Butch Femme Planet  

Go Back   Butch Femme Planet > LOVE > Romance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-18-2010, 06:30 PM   #1
SassyLeo
Is Grateful

How Do You Identify?:
Queer Femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
She
Relationship Status:
Engaged
 
SassyLeo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The PDX
Posts: 1,526
Thanks: 846
Thanked 1,584 Times in 623 Posts
Rep Power: 641448
SassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST Reputation
Default Unconditional Love... is it really unconditional?

I was listening to NPR last night; Fresh Air with Terry Gross. She had Karl Rove on.

Talk about a hard interview. He talked over Terry, didn’t listen well…and was quick to disagree with practically EVERYTHING she said.

Sometimes I am fascinated by people whom I don’t understand. Sometimes I’m annoyed to the hilt…but last night I was intrigued. And especially when he was talking about his father.

He talks a lot about the media’s obsession with whether his father was gay or not.

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcr...ryId=124597241

Here is an excerpt:

GROSS: Later, the question seemed to arise: Was your father gay? And you write: Could Dad have been gay? I didn't see it. I know he had gay friends and volunteered for years at the Desert AIDS Project in Palm Springs, but having gay friends or being concerned about whether someone who is sick gets driven to a clinic appointment or gets a delivery of groceries doesn't make you gay. To this day, I have no idea if my father was gay, and frankly, I don't care.

I know you hate this connection, but I can't help but wonder, if there's any chance that your father was gay, did you ever think that your style of politics, that your running against gay marriage - and I would argue, against...

Mr. ROVE: Running for traditional marriage.

GROSS: ...that that might have had a negative effect on his life.

Mr. ROVE: Well, I wrote about this in the book because - I didn't want to, but it - people, journalists and liberal commentators used allegations that my father was gay to attack me, to suggest - and I'm not suggesting you're exactly like it, because you're much more restrained in your rhetoric than many of them were - that somehow or another, it was hypocritical and inappropriate for me to defend traditional marriage when my father was gay.

Well, first of all, I don't know whether he was gay or not, and frankly, I never saw it and I don't care. But it's also, I think, hypocritical for people to suggest that if you have gay relatives or gay friends that you have to be in favor of gay marriage or you're somehow hypocritical.

*snip*

GROSS: So but one more thing. When you say that you didn't know if your father was gay and that you didn't care, I guess I'm just kind of curious why you didn't want to know, because you say you didn't want to know. And it just seems to me if someone's gay, it's kind of who they love, who their partner is, it's partly at the essence of who they are. And why wouldn't you want to know that?

Mr. ROVE: Because, first of all, it's my father's decision to tell me. I mean, my father was an art collector. It was up to him to say I'm an art collector. I mean, it was up to my father - my father was a very private man. He was a taciturn Midwesterner, a Scandinavian to boot.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Mr. ROVE: And, for example, when my wife asked him about my mother late in his life, I was amazed. I was overcome when my father began to describe my mother and the relationship in intimate terms and to talk about her in a way that was so powerful about how much he loved her, and to begin to weep.

I mean, I was taken aback because it was - my father was a very private man. So, you know, it's not like I need to know my father's private views or private actions in order to know that I loved him. And, you know, it's sort of like -it was his business. And if he was, fine. If he wasn't, fine. But it was up to him to tell me what he was comfortable telling me, not for me to pry - and particularly since, look, this was not a question until people began, in the aftermath of his death, to make allegations about him.

*snip*

Not that it should make sense *at all* - coming from Karl Rove. But how can ANYONE reconcile this? How could he *not care*? Either his father was not gay or he is in complete denial.

Here is what it got me thinking about: can he or anyone else *really* love someone totally unconditionally when they potentially vehemently disagree with the other person’s identity, beliefs, how they operate in the world, etc. When you unconditionally love someone, do you *not care* if they are gay or an art dealer or a street peddler – if those are descriptors that they use to define themselves and feel are a part of their identity? As Terry said “And it just seems to me if someone's gay, it's kind of who they love, who their partner is, it's partly at the essence of who they are. And why wouldn't you want to know that?”

