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Old 07-24-2013, 06:35 AM   #21
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I've had yelling from cars for homophobia, sexism, size (when I was fat), and highschool idiots just being random assholes for no reason at all. It's not stopped me from holding someone's hand.
I've lived in a quite a few cities in a few different countries and traveled quite a bit I have only been very mindful about it in Indonesia, Malaysia, Panama and small towns in the states.
I am absolutely fine with arm in arm, hand holding, a nice kiss.
I do hug and cuddle if we are standing watching fire works or something but I don't have my legs over hers and strumming anyones hair if I'm on the tube or something. hand holding is something I love to do.

In london, as we approached a group of 7 boys who were drinking I went to let go of my partner's (at the time) hand. She said
"No. don't let go. they see you let go and they will know we're afraid and that's much worse. it's like dogs. keep your calm and don't be nervous."

we walked through their pack and one of them kicked me and the red mist decended and I spun around and kicked back. they laughed at the kid I hit and they said some silly shit and kept walking.

I've been attacked quite a few times for just being female. I'm really not afraid to punch people anymore. but I have never lived in a country with hand guns either.

But no. the harassment and attacks I've had have not discouraged me from holding hands in public.

one ex of mind would not hold hands. she said she thought is was childish. I told her I thought that was BS. she was scared. I pointed to tons of adults "are they childish? are they? do they look childish? how bout them? I think you are scared of being spotted for a homo. cause, like, you are so stealth about it by the way you look, right? no one knows you are a homo! better not hold hands and out yourself!" I was laughing and taking the piss.

she told me to shut it, but I was a bit relentless about it. she always got very PDA after a couple of drinks so I'm pretty damn sure it was fear of something. It was oxford. it's not like anything would have happened save a very unlikely shit comment. big whoop someone voices disapproval. jesus. never had that before. not sure how I'd manage to cope with the opinions of someone I don't know or care about...

My exwife wouldn't do it. she was scared. though I'm not sure why, having come from an extremely progressive country. Then after we were married she realised she had every fucking right to hold my hand, I was her goddamn wife. So she finally started holding my hand. It used to really hurt my feelings, though I tried not to feel hurt, it really did - that she would allow disapproving looks be more important than holding my hand. So finally I felt she had overcome her lack of "right" to hold my hand in public. Did we get snotty looks? sometimes. One wine and cheese canal cruise a table full of Italians were being extremely rude and glaring at me. She actually spoke up and told them that gay marriage was legal in holland and to suck it up or leave.

that was very appreciated. and the rest of the people on the cruise glared at the group who were being homophobic.

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Old 07-24-2013, 07:14 AM   #22
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Things have changed for me, over the years, in my personal experience.

When I was a young lesbian and holding hands with my femme girlfriend, there would always be looks and comments. Sometimes scary ones.

With my long-term ex butch, if I held her hand or her arm; it was much worse. She always was called sir at first, until they saw her bosoms-then, you could almost see the rage cross their faces, as they came to the realization that she was female.

Honestly, I always felt that because I was young and attractive, it particularly pissed off hostile men and teen boys: "what are you doing with her baby, I got something here for you"; as they grabbed their dicks.

What I have really come to grasp, in a very real and concrete way, is that as I age, I do become more invisible to straight (potentially hostile) bio men and that PDA between two older women only rates a passing glance.

My GF has very short salt and pepper hair. More salt than pepper. I clearly no longer look 25 (or 35 or 45 or 55....).

Now, we hold hands frequently (which scared the heck out of me when I was young) and wherever we are, an occasional raised eyebrow is all we get.

When I was younger, I remember reading about how one becomes more invisible to others as aging progresses. I now get to experience that phenomenon, in real life.

All of us have seen older women (and very much older women) holding the arm of another woman and unless one is really butch, we don't think twice about it, do we?

My perspective on the issue.

Oh, I do hate overt PDA's regardless of gender or sexual identities. My first thought is: "Get a room already"!
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:13 AM   #23
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I'm not into pda. I'm fine holding hands in public, an arm around me, a quick kiss hello/good-bye but that's enough.

