2020 Presidential Election

[Cin]

I don't know whether Biden sexually assaulted Reade or not, I tend to believe the woman when accusations are made, but there has been some credible confusion regarding this incident. However, the more I read, the more I understand that whether or not Reade had the courage to call it sexual assault when she reported it, she told plenty of people what happened. And the only thing reticence on the part of abuse victims indicate is that they have a strong survival instinct.The person who will be most traumatized and vilified by this allegation is Reade. I can't imagine any woman wanting to go through something like this for fun.

No woman can believe, me too movement or not, that the cost of pointing out politically powerful men's sexual transgressions will be higher for the man than for the woman. The cost is always much more for the woman. And imagine what the cost will be in this political moment considering what is at stake for this presidential election.

Even if the process by which Biden was vetted for VP did not turn up Reade's allegation or any hint that she ever made one, I am certain Biden's penchant for groping disguised as making a connection certainly would have. That's what Biden calls it, making a connection. Why they couldn't see the writing on the wall is a testament to the widely held belief that men do not need a woman's consent before they touch her. But regardless of what most men and some women think, it is not a benign connection if there is no consent on the part of the woman. But then making a benign connection is so not the point of inappropriate touching.

I know it would be asking too much to expect a team of lawyers engaging in an in-depth vetting process of a potential candidate for vice president to understand that unwanted touching is an expression of power and the persistent habit of coming up behind women (in some cases complete strangers) and smelling their hair, massaging their faces, rubbing their shoulders, touching noses or foreheads or putting your hand on their thighs is deeply offensive, inappropriate and more than a little creepy. Too bad though. Perhaps if the vetting process had found Biden's behavior a credible issue there would have been another choice for vice president and we would be in a different situation right now. Maybe we would have a candidate who didn't propose that touching women without consent is an act of empathy and something they just cannot help but engage in.

But that is not the case and as a woman who has experienced many different types of sexual abuse, I prefer unwanted touching thinly veiled as an empathetic interaction over rape so Biden trumps Trump in my book. But that's not the only reason to vote for Biden over Trump. I think that is clear to everyone. And although I never imagined myself believing this but at this particular time there are more important issues at stake. However that doesn't mean this allegation should not be investigated. Besides, I believe at this point the outcome of any investigation concerning either candidate on the democratic or republican side will not change anyone's mind about which candidate they are going to vote for. The line is more clearly drawn between democrat and republican than I have ever seen in my lifetime.I don't think there is any issue that can change people's minds. I mean no matter what Trump does his supporters remain constant. The agenda is more important that the candidate in this political climate, which is why someone like Trump has the upper hand when it shouldn't even be a contest. The republicans are better at keeping their agenda in the forefront regardless of all the white noise. Nothing deters them. Trump could shoot Dr. Anthony Fauci on national television and it wouldn't even give them pause. If the only choice is Trump or Biden, it doesn't matter what he has done or how mentally fit he is, the only choice is Biden. I know there is something off about that, but there it is. I don't see a way around it at this point.

[Martina]

Biden isn't as wretched a candidate as Clinton was, and now we know how bad Trump is. Plus we are weathering a global crisis with poor leadership. So I think Biden will win -- IF he isn't in serious cognitive decline. If he can't keep it together through the campaign, the Dems could lose. Again. Once again, the Centrist Dems will have fielded a losing candidate. That's the point. Clinton lost. Clinton lost because she was a bad candidate who ran a bad campaign. That's who the Centrists backed, and we got Trump.

Again, Biden isn't Clinton. And it's been a hellish three years under Trump, so if Biden can keep his wits about him, all polls indicate Trump will be gone. But it's an open question. Just how much has Biden declined, and how evident will it be? I honestly think the sexual assault allegations will not be a huge factor although I think they should be investigated. The Centrist Dems are showing what hypocrites they are re this, but maybe the ends justify the means here.

I voted Clinton last time. It was hard to do. I truly despise her politics. It will be easier to vote Biden unless he demonstrates that he is mentally incapable of doing the job. If he does, we are so fucked. I do not think Bernie has any plans to step in. I think the election will proceed. Although it looks like a shoe in for Biden now, if he really looks like he's mentally in decline, we will have Trump again.