For example: My father is gay. He came out in 1986. At one point he told his parents (my grandparents) and they didn’t speak to him for 3-5 years. They eventually became in touch again (after he initiated contact –partly his guilt because they were aging and ill), but they NEVER talk about his orientation or his partner whom he has been with for 12 years. My grandfather passed a couple of years ago and my grandma has been ill. I made a choice not tell them about me…it’s just easier. I know they are homophobic. Did they love my dad unconditionally? I doubt it.

I wonder if I could love someone unconditionally if they did not accept me for who I am as a Queer person.

I’m interested in others thoughts…
__________________
Joy is the best makeup
-Anne Lamott
SassyLeo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to SassyLeo For This Useful Post:
Old 03-18-2010, 07:12 PM   #2
key
Member

How Do You Identify?:
androgynous, gender-queer, butch
Preferred Pronoun?:
depends on person addressing me
Relationship Status:
merrily single hopefully married one day
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: san francisco, ca and chama, nm
Posts: 197
Thanks: 59
Thanked 427 Times in 136 Posts
Rep Power: 885758
key Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default wow does this hit close to home

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?

I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
key is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to key For This Useful Post:
Old 03-18-2010, 07:20 PM   #3
Hack
Just a guy.

How Do You Identify?:
Just a guy
Preferred Pronoun?:
male
Relationship Status:
Sparkle's consort
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: MA
Posts: 1,458
Thanks: 807
Thanked 3,794 Times in 962 Posts
Rep Power: 21474847
Hack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST ReputationHack Has the BEST Reputation
Default

I'm generally a private person -- one of those "taciturn Midwesterners," perhaps. I like to think I just come from stoic German stock. Anyway, there's one thing in this I want to respond to, if I may, because I live it every day.

You pose the question: I wonder if I could love someone unconditionally if they did not accept me for who I am as a Queer person?

Well, I do. My parents, but moreso my mother. I have a complicated relationship with my mother. She does not accept me as a queer person. She wants to know nothing about my private life, which causes me great grief around the holidays, which I dread more than anything. My mother is very Catholic. I grew up in a very old school, kind of Old World atmosphere, bookended by my father's German/WASPish family on one end, people incapable of expressing emotion of any kind; and my mother's Polish/Catholic family on the other end -- loud, raucuous, hard-drinking, guilt-riddled people. I grew up in a small town with no queer role model in sight. I love my mother. I respect her. She introduces me to people based on my job, and as her daughter, which draws curious looks from strangers. She struggles to acknowledge any girl I bring home...don't get me wrong -- she's polite, civil and will ask the basic questions of her ("What do you do for a living? Do you have siblings? Where did you grow up?"). But my mother never will be a PFLAG member. She will never call me by my chosen name. She would never attend a ceremony should I, god help me, ever want to be married. She never asks me if I am seeing someone. She never asks about my girlfriend when I have one. I grew up surrounded by men who treated their women like queens. I grew up respecting women. As I said, I respect my mother. I'm protective of her. I open doors for her when I am around her. I get angry when people show a lack of respect toward her.

But she has no respect for me and my life. But I love her. She's my mother.

And that's really all I want to say about that.

Jake
Hack is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Hack For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 06:13 PM   #4
SassyLeo
Is Grateful

How Do You Identify?:
Queer Femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
She
Relationship Status:
Engaged
 
SassyLeo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The PDX
Posts: 1,526
Thanks: 846
Thanked 1,584 Times in 623 Posts
Rep Power: 641448
SassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by key View Post
This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?

I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

I've been thinking about this myself as well. What is unconditional love, really? Can it *really* exist. I want to say yes, but I'm not sure I can...

I think to myself that I love people in my life unconditionally...but what if one of them became a drug addict and stole from me? Or killed someone? Or???

Could I unconditionally love someone who betrayed me so much?

I posted in another thread about a colleague who had been reconnecting with her faith and questioning heaven and hell. Her pastor's wife was explaining that they believe if you do not live a Christian life, that you go to hell. So basically all my colleague's friends, whom she loved, based on this belief, were going to hell. She could not reconcile this.

So I think about your family...they love you I am sure, but in their eyes, you are committing a huge sin, I imagine. And you love them, even though they think you are not okay...