It's interesting to me how it's shifted after only being with women for my life, and now being with a man (trans, but for all public knowledge, he's just a guy). When I was with women I would have the guard up when hand holding, etc, in public. Especially at something like a family event, or around my daughters friends. My ex and I often had absolutely no physical contact in those situations. Now, with homophobia not being an issue, I'm still not into pda because in my opinion and comfort zone for how I present myself, it's just not cool. But I also have some... I don't know- straight guilt/privilege awareness that he and I are pretty darn safe to hold hands, snuggle, etc in public. We laugh about it, about how "normal" we appear, especially when we're walking around with our kids and their friends. But it's still weird to be on the other side.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:30 AM   #24
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Pete and I are very relaxed and physical with each other with a few exceptions.

We don't smooch or hold hands at school events, but I've never seen a teacher show physical affection to their spouse at a school event.

I teach in a small town, and Pete's mother lives in another small town. There are very few kids and parents who haven't seen us fighting in the grocery store, and yesterday, I saw one ex student at a natural foods store and another couple of ex students getting frozen yogurt.

In general, we are a silly pair, often singing and dancing and laughing.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:14 PM   #25
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In general, we are a silly pair, often singing and dancing and laughing.
Now that, I can get behind. We do a lot of that. Especially when in public with the kids. Because they are teenagers and very fun to embarrass.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:02 PM   #26
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I live in the north west corner of Louisiana,It is still heavly counted as the bible belt.Now in this year of 2013 it is a bit less likely to get you in trouble for PDA's if you are glbt but not by much.We have three gay bars hear where anything go's,but in public full on spit swaping will get you some big frowns and most probly a word or two from someone that also includes the stright folks around hear.Recently I was in a store where a young stright couple were in the check out line makeing out big time leaveing nothing to the immaganation,they got called down by the manager who saw them as wellas several of the customers in line.Personaly I have no trouble with PDA's as in hand holding,keeping my hand in the small of her back or even sneaking a kiss or two.I am an affectoniate person to a falt I just beleave in treating her like a lady at all times.I also can be a rascally old devile when the time is right...once I was discusing this subject with a group at a pflag meting about how people really form judgements about gay people.I told them being yourself is fantastik,pda's and behavior in public is ok at the right time but there is no substitute for class with good behavior no matter who you are.
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:28 AM   #27
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Sometimes scary ones.

With my long-term ex butch, if I held her hand or her arm; it was much worse. She always was called sir at first, until they saw her bosoms-then, you could almost see the rage cross their faces, as they came to the realization that she was female.
This! Exactly Anya. In the case of my ex-butch (nearly 20 years ago now), she had very small breasts and never bothered with any kind of bra. She was a bus driver and the number of people who initially thought she was a man then realised she wasn't and were enraged - the ugly looks on their faces! I don't miss that (only because I've been single for quite some time).
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:52 PM   #28
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I haven't had to deal with this much, yet, as I haven't had a lot of romantic experience since I started transitioning. However, I really don't care too much if people disapprove, if the right person is kissing me. As far as I am concerned, if they start complaining, I'll baptize them at the nearest source of water.
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:42 PM   #29
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I LOVE touching people. Luckily, I am from a place where it is very acceptable to touch people (people kiss friends and colleagues on the cheek to greet and regularly hug people hello and goodbye) Actually, NOT touching people is considered sort of rude around here.

HOWEVER, there still can be the clenchy reaction to an obvious couple smooching hello or walking down the street hand in hand. I have only ever had ONE very rude experience with an Ex in Texas when we got spit on and followed by a guy who really needed a better thesaurus, but in general I have to say I have been lucky to battle nothing more than the occasional dirty look when I hold hands or snuggle up in a movie theater.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:52 PM   #30
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My wife is not very touchy feelie in public partially because she is a very private person, but also because she has had the crap kicked out of her and her car keyed in the past for being Butch.