And it will be thanks to Centrist Dems again. They lost it before, and they may lose it again.

[C0LLETTE]

OK, so now what?
Figure that Biden is mentally "deficient"?
Believe that he committed sexual assault?
Figure you've got a great candidate just waiting in the wings?

My own view is that unless countries are willing to elect women, they will forever be plagued by these types of accusations.

So what to do?
I suggest you design an "It's Disgusting Behaviour Scale". Anything close to "Zero" and we'll cut your nuts off
Anything close to 10 and we'll crucify you, wait 3 days and give you another shot at getting it right.

Otherwise, elect who you will, try not to get duped by venal corrupt men with fat fingers and then stand on two sides vilifying each other and screaming at each other about how dumb the other is.

But maybe the truth is that there is nothing exceptional about any of us, we just want someone else to take charge; we like to think we're smart enough to choose; then we shit on our choices...and that's how we roll.

[C0LLETTE]

I do not address any of my posts to anyone in particular. That's a quite general "you" in there. A rhetorical "you" if you will and I'm going to practise writing without it.

[Martina]

It truly is sad that Warren didn't do better. She ran a good campaign. I think her natural constituency just was more energized by Bernie. Bernie beat all the near progressives, and Biden beat the Centrists. Then the machine and the liberal press came out and made it too difficult for Bernie to win. Perhaps they would not have done that if the last two Democrats were Biden and Warren.

I get why wealthier voters and the establishment fear Bernie. They have good reason to. He represents meaningful change. I don't get why more people didn't support Warren. I really think sexism played a role. Maybe some of it was that they fielded a woman candidate last time and lost. It's too bad. I think Warren would have kicked Trump's ass in the general election.

As an aside, I don't give a rat's ass about electing a woman president. Remember Margaret Thatcher? It doesn't mean a thing to me. I was excited when an African American won. And I would have been excited if Buttigieg had won although I didn't support him. But women have long been the backbone of the Republican Party. Most white women are conservative. It will not mean a thing to me when a woman is elected. The first Native American or lgbtq person, that will be a great day.

[Cin]

The DNC, like most systems of power is hard to change from within. And they have the power and the means to push their candidate to the forefront. Most people, at least before this pandemic, are just trying to go to work everyday, take care of their family, pay their bills, feed their kids etc. The stress of everyday life has most of their attention. And barring a compete collapse of society they won't do much in depth independent thinking about who is running the show. They will vote for mainstream candidates that don't stray far from the party line. It's safe. Stay in the middle of the road and there will be less accidents. However, this is pretty close to a societal collapse and we need a very strong person in the oval office but if people can't do anything but follow like sheep and accept whatever they are fed by the DNC and the corporate media what can you do? Ultimately despite the power of centrist dems and the corporate media, people still have to make the choice to follow them. And they are! We are living in urgent times and have a small window for change still open at this time. The window is closing and as the societal and economic results of this pandemic becomes apparent people will be at the mercy of the elite in power who have agendas and they will have the opportunity to push them forward. In times of stress and upheaval people are always willing to trade freedom for the illusion of safety. We badly need someone worthy of our trust to lead us through these times.

[C0LLETTE]

Further to my previous post and point about electing women ...like them or not and whatever you think of their politics, no one ever accused Golda Meir of sexual assault. Come to think of it, Indira Gandhi was probably on the safe side too.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Cin

I don't know whether Biden sexually assaulted Reade or not, I tend to believe the woman when accusations are made, but there has been some credible confusion regarding this incident. However, the more I read, the more I understand that whether or not Reade had the courage to call it sexual assault when she reported it, she told plenty of people what happened. And the only thing reticence on the part of abuse victims indicate is that they have a strong survival instinct.The person who will be most traumatized and vilified by this allegation is Reade. I can't imagine any woman wanting to go through something like this for fun.