It's challenging...
__________________
Joy is the best makeup
-Anne Lamott
SassyLeo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to SassyLeo For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 06:58 PM   #5
cinderella
Member

How Do You Identify?:
Pinky's mommy :)
Preferred Pronoun?:
Su Majestad
Relationship Status:
Happy with my puppy
 
cinderella's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pocono Mtns., Pa.
Posts: 1,238
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1,500 Times in 637 Posts
Rep Power: 14266102
cinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputationcinderella Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Only dogs & pupppies love unconditionally, and that's if you feed them!!
cinderella is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to cinderella For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 07:48 PM   #6
key
Member

How Do You Identify?:
androgynous, gender-queer, butch
Preferred Pronoun?:
depends on person addressing me
Relationship Status:
merrily single hopefully married one day
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: san francisco, ca and chama, nm
Posts: 197
Thanks: 59
Thanked 427 Times in 136 Posts
Rep Power: 885758
key Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default reluctantly....

very reluctantly quoting Don Henley.

I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness, even if, even if
you don't love me anymore

I do believe it is possible to love unconditionally, maybe not everybody can do it and maybe not all the time. But I have had fleeting moments where I could look at my family, honestly, with all their flaws and shortcomings and not want them to be different, instead simply accepting them as-is. Isn't that unconditional love?

I think love and forgiveness can be learned. I don't think it is always something that just happens naturally (for most of us). For our sweethearts it is easier, but for those who don't fit so neatly into our ideals? I believe practice can make perfect. And our actions can change our minds more than the other way around. Just practicing kindness in the face of fierce opposition can be very powerful.

It's sort of side note, but did you see that video recently of the man with Parkinson's disease who sat in front of anti-healthcare protesters? The anti-health protesters were so vile, that him simply sitting there, literally absorbing their venom, was the most powerful image I have seen in a long long time. I don't know if he couldn't physically lash back or he just chose not to. But dayamn, I wish I could be that calm in the face of so much anti-Christian hatred I see from so many Jesus lovers.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
key is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to key For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 08:11 PM   #7
Gemme
Practically Lives Here

How Do You Identify?:
Queer Stone Femme Girl of the Unicorn Variety
Preferred Pronoun?:
She, as in 'She's a GEM'
 
Gemme's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The roads are narrow here
Posts: 34,849
Thanks: 173,565
Thanked 102,855 Times in 24,037 Posts
Rep Power: 21474880
Gemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST ReputationGemme Has the BEST Reputation
Default

I do not believe in unconditional love. There are always conditions, whether conscious or not, and whether intentional or not.

If you don't do a, b, or c, I will withhold my affection for you. If you don't love me as I want to be loved, I will not love you as you want to be loved. If you do this, I'll do that.

For pets, if you don't feed me and love on me, I will shit in your shoes.

For children, if you do not give me the attention I seek and need, I will act out to get it, find another source to get it, or turn the demon inward.

These are just examples. I actually think that loving with conditions is a good thing. It's built in protection.

Person A is constantly hurting my feelings and trash talking me, so, though I do love him/her, I will withhold my affection and attention and put more space between us. I will take myself out of that negative energy space. That's a good thing.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I'm misunderestimated.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Gemme is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Gemme For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 08:17 PM   #8
moxie
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
a cynical princess wannabe
Preferred Pronoun?:
lipgloss junkie
Relationship Status:
yep
 
moxie's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: the ville
Posts: 3,027
Thanks: 2,544
Thanked 6,772 Times in 1,849 Posts
Rep Power: 21474849
moxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputationmoxie Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemme View Post
I do not believe in unconditional love. There are always conditions, whether conscious or not, and whether intentional or not.

If you don't do a, b, or c, I will withhold my affection for you. If you don't love me as I want to be loved, I will not love you as you want to be loved. If you do this, I'll do that.

For pets, if you don't feed me and love on me, I will shit in your shoes.

For children, if you do not give me the attention I seek and need, I will act out to get it, find another source to get it, or turn the demon inward.

These are just examples. I actually think that loving with conditions is a good thing. It's built in protection.

Person A is constantly hurting my feelings and trash talking me, so, though I do love him/her, I will withhold my affection and attention and put more space between us. I will take myself out of that negative energy space. That's a good thing.


