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Old 11-24-2015, 04:15 AM   #1
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Default Turkey shoots down Russian War plane

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...der-with-syria
Turkey shoots down Russian jet near Syrian border

This is really, really frightening. I can't sleep.
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:33 AM   #2
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It is seriously not a good thing. There is already too much crazy stuff going on.
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:47 AM   #3
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Oh no. This gives me a sick feeling in my belly.
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:04 AM   #4
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You all don't believe in God, but if you get a chance (just for shits and giggles) read the Bible, especially what is talked about as the "ends days". We have been moving toward this for over 2000 years.

While you laugh at me and make fun of me and my faith, these times have been foretold.
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:15 AM   #5
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No, this is not good at all.

If Greece shot down a plane every time Turkey violated it's airspace, I doubt Turkey would have many fighter jets left.

I can only hope the US and the West in general condemn this action by Turkey. That might satisfy Putin and he will be able to back down from this and still save face. But since this is the response from the US so far, I can only surmise Russia is in for a bumpy ride. Chalk one up for the Islamic State terrorists.

"Speaking on the condition of anonymity, a Pentagon official told reporters in Washington that the U.S. was uninvolved in what had happened. “Our Turkish allies informed us that their military aircraft shot down a Russian military aircraft near the Syrian border after it violated Turkish airspace on Tuesday,” the official said. “At this time, we can confirm that US forces were not involved in this incident.”

Putin is understandably a bit pissed off right now.

“Our pilots and our plane never threatened the Republic of Turkey in any way. This is an obvious fact,” Mr. Putin said ahead of a meeting with Jordan’s King Abdullah II in the Black Sea resort of Sochi. “Today’s loss is a stab in our back delivered by the accomplices of terrorists. I cannot find another wording for what happened today.”

"Mr. Putin said Russia had always treated Turkey as “a friendly nation,” but pulled no punches in outlining what he saw as Turkish complicity in the rise of Islamic State, which he referred to by the acronym ISIL. “ISIL has big money, hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars, from selling oil. In addition they are protected by the military of an entire nation. One can understand why they are acting so boldly and blatantly. Why they kill people in such atrocious ways. Why they commit terrorist acts across the world, including in the heart of Europe.”

What I can't understand is why the US and the West continues to support the countries that fund and arm the terrorists that attack the West.

Here is the article where I got the quotes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle27449031/
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Tick View Post
What I can't understand is why the US and the West continues to support the countries that fund and arm the terrorists that attack the West.
As much as I hate the idea, and as much as I avoid conspiracy theories in an effort to preserve my mental health, I really think it has to do with the oil-related wealth of some very powerful people, people whose greed completely overrides their ethics.

But, I would really like someone to convince me that I'm wrong.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Uli View Post
As much as I hate the idea, and as much as I avoid conspiracy theories in an effort to preserve my mental health, I really think it has to do with the oil-related wealth of some very powerful people, people whose greed completely overrides their ethics.

But, I would really like someone to convince me that I'm wrong.
I have a hard time believing it's about oil or just oil. And I would love someone to convince me I'm wrong as well. It makes me feel sick. I wish it was just some conspiracy theory that I could ignore as the ranting of some paranoid nut, but it is well documented that these countries who are allies of the US fund these terrorist groups. There is no denying that. It would be like denying that the US funded right wing paramilitary forces in Central America to stop left wing revolutionaries.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:14 PM   #8
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I think this issue, alone and fueled by other not so transparent issues, is going to be the biggest deal breaker we've seen since prior world wars and subsequent wars over resources such as, but not limited to: Land, Water, Food, energy rights, cultural rights (.....).
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:32 PM   #9
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Interesting article about the dangers of a no-fly zone over Syria.

The Syrian no-fly risk: The 2016 candidates should explain why they want to chance a disaster
The downing of a Russian jet over Syria highlights the risk posed by a no-fly zone, which most 2016 candidates want

The big news this morning for those following the “hey we’re all spiraling towards World War III” beat is the downing of a Russian fighter jet by the Turkish air force after it crossed into Turkey’s air space overnight. Russia’s intervention in the Syrian civil war threw an added layer of chaos and confusion into the conflict, given that Russia, while ostensibly targeting everyone’s shared enemy in the Islamic State, has also been striking rebel groups who oppose Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. Turkey, which backs anti-Assad rebels in Syria, has been warning Russia to stop encroaching on its airspace and cease conducting airstrikes on civilian populations nearby the Turkish border.

Last night, a Russian plane violated Turkish airspace after repeated warnings and was shot down by two Turkish F-16s. The Russian pilots ejected and, according initial reports, one was killed by militants on the ground in Syria while the other was captured. Turkey is defending its actions and an emergency meeting of NATO has been called to discuss the incident. Vladimir Putin said the loss of the plane is “linked with a stab in our back delivered by terrorism accomplices.” The chances for further escalation seem remote, but it’s a tense reminder of how dangerous it is to have so many powerful countries operating on different sides of a nasty proxy conflict.

