'm flattered by that , just as I am flattered if a femme, or whoever would say it.

-RNguy
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:10 AM   #14
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hmn, hard to explain.

for a long time my only exposure to dykedom was through amutual friend who was very much part of the seattle butch/butch leather scene, a long time ago. For the longest time is really affected how I percieved being a dyke. I couldn't be one. I wasn't a butch, nor was I that kind of leather. And as far as I knew, at that point, that's was dykes were.

plus when I was in their company, they did nothing but say dismissive and hideous things about femmes. Some of them occationally dated femmes but their attitude was "bit of fluff on the side."

So I grew from 18 - 25, thinking that the only way to be taken seriously was to be masculine and that butch-butch were so into masculinity, and hated femininity so much (probably due to the phase they had to go through of rejection for themselves), that femmes were pretty much loathed.

So I pretty much thought that butch/butch would hate me for my femininity, without even knowing me. But, there is a similarity in butch/butch as there is in gay male men/men communities. Many of them do hate women and want nothing to do with females. Thankfully, a lot of them don't. And the same with butch/butch.

So when I'm introduced to a butch/butch couple when I'm out, the first thing that skidds across my brain is "how quickly are they going to ignore me/dismiss me because I don't matter."

sometimes I'm proved wrong and that makes me happy. I can have good conversation with good people. And I've made some great, fun friendships. But sometimes, unfortunately, I'm right. And instead of friendship I get the bland dismissal look of "oh. femme. *blank*" Usually because they themselves make assumptions about me and about femininity.

I've been privy to conversation about things like "oh do we have to bring a femme along? she's just going to whine, complain about her feet hurting and demand attention..." when one of them says that they are bringing X to an after-party or whatever. Either forgetting I'm there or just being an asshole.

that said, one of the politest, loveliest butches was one that was with another butch and sincerely helped me when everyone else flaked out.

I'm just scared of wierd misogyny. I'm a bit wary about gay men in the same way when I meet them because of the same issue.
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Old 01-13-2010, 09:34 AM   #15
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Having worked so hard and waited so long to pursue the type of individual I would truly desire, I can't begin to judge anyone else for their preferences. I'm a pretty accepting, open person, anyway. I could probably fall in love with you (any of you) if you reveal yourself to me. I am deeply touched by authenticity, in all its forms. But, I've learned that love isn't always love, at least for me. I definitely have sexual preferences and proclivities. If you're a woman, that's great. If you have masculine qualities, that's perfect. I'm absolutely certain that my kind of desire grosses other people out. So, butch on butch doesn't perplex me, nor does femme on femme. Or just about anything else that's legal. We've come too far to require one another to justify who we are and how we're wired.
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Old 01-13-2010, 10:24 AM   #16
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I agree with the internalized homophobia angle that e presented. I think it applies to both butch/butch and femme/femme coupling, but it seems the femme/femme dynamic can more often be seen as arousing in the same way that hetero men often think of two women together, as if they are hot and sexy but incomplete in a way that makes it easy to fantasize sliding in there as a man or a butch and completing the image.

Butch/butch, however, is more often seen as complete, just as gay male couples are, and not inviting that idea of a masculine person to complete the image (not that no one ever fantasizes about being a third with two men or two butches, but that it's not as common to hear about or see, and I think more often the locus of interaction is projected to be the third party rather than the first two).

It's yet another manifestation of misogyny, I think, just as I think all homophobia is when cut to its core.
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:02 PM   #17
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If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan
hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan
I don't think homophobia is restricted to a traditional understanding of homosexuality. I think sometimes people are suspicious of or uncomfortable around hetero couples when the man is particularly feminine or the woman is particularly masculine or both. It's not just about sex, not just about gender identity, not just about presentation, and it does seem to be largely situational.

Take a femme/femme couple. Some groups or communities would tend toward viewing this as arousing; others would tend toward squicky. Balance is reached when it's not noticed as anything out of the ordinary, instead of either fetishized or rejected as being different.
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by honeybarbara View Post
hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]
right

So, even though there may be crosses of sex...genders are somewhat similar (if we're using gender loosely...say like masculine/masculine, feminine/feminine...just to make very ez examples. Obviously gender could be broken down more, but I'm trying to keep this hella ez).

So, you may have two same sex people (say, two female ID'd people), whose gender (butch on butch) match. They are homosexed, and also homogendered. But you may also have two differently sexed folks (male/female...again to keep it simple), whose genders are aligned (effeminate male with a non-masculine female). Heterosexed but homogendered. A transman and a female ID'd butch...could be heterosexed, but homogendered also (or heterosexed and heterogendered if the transman were feminine). (again, using gender very loosely as feminine and masculine just to keep things simple).

Either of these couples (as labete states) is going to make some people somewhat uncomfortable. While this discomfort could be lumped into some sort of 'homophobia', with the het couple, it's not a matter of homophobia (since they're straight). It's the effeminate gender of the male that makes folks uncomfortable. The same could be said for het butches.

I am probably not explaining myself well, but I can't post long right now...I'm at work, but wanted to see what folks had to say.


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