I whole-heartedly agree with your view on unconditional love as I feel the same. I am aware that I feel this way because I have never received unconditional love from my family (long story) and have no contact with them, so I truly do not know what it is or what it feels like to have. I do believe that it exists, but not in my personal framework. Not sure it ever will.
moxie is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to moxie For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 09:14 PM   #9
WolfyOne
Magically Delicious

How Do You Identify?:
Gentle Butch
Relationship Status:
I may just be ready to open my heart again
 
WolfyOne's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,553
Thanks: 22,013
Thanked 15,385 Times in 4,133 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852
WolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST ReputationWolfyOne Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Personally, I think only animals and little children can give unconditional love because they depend on us. No matter how you treat them, they'll always come back because they need you. As children get older, they learn to fend for themselves and unconditional love will no longer exist. Seems as we grow older, if you can't accept the good, bad and ugly in a partner, you'll never be able to give or receive unconditional love.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage --- Lao Tzo
WolfyOne is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to WolfyOne For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 10:58 PM   #10
Passionaria
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
Urban Bohemian : http://youtu.be/IM96Ch9Gx4A
 
Passionaria's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: She ran away with with the Gypsy's ✿
Posts: 2,519
Thanks: 5,316
Thanked 3,735 Times in 1,247 Posts
Rep Power: 16689904
Passionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST Reputation
Default In my mind........

Unconditional love, is akin to purity of heart. It is a completely unselfish state of love. It isn't dependent on receiving anything in return. I agree that children and animals have this, also many Mothers. My children have tested me in about every way possible, and what it had taught me is that the love I have for them isn't dependent on who they choose to be, even how they act, or what they achieve. The love I have for them exists before any of that. I may not always like what they do, but no matter what, I love them, and would move heaven and earth on their behalf.

It's harder to feel that for someone you didn't give birth to, but I do believe it is possible. You have to be careful not to damage the Love before it grows strong, though.

Pashi
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Moon cat madness
Passionaria is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Passionaria For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 11:02 PM   #11
Cyclopea
Member

How Do You Identify?:
Butch Lesbian
 
Cyclopea's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Exit Zero
Posts: 1,267
Thanks: 1,694
Thanked 1,615 Times in 632 Posts
Rep Power: 226194
Cyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST ReputationCyclopea Has the BEST Reputation
Default

It exists.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Cyclopea is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cyclopea For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 11:11 PM   #12
DapperButch
Roadster Guy

How Do You Identify?:
FTM, Stone Butch
Preferred Pronoun?:
He
 
DapperButch's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northeast
Posts: 7,745
Thanks: 26,545
Thanked 26,981 Times in 5,777 Posts
Rep Power: 21474853
DapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST ReputationDapperButch Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by key View Post
This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?
I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyLeo View Post
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][B]
I've been thinking about this myself as well. What is unconditional love, really? Can it *really* exist. I want to say yes, but I'm not sure I can...

I think to myself that I love people in my life unconditionally...but what if one of them became a drug addict and stole from me? Or killed someone? Or???

Could I unconditionally love someone who betrayed me so much?

I posted in another thread about a colleague who had been reconnecting with her faith and questioning heaven and hell. Her pastor's wife was explaining that they believe if you do not live a Christian life, that you go to hell. So basically all my colleague's friends, whom she loved, based on this belief, were going to hell. She could not reconcile this.

So I think about your family...they love you I am sure, but in their eyes, you are committing a huge sin, I imagine. And you love them, even though they think you are not okay...

It's challenging.



Hi Key and SassyLeo.

Key, I too grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian household. My parents truly, truly, truly worry about my eternal life. They worry that I may go to hell. For them, the way one gets to heaven is [believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accepting him as your Lord and Savior.]. You do not get to heaven by good works. You do not get to heaven by being a nice guy, a good mother, a good partner, and a good friend. You get to heaven through the above, just as SassyLeo's colleague was told. The expectation is that you will have a "relationship" with God/Jesus and live your life according to his Word (Bible).