As far as this incident pertains to U.S. politics, it should pose some difficult questions for the 2016 presidential candidates who favor deepened American involvement in the Syrian conflict and the establishment of a no-fly zone over Syria. This is position of most of the Republican presidential contenders, with Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, and Donald Trump being the only exceptions. On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton backs the establishment of a Syrian no-fly zone, while Bernie Sanders and Martin O’Malley stand with the White House in rejecting the idea.

The reasons to oppose a no-fly zone were many and varied before Russia started its bombing campaign. But now that Russian planes are patrolling the skies over Syria, the establishment of a no-fly zone would put the United States in the position of having to potentially fire on Russian jets. Putin and his military commanders have already demonstrated that they’re willing to be reckless and provocative when it comes to violating the airspace of NATO countries. Putting American planes in the position of policing the skies over Syria increases the chances – either by deliberate provocation or horrible accident – of a shooting war breaking out between the United States and Russia. Turkey’s downing of a Russian aircraft demonstrates how real that possibility is.

Up to this point, there’s hasn’t been a ton of attention paid to the fact that so many would-be presidents are itching for the chance to potentially escalate the Syrian civil war into something much, much worse. Hillary Clinton was lightly challenged on this point at the Democratic debate in October, when O’Malley explained that a no-fly zone “could lead to an escalation because of an accident that we would deeply regret.” Rachel Maddow asked Clinton if she would shoot down a Russian jet that violated her no-fly zone, and she dodged the question as a “hypothetical,” going on to explain that imposing such a zone “doesn’t mean that you shoot at every aircraft that might violate it the first or second time.”

The Republicans have, predictably, been much more hawkish in their imagined showdown with Russia over Syrian airspace. Marco Rubio’s new plan for defeating the Islamic State calls for no-fly zones and “safe zones” in Syria as part of a broader effort to topple Assad, and he writes “I would oppose Russia and Iran in their fight to prolong Assad’s brutal regime.” CNBC’s John Harwood asked Rubio what he would do if Russia violated the no-fly zone, and Rubio expressed confidence that that would never happen because “I don’t think it’s in the Russians’ interest to engage in an armed conflict with the United States.” If it did happen, though, Rubio said “you’re going to have a problem, but that would be no different than any other adversary.”

Jeb Bush is similarly dismissive of the threat of escalation. “The argument is, well we’ll get into the conflict with Russia,” he told Charlie Rose last month, “maybe Russia shouldn’t want to be in conflict with us.” Chris Christie, in his gasbaggy way, said he’d set up the no-fly zone and then phone Putin to tell him “don’t test me.”

There’s a lot of bluster and muscle-flexing going on that, as the Turkish incident shows, could have potentially catastrophic consequences. It’s not enough for a candidate to just promise that everything will work out because they’ll be “strong” or show “resolve” or whatever vacant buzzword is masquerading for foreign policy these days. They’re actively courting a disaster.

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/24/the_...ce_a_disaster/
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:50 PM   #10
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I pray there will be saner minds to keep the peace, this is not good
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:11 PM   #11
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"You all don't believe in God..."
That's an incorrect generalization. I very much do believe in God and have met quite a few others on this forum who do as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly View Post
You all don't believe in God, but if you get a chance (just for shits and giggles) read the Bible, especially what is talked about as the "ends days". We have been moving toward this for over 2000 years.

While you laugh at me and make fun of me and my faith, these times have been foretold.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
"You all don't believe in God..."
That's an incorrect generalization. I very much do believe in God and have met quite a few others on this forum who do as well.
Is that all you got from my post? Smh

I generalized, because for the most part according to what I've seen (read), most people here do not believe in God, or the existence of a higher power. If my post pertains to you then it pertains to you, if not pass it over.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:43 PM   #13
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I quoted only that part because that was the part that I disagreed with and wanted to post about. I was not nasty with you, and I would very much appreciate the same respect from you. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly View Post
Is that all you got from my post? Smh

I generalized, because for the most part according to what I've seen (read), most people here do not believe in God, or the existence of a higher power. If my post pertains to you then it pertains to you, if not pass it over.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly View Post
You all don't believe in God, but if you get a chance (just for shits and giggles) read the Bible, especially what is talked about as the "ends days". We have been moving toward this for over 2000 years.