No woman can believe, me too movement or not, that the cost of pointing out politically powerful men's sexual transgressions will be higher for the man than for the woman. The cost is always much more for the woman. And imagine what the cost will be in this political moment considering what is at stake for this presidential election.

Even if the process by which Biden was vetted for VP did not turn up Reade's allegation or any hint that she ever made one, I am certain Biden's penchant for groping disguised as making a connection certainly would have. That's what Biden calls it, making a connection. Why they couldn't see the writing on the wall is a testament to the widely held belief that men do not need a woman's consent before they touch her. But regardless of what most men and some women think, it is not a benign connection if there is no consent on the part of the woman. But then making a benign connection is so not the point of inappropriate touching.

I know it would be asking too much to expect a team of lawyers engaging in an in-depth vetting process of a potential candidate for vice president to understand that unwanted touching is an expression of power and the persistent habit of coming up behind women (in some cases complete strangers) and smelling their hair, massaging their faces, rubbing their shoulders, touching noses or foreheads or putting your hand on their thighs is deeply offensive, inappropriate and more than a little creepy. Too bad though. Perhaps if the vetting process had found Biden's behavior a credible issue there would have been another choice for vice president and we would be in a different situation right now. Maybe we would have a candidate who didn't propose that touching women without consent is an act of empathy and something they just cannot help but engage in.

But that is not the case and as a woman who has experienced many different types of sexual abuse, I prefer unwanted touching thinly veiled as an empathetic interaction over rape so Biden trumps Trump in my book. But that's not the only reason to vote for Biden over Trump. I think that is clear to everyone. And although I never imagined myself believing this but at this particular time there are more important issues at stake. However that doesn't mean this allegation should not be investigated. Besides, I believe at this point the outcome of any investigation concerning either candidate on the democratic or republican side will not change anyone's mind about which candidate they are going to vote for. The line is more clearly drawn between democrat and republican than I have ever seen in my lifetime.I don't think there is any issue that can change people's minds. I mean no matter what Trump does his supporters remain constant. The agenda is more important that the candidate in this political climate, which is why someone like Trump has the upper hand when it shouldn't even be a contest. The republicans are better at keeping their agenda in the forefront regardless of all the white noise. Nothing deters them. Trump could shoot Dr. Anthony Fauci on national television and it wouldn't even give them pause. If the only choice is Trump or Biden, it doesn't matter what he has done or how mentally fit he is, the only choice is Biden. I know there is something off about that, but there it is. I don't see a way around it at this point.

Your post should have at least 5K likes (by now), because as a survivor of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and a survivor of domestic violence (by both male and female abusers), I understand your post and appreciate the time you took to articulate exactly the thoughts I have had on my mind for the past few years.


I have nothing more to add toward the post you've shared with us here, except to say that your air-tight argument is exactly what I wish other people could fathom. As a survivor of sexual assault, sexual harassment and a survivor of DV, I appreciate you greatly.

Thanks for your post, Cin.

[Baby_Yoda]

Originally Posted by Martina

Biden isn't as wretched a candidate as Clinton was, and now we know how bad Trump is. Plus we are weathering a global crisis with poor leadership. So I think Biden will win -- IF he isn't in serious cognitive decline. If he can't keep it together through the campaign, the Dems could lose. Again. Once again, the Centrist Dems will have fielded a losing candidate. That's the point. Clinton lost. Clinton lost because she was a bad candidate who ran a bad campaign. That's who the Centrists backed, and we got Trump.

Again, Biden isn't Clinton. And it's been a hellish three years under Trump, so if Biden can keep his wits about him, all polls indicate Trump will be gone. But it's an open question. Just how much has Biden declined, and how evident will it be? I honestly think the sexual assault allegations will not be a huge factor although I think they should be investigated. The Centrist Dems are showing what hypocrites they are re this, but maybe the ends justify the means here.

I voted Clinton last time. It was hard to do. I truly despise her politics. It will be easier to vote Biden unless he demonstrates that he is mentally incapable of doing the job. If he does, we are so fucked. I do not think Bernie has any plans to step in. I think the election will proceed. Although it looks like a shoe in for Biden now, if he really looks like he's mentally in decline, we will have Trump again.