The version of the Bible my parents use says that homosexuality is a sin. Now, under their church's teaching, you don't go to hell for sinning, your go for not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. However, things get kind of sticky around the sin part b/c the assumption is that if you are choosing to do a habitual sin (sleep with the same sex and plan on repeating it), than one could theoretically question if a person is really a Christian b/c if you were a Christian you would not want to sin against God. Therefore, since I sleep with someone of the same sex, I must not (at minimum) have the "right kind" of relationship with God, so it calls into question if I will make it into heaven or not. Still with me? lol

My parents are worried about this...I mean WORRIED. They love their kid. And I truly believe that they love me unconditionally. I think that it is possible to love someone unconditionally (especially for a parent...well, this is what it seems like anyway but, I am not a parent). They are just freaked out about it. Have they wanted to meet my partners in the past? Well, I can't say that they were excited about it, but always responded with a yes to meeting them. Have I explained to them that it is important that if I have someone who looks to be a long term partner that they need to accept her and our relationship? Yep. Have they tried in this regard over the past few years? Yep.

But, do they still think that I am probably going to hell and do I think they most likely pray that I will become straight? Yep. Do I think that they "love me unconditionally"? Yep. I see it in soooo many ways, just too many times to discount.

So, Key, for me, my parents concern for my eternal life and their belief that I am sinning does not mean to me that they don't love me. In this case, it means that maybe they love me too much. If they didn't it wouldn't tear them up inside and it wouldn't "cause [my] father to pace the floors at night" (Yeah mom, thanks for THAT guilt! You get away with saying that ONCE!).

So no, their belief system does not impact their ability and natural inclination of unconditional love for me.

Side note: My parents are in no way, in your face, bible thumpers. They just do their thing and if someone asked them about their "thing", they would be happy to share it with them.

Side, side note: Damn, I never expected that I would ever share this much about my family and how their religion impacts things (and me) on a web site.
__________________
-Dapper
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Are you educated or indoctrinated?
DapperButch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DapperButch For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2010, 11:21 PM   #13
key
Member

How Do You Identify?:
androgynous, gender-queer, butch
Preferred Pronoun?:
depends on person addressing me
Relationship Status:
merrily single hopefully married one day
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: san francisco, ca and chama, nm
Posts: 197
Thanks: 59
Thanked 427 Times in 136 Posts
Rep Power: 885758
key Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputationkey Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default I don't want to live in a world

I don't want to live in a world where I believe there is not unconditional love. Yes, between humans.

I think we all love as best we can and I do believe that the highest, purist, most unconditional love is available to and for all of us whether we choose to experience it or not.

As I said before I have a had fleeting moments of it myself, and I think if I consciously practiced it more often (prayer, meditation and action) I could experience it more often. And also like I said before, I think it all starts with forgiveness, simply letting go of wishing anything were different. Accepting everyone and everything as is.

Marianne Williamson said: We are not held back by the love we didn't receive in the past, but by the love we're not extending in the present.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
key is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to key For This Useful Post:
Old 03-20-2010, 02:41 AM   #14
adorable
Member

How Do You Identify?:
Sarcastically
Preferred Pronoun?:
She
Relationship Status:
Unavailable
 
adorable's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Home of the Yankee's
Posts: 752
Thanks: 1,708
Thanked 2,648 Times in 590 Posts
Rep Power: 12725113
adorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputationadorable Has the BEST Reputation
Default

I can say with absolute certainty that no matter what my kids may ever do - my love for them would never change. I might not approve of whatever it is...and trust me I've already been there with the big one. lol. They are my kids, my heart and my purpose for being on this earth. For whatever shortcomings I might see in them, I think that means I have failed them in significant ways - yet they still love me. I would never tell them who or what they have to be for me to love them.

In my family I am probably closest to my grandparents. We have never spoken of my queerness. It was just understood. Do they love me? I suppose. I think they do it the only way they know how. To expect more of them doesn't seem fair. They're old. They believe what they believe. It would be disrespectful of me to try to change them in the same way it would be for them to try and change me. I don't like some of the choices they make either. I love them though and would do anything for them.