We have been together for going on 9 years and it has been difficult for me at times, as I am very affectionate and love for others to know she is my Butch. She is hesitant to show much affection in public still, but she has gotten much better. She will now hold my hand and touch me more in public, if she feels she is in a safe space. She shows her care for me in other ways, hand at my back, carrying packages, opening doors for me, etc. She is getting more comfortable also. I think it has helped that our city is now so large, with many college campuses, and younger Urbanites, who are fine with LGBT people, so they don't bat an eyelash when they see two men or women holding hands. We see it around town more and more everyday.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:48 PM   #31
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Great topic and like the comments. For the most part, as an FTM, society perceives me as a biomale. However, one can never be too careful. So, I still think of this. But as a butch I lived it. Just a few points to add.
The one fact that I always come back to (remimd myself of )when it comes to PDA's... one, that i will not always be with her. in addition, any crazy, insecure or jealous person or persons could be watching US. That is what gets to me.
So, i would refrain in certain sitiuations from showing public affection. People would see US together and remember her and I was not always with her.
And really, a fight wouldnt bother me. I know cause i rather enjoy punching people like that.
The part that would freak me out was and is this...I would tell myself...they want to fight you..but, what would they do to her if they got her alone? Not pretty. Fights are nothing compaired to what they would want to do to her.

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Old 07-30-2013, 08:46 AM   #32
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Great topic and like the comments. For the most part, as an FTM, society perceives me as a biomale. However, one can never be too careful. So, I still think of this. But as a butch I lived it. Just a few points to add.
The one fact that I always come back to (remimd myself of )when it comes to PDA's... one, that i will not always be with her. in addition, any crazy, insecure or jealous person or persons could be watching US. That is what gets to me.
So, i would refrain in certain sitiuations from showing public affection. People would see US together and remember her and I was not always with her.
And really, a fight wouldnt bother me. I know cause i rather enjoy punching people like that.
The part that would freak me out was and is this...I would tell myself...they want to fight you..but, what would they do to her if they got her alone? Not pretty. Fights are nothing compaired to what they would want to do to her.
good point...but it brings to mind other things that I have listened to from others I know. Those things you worried about happening to her...would be the sort of people that would do the same thing to a butch/tg/ftm (that has not completed surgery).

Just want to put that out there.. just because a person is masculine by nature does not protect them from that sort of vile attack.

the movie...Boys Don't Cry...is a prime example
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:45 AM   #33
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There have been some great comments on this thread.

I'm pretty affectionate, maybe it's the Latino thing. And I'm lucky enough to live in a fairly open urban area, although I've had some not-so-great experiences with people yelling (and the occasional thing thrown from a car).

I don't think my affection stems from gender presentation as much as it's what I grew up with. I do think my surroundings at times, but more often than not am comfortable holding hands, putting my arm around her and depending on the environment kissing her.

There was one time when my spouse and I were walking in downtown Palo Alto (during the Prop 8 debacle). There was a street preacher bashing gay marriage, well, bashing gay anything. So my spouse and started making out right behind him, to much applause and cheers.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:47 AM   #34
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good point...but it brings to mind other things that I have listened to from others I know. Those things you worried about happening to her...would be the sort of people that would do the same thing to a butch/tg/ftm (that has not completed surgery).

Just want to put that out there.. just because a person is masculine by nature does not protect them from that sort of vile attack.

the movie...Boys Don't Cry...is a prime example
Very true. Lower surgery or not. Gay or straight. Rape happens to masculine
people and biomales too. I guess just to try and prove some sick point. Or maybe a biomale who likes males but won't admit it.

Sorry if I derailed the thread. But, my point is, there are nasty people out there and they don't wear a sign on their foreheads that let's me know who they are.
Too bad those nasty people don't get a manditory tattoo on their foreheads while incarcerated. If, in fact, they do get caught.

On a lighter note,
One time, I was walkin hand and hand with my very feminine ex. She lived in a well known lesbian neighborhood. Some dudes driving by real slow yelled out, "dyke" and maybe something else. Well, we turned around, holding hands and she immediatedly yelled," suck my dick ***hole". It was awesome.

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Old 07-30-2013, 10:43 AM   #35
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So, now I look around..see what I am dealing with...assess the safety and think about those I am with, then deal with it in the best interest of my family.