And it will be thanks to Centrist Dems again. They lost it before, and they may lose it again.

Short of going to a majority wins voting system and having multiple candidates on the ballot, at this juncture, centrists are the majority in most states. Therefore, those of us that consider ourselves anywhere on the left need to back whichever democrat is on the ballot. That is why Clinton lost. Too many centrists either voted for a third party or did not vote at all because they did not like either candidate. Clinton might not have been a great choice, but she was a far better choice than who is in there now. If the progressives choose to act like the centrists during the next election and stay home, then we will have another four years of Trump.

Bernie is a great politician and his ideas are innovative and I agree with most of them. He is a bit erratic to make a good president though. His ideas need someone behind them with the tenacity to see them through and I don't see that in Bernie. Maybe that is not quite accurate though. Its more that I see him pushing for too much at once and not being able to see anything through to completion in his first term, which would be an open invitation for the republicans to get someone else in office again.

Bernie would have made an excellent VP under Harris had she made it on to the ballot. They could have evened each other out I think. Harris being more methodical in her approach and Bernie always pushing for more. I can truly see a whole lot being accomplished under those two. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen so we must accept what is happening and ensure the most favorable outcome possible at this point in time occurs.

[Martina]

Hillary did not lose because of third party voters. Many more than predicted voted Democrat. The votes she counted on and didn't get were women in the Midwest who had voted Obama but voted Trump in 2016 and urban African Americans in Milwaukee and Detroit who didn't vote. She didn't even campaign in Wisconsin. People use that as shorthand for how she lost the race. She didn't fund the ground game when a lot of people, including her husband, told her there was trouble.

Third party voters were not a factor. You can look at the numbers and say oh if she had gotten those, she would have won. But you can say oh well if she had gotten Christians in Texas, she would have won. Those votes were never hers. The more mainstream progressive Democrats and Bernie supporters voted for Clinton. What's more, they came out in surprising numbers to do so.

[homoe]

Ad from the Lincoln Project....

[dark_crystal]

I was terrified by 3rd party voters in 2016, to the point that i wrote about it when i started this thread



But i am closer than i've been since 2000 (Nader) to doing it. I was on the fence about whether the dem establishment rigged the 2016 primary against Bernie but they sure as heck rigged THIS one

[BullDog]

Nothing has been rigged against Sanders. Millions and millions of more Americans voted for Biden than Sanders because they think Biden has a much better chance to beat Trump. You dismiss the will of millions of Democratic voters. Most do not agree with Sanders or think he can win. The same was true in 2016. Nothing was rigged against him.

Sanders supporters are not the majority of the Democratic party. That's it. Democratic Party voters get to decide who their nominee is. No one is rigging it.

Sanders has helped to fuel conspiracy theories which make people distrust the voting process when things don't go their way. Congrats Sanders. What an American hero.

All this nonsense about things being rigged is such b.s.

[dark_crystal]

Democrats are not the majority of democratic party voters, either, i don't think. The majority are "lesser of two evils"

[Martina]

Biden is slipping in the polls.

[BullDog]

Every recent poll I've seen has Biden leading - especially in the swing states.

Here's the latest one I saw today.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...legrounds-poll

[Martina]

Slipping. Not behind.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile..../idUSKBN22I005

[BullDog]

Okay. I hadn't seen that one poll but it's just one poll and I'm not worried. I also cited a poll that looked good for the swing states - it also is just one poll at one point in time. I've seen other swing state polls that are similar and those are the polls I'm paying the most attention to. The bottom line is it comes down to the swing states.

Anyway, there's a long way to go. With the horrible way that Trump is handling the crisis and all the states that are opening up prematurely, I don't think Trump is going to be looking too good. But I definitely am not taking anything for granted.

[homoe]

I personally think polls are a lot of malarkey and I don't waste my time reading them!

[C0LLETTE]

How much can polls mean when the only people who respond to them are the people who like responding to polls.