I have learned unconditional love from my kids. They taught me that. Because of them I can love my close friends unconditionally, my brother and even my grandparents. I certainly didn't have it from my mother growing up. There was nowhere else I would have learned it from. No matter what the significant people in my life may do - my love for them is always there.
adorable is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to adorable For This Useful Post:
Old 03-20-2010, 11:01 AM   #15
julieisafemme
Member

How Do You Identify?:
Femme Woman
Preferred Pronoun?:
She
Relationship Status:
Married to Greyson
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: In the present
Posts: 828
Thanks: 3,156
Thanked 3,451 Times in 660 Posts
Rep Power: 21474846
julieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputationjulieisafemme Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default

What an excellent thread. Thank you for starting it.

I believe unconditional love is something we aspire too every day. Some days I am pretty good and others not so much. I, like others who have posted, have learned and experienced unconditional love through my child. It's easier to see the twists and turns of behavior and hurt and anger in children. You can stay above it and not take it personally so that you can be there for them. That has helped me learn the skills to try it on adults. It is hard! Let me tell you it is easier to respond in anger than in love. But when I can check myself and look at my Mom or brother or partner and respond with love it completely transforms the interaction. It is kind of magical!
julieisafemme is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to julieisafemme For This Useful Post:
Old 03-20-2010, 12:29 PM   #16
SassyLeo
Is Grateful

How Do You Identify?:
Queer Femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
She
Relationship Status:
Engaged
 
SassyLeo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The PDX
Posts: 1,526
Thanks: 846
Thanked 1,584 Times in 623 Posts
Rep Power: 641448
SassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DapperButch View Post
[/COLOR]
Hi Key and SassyLeo.

Key, I too grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian household. My parents truly, truly, truly worry about my eternal life. They worry that I may go to hell. For them, the way one gets to heaven is [believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accepting him as your Lord and Savior.]. You do not get to heaven by good works. You do not get to heaven by being a nice guy, a good mother, a good partner, and a good friend. You get to heaven through the above, just as SassyLeo's colleague was told. The expectation is that you will have a "relationship" with God/Jesus and live your life according to his Word (Bible).

The version of the Bible my parents use says that homosexuality is a sin. Now, under their church's teaching, you don't go to hell for sinning, your go for not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. However, things get kind of sticky around the sin part b/c the assumption is that if you are choosing to do a habitual sin (sleep with the same sex and plan on repeating it), than one could theoretically question if a person is really a Christian b/c if you were a Christian you would not want to sin against God. Therefore, since I sleep with someone of the same sex, I must not (at minimum) have the "right kind" of relationship with God, so it calls into question if I will make it into heaven or not. Still with me? lol

My parents are worried about this...I mean WORRIED. They love their kid. And I truly believe that they love me unconditionally. I think that it is possible to love someone unconditionally (especially for a parent...well, this is what it seems like anyway but, I am not a parent). They are just freaked out about it. Have they wanted to meet my partners in the past? Well, I can't say that they were excited about it, but always responded with a yes to meeting them. Have I explained to them that it is important that if I have someone who looks to be a long term partner that they need to accept her and our relationship? Yep. Have they tried in this regard over the past few years? Yep.

But, do they still think that I am probably going to hell and do I think they most likely pray that I will become straight? Yep. Do I think that they "love me unconditionally"? Yep. I see it in soooo many ways, just too many times to discount.

So, Key, for me, my parents concern for my eternal life and their belief that I am sinning does not mean to me that they don't love me. In this case, it means that maybe they love me too much. If they didn't it wouldn't tear them up inside and it wouldn't "cause [my] father to pace the floors at night" (Yeah mom, thanks for THAT guilt! You get away with saying that ONCE!).

So no, their belief system does not impact their ability and natural inclination of unconditional love for me.

Side note: My parents are in no way, in your face, bible thumpers. They just do their thing and if someone asked them about their "thing", they would be happy to share it with them.

Side, side note: Damn, I never expected that I would ever share this much about my family and how their religion impacts things (and me) on a web site.

Thank you for this perspective.

Because I don't subscribe to traditional Christian beliefs about Jesus, Lord and Savior, sinning, etc....I do not understand and have a huge challenge even trying to *get* these belief systems.

I can feel from your post that they do love you and are worried. from that heart/head space, I can grasp better.