If my partner is with me and/or the kids..then their safety comes first and for most. So, my pride and F*** you attitude needs to be placed aside.
I really like and agree with what you shared. That is why I shared. Instinctually, I think it is harder to turn the other cheek and walk on. But, when I look at the big picture, tomorrow is more important. That's a win.
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:29 PM   #36
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My partner of 16 years had an advantage, he walked with a cane most of the time, or held my arm to avoid falling. We did not do any PDA past that point.

Another person I was paired with for a short time, I could not keep my hands off. However, it was confined to hanging on her, holding her arm at grocery stores or kissing her shoulder. I'm short, can't reach her lips. Unless on tiptoe. Sometimes we got looks, but since she is taller, stronger, tougher than most Bio males it's usually smiles.

But not around family, especially Grandmother.

The staff at our favorite places to eat thought we were cute together.
But that said we live in a tourist area, and she is good at spotting bad situations at a distance. Regardless of who you are, it is prudent to be aware of your surroundings.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:08 PM   #37
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I feel that I am a very affectionate person, and I love to express it. However for me I struggle with PDA past a certain line. I don't like attention, and I do not like to induce awkwardness or rudeness. I enjoy holding hands and a peck here or there. But I do not think that we need to be up on each other, in each other's faces, or excessively kissing. I feel that some of those forms of expression are territorial and show offy (may not be a real word), and I don't go for it.....

I think we all have different love languages and interpretations of those expressions....

just my .02

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:36 AM   #38
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I don't define holding hands or giving a quick kiss PDA. PDA to me is making out or something that a teenager might do.

It is not unusual for me to hold my partner's hand when I am walking through a parking lot, walking down main street looking at shops, etc. I give her a quick kiss hello when I am meeting her somewhere (restaurant, body shop, anywhere public you may need to meet your partner).

I don't even notice if it makes people uncomfortable. I don't look. I don't care. 20 years ago when I was going to get my ass kicked for walking down the street holding my girlfriend's hand I didn't do it. Now? Unless I am in a place where I need to be concerned, I don't really give a shit.

I think that after years of being a queer you can quickly size up a situation to know if holding hands/quick kiss is safe. I don't think I even think about it anymore, just shift to not touching if needed. But, that is very rare nowadays. Unless I have to worry about our safety, OR I think that holding hands will create an extended uncomfortable social situation for me or TF, I don't give a shit.

I would suggest that for people who are weird about touching in safe areas, that they are struggling with some internalized homophobia, or are emotionally carrying with them some past trauma (being hurt) that they can't shake. No judgement on that, just a thought.

Side note: For reference, I would guestimate that 75%-85% of the people in our area feel some discomfort when they see us holding hands (unless I am passing). It is very unusual to see a gay couple holding hands in our area (I don't think I have ever seen it except for on the local college campus).
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:59 PM   #39
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I would suggest that for people who are weird about touching in safe areas, that they are struggling with some internalized homophobia, or are emotionally carrying with them some past trauma (being hurt) that they can't shake. No judgement on that, just a thought.
Nah. Oh I have plenty of past trauma but none related to hand holding. I just don't like it as much as other folks do.

Just because someone doesn't like something that you (general) do, doesn't make that person wounded or phobic in some degree. Some folks are just more touchy feely and some like to receive their touch differently than others.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:14 PM   #40
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Nah. Oh I have plenty of past trauma but none related to hand holding. I just don't like it as much as other folks do.

Just because someone doesn't like something that you (general) do, doesn't make that person wounded or phobic in some degree. Some folks are just more touchy feely and some like to receive their touch differently than others.
Gemme, you misunderstood.

To clarify: I was saying that a possible reason that a person who is typically affectionate in ALL OTHER environments but in SAFE Non-Gay places do NOT touch their partner, perhpas one or two things are going on:
1) They have been gay bashed -verbally or other (this is what i meant by trauma), s0 they area bit gun shy.
2) They are ashamed and/or embarrassed by their sexually (this is whar i meant by internalized homophobia)

I read the coversation to be about people being different in their displays of affection when they are in situations where they could be judged for their sexuality.

Does this make more sense?
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