While you laugh at me and make fun of me and my faith, these times have been foretold.
Ms Tinkerbelly, Nobody is laughing at you. And while I don't believe in your particular idea of god, I do respect and hope we can learn from each other. I know the bible well and respectfully disagree that this is the end times. Mankind continues to repeat the same horrific mistakes throughout it's history and has only become more clever in it's war machines. The nature of men is to conquer and someone must submit. I don't believe in holy wars and there are no good reasons for them (imo). We will annihilate ourselves, one way or another this is ultimately our goal. Perhaps a few will survive, time will tell.
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
I quoted only that part because that was the part that I disagreed with and wanted to post about. I was not nasty with you, and I would very much appreciate the same respect from you. Thank you.
I am only going to say that I was by no stretch of the imagination being nasty to you. You are assuming a great deal, and I would appreciate you not posting anything further to me.
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittygrrl View Post
Ms Tinkerbelly, Nobody is laughing at you. And while I don't believe in your particular idea of god, I do respect and hope we can learn from each other. I know the bible well and respectfully disagree that this is the end times. Mankind continues to repeat the same horrific mistakes throughout it's history and has only become more clever in it's war machines. The nature of men is to conquer and someone must submit. I don't believe in holy wars and there are no good reasons for them (imo). We will annihilate ourselves, one way or another this is ultimately our goal. Perhaps a few will survive, time will tell.
I am not posting here to debate whether or not there is a God, and I am sorry ms. Cupcake for the derail to your thread. That was sooooooo not my intention.
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly View Post
I am not posting here to debate whether or not there is a God, and I am sorry ms. Cupcake for the derail to your thread. That was sooooooo not my intention.
Ms Tinkerbelly, I too derailed I would enjoy discussing this (god) topic (respectfully) with you anytime!
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Old 11-25-2015, 03:14 AM   #18
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Turkey Brings NATO to the Precipice of War With Russia

By shooting down a Russian fighter jet, Ankara could sunder the growing coalition against ISIS, which it has been aiding and abetting for some time.

Following today’s news that Turkey has shot a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 attack aircraft out of the sky, NATO ministers, former and current US government officials, and the wondrously pliable American punditocracy immediately began circling the wagons, pointing the finger of blame for the incident at Russian President Vladimir Putin. Indeed, only hours after the event, CNN’s Carol Costello put on-air two young Russia “analysts” who charged that Russian state media was “spinning” the story to the Russian government’s advantage. Quelle surprise!

The dominant narrative seems to be this: The Russians, having allegedly violated Turkish airspace repeatedly, had been duly warned by Turkish authorities against doing so at least twice. Indeed, Turkey claims it warned the doomed Su-24 no fewer than 10 times prior to the shoot-down. Worse still, the area that was purportedly being targeted by the Russian airstrikes was not known to be an ISIS stronghold, but is known to be an area largely inhabited by Syrian Turkmen. And so, as another CNN guest noted, since Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan feels a special responsibility to protect ethnic Turks wherever they may be, it shouldn’t have come as a surprise that a Russian jet would find itself in Turkey’s cross hairs.

Please note the utter hypocrisy on display here. For at least the last two years, we have been warned ad nauseam that Putin’s strikingly similar position toward ethnic Russians who reside outside Russia’s borders poses a grave threat to Western security. Yet, as with so much else—restrictions on press freedoms or the jailing of opposition figures—it’s damnable when Putin does it, but unremarked upon if Erdogan does it; after all, Turkey is a NATO ally.

And what an ally indeed!

Let us recap. Turkey has played a leading role in fomenting the unrest in Syria since the very beginning of the uprising against the rule of Bashar al-Assad in 2011. Turkey has aided, abetted, and funded ISIS by keeping its southern border open with Syria, allowing radical jihadists from Europe to cross back and forth from ISIS-controlled territory, thereby enabling them to return to Europe to plot and execute such attacks as were recently carried out in the French capital.

Turkish commodity dealers have funded ISIS through their purchase of, by one estimate, $50 million a month in black-market oil. Indeed, reports have surfaced alleging that none other than Erdogan’s son Bilal has been a key financial benefactor of this unseemly business.

Erdogan’s motives for the shoot-down are not terribly difficult to divine, and they have little to do with the alleged violation of Turkey’s sovereign airspace. As was widely reported, at the G20 summit last week in Antalya, Turkey, Putin revealed aerial surveillance and satellite imagery showing a miles-long line of oil-tanker trucks stretching from ISIS-controlled territory into Turkey.

And worse, from Erdogan’s standpoint, was the decision made by French President François Hollande to bypass NATO and instead appeal to to the EU to invoke its mutual-assistance clause, all the while advocating for a coalition against ISIS that would include the Russians. This morning’s shoot-down will ensure that NATO gets in the game, which is exactly what Erdogan, as a treaty member, wants.

And so, this incident should (but of course will not) make American policy makers alive to the fact that alliances can be dangerous things. Far from ensuring stability and security, alliances that overextend themselves, like NATO, put the stronger members (like the United States) at the mercy of weaker member states that indulge in reckless behavior they otherwise would never have even contemplated. Such is the case with Turkey’s actions this morning, and such may very well be the case with the Baltic states and Poland vis-à-vis Russia in the not-too-distant future.

What Turkey has done is to bring the NATO alliance yet another step closer to an open conflict with Russia, and at a minimum it has sundered the chances for a NATO-Russian coalition against ISIS in Syria, which perhaps was Erdogan’s plan all along. •

http://www.thenation.com/article/tur...r-with-russia/
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