Doesn't mean I'm joining the Christian masses obviously....but it helps to process it
__________________
Joy is the best makeup
-Anne Lamott
SassyLeo is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to SassyLeo For This Useful Post:
Old 03-20-2010, 12:39 PM   #17
SassyLeo
Is Grateful

How Do You Identify?:
Queer Femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
She
Relationship Status:
Engaged
 
SassyLeo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The PDX
Posts: 1,526
Thanks: 846
Thanked 1,584 Times in 623 Posts
Rep Power: 641448
SassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST ReputationSassyLeo Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfyOne View Post
Personally, I think only animals and little children can give unconditional love because they depend on us. No matter how you treat them, they'll always come back because they need you. As children get older, they learn to fend for themselves and unconditional love will no longer exist. Seems as we grow older, if you can't accept the good, bad and ugly in a partner, you'll never be able to give or receive unconditional love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Passionaria View Post
Unconditional love, is akin to purity of heart. It is a completely unselfish state of love. It isn't dependent on receiving anything in return. I agree that children and animals have this, also many Mothers. My children have tested me in about every way possible, and what it had taught me is that the love I have for them isn't dependent on who they choose to be, even how they act, or what they achieve. The love I have for them exists before any of that. I may not always like what they do, but no matter what, I love them, and would move heaven and earth on their behalf.

It's harder to feel that for someone you didn't give birth to, but I do believe it is possible. You have to be careful not to damage the Love before it grows strong, though.

Pashi
Quote:
Originally Posted by adorable View Post
I can say with absolute certainty that no matter what my kids may ever do - my love for them would never change. I might not approve of whatever it is...and trust me I've already been there with the big one. lol. They are my kids, my heart and my purpose for being on this earth. For whatever shortcomings I might see in them, I think that means I have failed them in significant ways - yet they still love me. I would never tell them who or what they have to be for me to love them.

In my family I am probably closest to my grandparents. We have never spoken of my queerness. It was just understood. Do they love me? I suppose. I think they do it the only way they know how. To expect more of them doesn't seem fair. They're old. They believe what they believe. It would be disrespectful of me to try to change them in the same way it would be for them to try and change me. I don't like some of the choices they make either. I love them though and would do anything for them.

I have learned unconditional love from my kids. They taught me that. Because of them I can love my close friends unconditionally, my brother and even my grandparents. I certainly didn't have it from my mother growing up. There was nowhere else I would have learned it from. No matter what the significant people in my life may do - my love for them is always there.
As much as my friends tease me about being a mother (as in, they used to buy me Mother's Day cards ), and there is definitely a caretaker and mothering instinct in me, I am not a mother...and could not speak from this perspective.

But I am sure my mother could. When I think about it this way...well, I know that my parents love(d) me completely unconditionally. I am sure I *tested* them many a time. And they still loved me. And I am sure they taught me to also love this way. I admire you parents in this way. Do you think you would still love them unconditionally if they did something really awful? I guess it is hard to say "what if"....

I think about friends whom I've had over the years who have done things which I did not agree with, but I still loved them. I guess, unconditionally. I had a few friends who did really fucked up stuff and I chose to separate from the friendship. Was I then withholding the unconditional love?
__________________
Joy is the best makeup
-Anne Lamott
SassyLeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2010, 12:40 PM   #18
Sachita
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
Alpha Femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
Goddess
Relationship Status:
Completely in love
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southern Virginia
Posts: 3,225
Thanks: 2,564
Thanked 8,992 Times in 2,251 Posts
Rep Power: 21474849
Sachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack View Post
I'm generally a private person -- one of those "taciturn Midwesterners," perhaps. I like to think I just come from stoic German stock. Anyway, there's one thing in this I want to respond to, if I may, because I live it every day.

You pose the question: I wonder if I could love someone unconditionally if they did not accept me for who I am as a Queer person?

Well, I do. My parents, but moreso my mother. I have a complicated relationship with my mother. She does not accept me as a queer person. She wants to know nothing about my private life, which causes me great grief around the holidays, which I dread more than anything. My mother is very Catholic. I grew up in a very old school, kind of Old World atmosphere, bookended by my father's German/WASPish family on one end, people incapable of expressing emotion of any kind; and my mother's Polish/Catholic family on the other end -- loud, raucuous, hard-drinking, guilt-riddled people. I grew up in a small town with no queer role model in sight. I love my mother. I respect her. She introduces me to people based on my job, and as her daughter, which draws curious looks from strangers. She struggles to acknowledge any girl I bring home...don't get me wrong -- she's polite, civil and will ask the basic questions of her ("What do you do for a living? Do you have siblings? Where did you grow up?"). But my mother never will be a PFLAG member. She will never call me by my chosen name. She would never attend a ceremony should I, god help me, ever want to be married. She never asks me if I am seeing someone. She never asks about my girlfriend when I have one. I grew up surrounded by men who treated their women like queens. I grew up respecting women. As I said, I respect my mother. I'm protective of her. I open doors for her when I am around her. I get angry when people show a lack of respect toward her.

But she has no respect for me and my life. But I love her. She's my mother.

And that's really all I want to say about that.

Jake
I'm really sorry for this Jake. I have a friend who struggles with this and adores his family but just can't get them to accept. They call him by his birth name, a girl and make comments about his clothes, etc. He wasn't invited to his sisters wedding unless he wore something appropriate. He didn't go.

My family has always accepted me. They accept my lovers as family and they are even still in touch with a few ex's. I'm very grateful for that.
__________________
You either like me or you don't. It took me Twenty-something years to learn how to love myself, I don't have that kinda time to convince somebody else.
~ Daniel Franzese
Sachita is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sachita For This Useful Post:
Old 03-20-2010, 12:56 PM   #19
Passionaria
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
Urban Bohemian : http://youtu.be/IM96Ch9Gx4A
 
Passionaria's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: She ran away with with the Gypsy's ✿
Posts: 2,519
Thanks: 5,316
Thanked 3,735 Times in 1,247 Posts
Rep Power: 16689904
Passionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST ReputationPassionaria Has the BEST Reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SassyLeo View Post
Do you think you would still love them unconditionally if they did something really awful? I guess it is hard to say "what if"....

I think about friends whom I've had over the years who have done things which I did not agree with, but I still loved them. I guess, unconditionally. I had a few friends who did really fucked up stuff and I chose to separate from the friendship. Was I then withholding the unconditional love?
Hi SassyLeo, sounds like you have wonderful parents! No wonder you are so lovely

Unfortunately, I can answer this, yes even when they mess up big time.....
As far as friends go? I personally don't think it is a good idea to love "everyone" unconditionally, just the ones who have proven themselves worthy of such a special gift. Unconditional integrity, yes, love no......

Pashi
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Moon cat madness
Passionaria is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Passionaria For This Useful Post:
Old 03-20-2010, 01:02 PM   #20
Sachita
Senior Member

How Do You Identify?:
Alpha Femme
Preferred Pronoun?:
Goddess
Relationship Status:
Completely in love
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southern Virginia
Posts: 3,225
Thanks: 2,564
Thanked 8,992 Times in 2,251 Posts
Rep Power: 21474849
Sachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST ReputationSachita Has the BEST Reputation
Member Photo Albums
Default

I have thought a lot about this in this past year.

I can honestly say that I love without conditions. I may not like someone and I do have standards on what I'll allow in my space. Even people I don't really like I love and feel true deep compassion. I'm grateful I don't have that type of emotion in me even when pushed to the limits. There is one person who pushed me pretty far, awful things and lies for years. I had anger inside so intense I truly wanted to hunt her down and beat her. Time passed and it went away. It bothered me that I even allowed it to bother me so much. If I stand up for myself, don't allow myself to be treated badly, look at you in your face and tell you to fuck off, it doesn't mean I also wouldn't give you the shirt off my back or that compassion has left me. It means I ain't taking any shit or I don't like you.

Everything has conditions per se, however the very essence of love is something that exist, has few rules and lives in every spirit. It can be very simple or complex.
__________________
You either like me or you don't. It took me Twenty-something years to learn how to love myself, I don't have that kinda time to convince somebody else.
~ Daniel Franzese
Sachita is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sachita For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:23 PM.


ButchFemmePlanet.com
All information copyright of BFP 2018