Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[BullDog]

The rationales people use for their voting or non-voting continue to amaze me. Whether people like it or not there are 2 major political parties in the United States- Democratic and Republican. So if you do not vote for a Democrat, either because you decide not to vote as a "protest," vote for a third political party (which has no chance in hell to win and I've never been convinced that having more than 2 parties would necessarily in and of itself make things better), or vote for Republican party- in any of those 3 scenarios you are voting Republican.

I don't understand the concept of "protest" votes and non-votes. The Republicans are happy to pocket them. They also happily take the votes from the Republican Log Cabin people and at the same time ban them from their national conventions and actively work against gay rights.

The differences between the Democratic and Republican parties when it comes to queer rights, womens rights, people of color, animal rights- and the list goes on- couldn't be any more stark. I've posted the 2 party platforms numerous times. You could put the differences on flashing billboards across the country and I swear it still wouldn't compute. I seriously don't get it.

So don't vote for Obama. It's your choice. You won't be getting a more animal friendlier political party in power. That I can assure you of.

p.s I agree with Organic- it's just a distraction.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by suebee

June, my comments weren't aimed at you personally. You may have been the only person to have made the comparison to a human child on this thread, but it's a comment I've heard again and again. OF COURSE you'd save your child first. My point is that humans have been comporting themselves in a far too arrogant manner for far too long. It's destroying our planet. It's used as an excuse to do absolutely HORRIFIC things to animals. It's time we stepped up to the plate and behaved like the itellectually and morally superior creatures we (as a race) make ourselves out to be.

Absofuckinglutely!!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by suebee

An animal is not a human child, therefore it's life is worth less? Human arrogance. Look around and see what THAT'S done to our planet.

Actually, as a matter of reality, we DO have a hierarchy whether we like it or not. Like June, if my house caught fire and I could ONLY save either my granddaughter or my dog, I would save my granddaughter. Anyone who says otherwise is almost certainly lying and if they aren't, then they may need a reset of their moral compass. If it were a question of my family starving or eating the neighbor's chickens (with his permission, of course, otherwise it would be theft) then I feel like chicken tonight! Am I valuing the life of my granddaughter over that of my dog? Yes. Does that mean I don't *really* love my dog? no.

As far as 'what that has done to our planet', you mean what has been done that hasn't been topped by, say, very large rocks periodically striking the planet at several multiples of the speed of sound? Are we doing damage? Yes. Should we stop? Yes. But are we really on course to do worse than, say, the K-T extinction where a rock the size of Manhattan struck the Earth at around 30K mph and killed off half of all sea life and about 70% of all land life? No. That doesn’t mean that we should be sanguine about the extinction of tigers (and it is, at this point, almost certainly a fait accompli that tigers are going extinct) but it does mean that some perspective is in order. Human beings have been hunting, killing and eating animals since before we were Homo sapiens. We've been at it since *at least* the time of Australopithecus. Those canines you have in your mouth aren't there for decoration and they aren't vestigial like the wisdom teeth. In fact, our transition away from a plant-based diet to a mixed plant-meat based diet is written all over our bodies. Wisdom teeth used to be useful when we ate more plants, they were a third set of molars for grinding up plant material. Our brain size is ENTIRELY explained by meat-eating (your brain is very energy hungry and the only diet that would support the explosion of our brain size in the ancestral environment was a protein-heavy (therefore meat-based) one). Our eye-hand coordination was adaptive for hunting.

We are, whether we like it or not, apex predators. Again, that doesn't mean that animal cruelty is acceptable but it *does* mean that this idea that we have, at any point in our evolutionary history, lived in peace and harmony with other animals is a fallacy. The last time anything in our evolutionary ancestry remotely lived a life resembling that myth was when we were prey animals and the last time THAT circumstance obtained was more than 15 million years ago. This idea that we are the only animals that do violence for anything other than sustenance is also not true. Again, NONE of this is a defense of Mr. Vick or an argument in favor of animal cruelty. It is simply to say that somehow, we are supposed to be something more than the large-brained primate that we are is to argue for a fantasy and an inconsistent one at that. If you argue that we should know better than other animals then you are elevating us above the rest of the animal kingdom. If you argue that other animals aren't cruel or are only violent in pursuit of food you are falling into the Disney-fication of Nature (chimps, just to name one species amongst many, fight and kill over territory, mates, and because of rivalry and they do it in coalitions just like we do).

The truth is, suebee, that chances are you value the life of any random human being more than you value the life of any random species of rodent. That doesn't mean that one cares nothing at all for rodents (or any other phyla) but it does mean that, truth be told, if you could only save the life of a baby or a cat and you HAD to choose because the house is burning down, you'd pick the child. That isn't license for animal cruelty but it is a recognition of the reality of our moral instincts (and our morals, despite religious claims to the contrary, are instincts).

Vick - I have no use for him. He tortured, killed and ruined the lives of a great many of our fellow creatures. Fucker!

Can we take this to mean that you don't believe in redemption? One strike and you're out? I was not a fan of Mr. Vick before his conviction and I'm not a fan of Mr. Vick after his conviction. I am, however, a believer in redemption. Mr. Vick was arrested, tried, convicted and did time for his crime. His sentence was up and he was released and now he is trying to get his life back. Now, to some here, perhaps he should pay for the rest of his days. Perhaps some think he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NFL but I wonder if there is ANY job they would think he should be allowed to do. I doubt that there is.

You may have no use for him but Mr. Vick is still a human being, he still needs to eat, and he still deserves to be able to make some kind of a decent living doing something he is, I presume, competent at.

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Actually, as a matter of reality, we DO have a hierarchy whether we like it or not. Like June, if my house caught fire and I could ONLY save either my granddaughter or my dog, I would save my granddaughter. Anyone who says otherwise is almost certainly lying and if they aren't, then they may need a reset of their moral compass. If it were a question of my family starving or eating the neighbor's chickens (with his permission, of course, otherwise it would be theft) then I feel like chicken tonight! Am I valuing the life of my granddaughter over that of my dog? Yes. Does that mean I don't *really* love my dog? no.

As far as 'what that has done to our planet', you mean what has been done that hasn't been topped by, say, very large rocks periodically striking the planet at several multiples of the speed of sound? Are we doing damage? Yes. Should we stop? Yes. But are we really on course to do worse than, say, the K-T extinction where a rock the size of Manhattan struck the Earth at around 30K mph and killed off half of all sea life and about 70% of all land life? No. That doesn’t mean that we should be sanguine about the extinction of tigers (and it is, at this point, almost certainly a fait accompli that tigers are going extinct) but it does mean that some perspective is in order. Human beings have been hunting, killing and eating animals since before we were Homo sapiens. We've been at it since *at least* the time of Australopithecus. Those canines you have in your mouth aren't there for decoration and they aren't vestigial like the wisdom teeth. In fact, our transition away from a plant-based diet to a mixed plant-meat based diet is written all over our bodies. Wisdom teeth used to be useful when we ate more plants, they were a third set of molars for grinding up plant material. Our brain size is ENTIRELY explained by meat-eating (your brain is very energy hungry and the only diet that would support the explosion of our brain size in the ancestral environment was a protein-heavy (therefore meat-based) one). Our eye-hand coordination was adaptive for hunting.

We are, whether we like it or not, apex predators. Again, that doesn't mean that animal cruelty is acceptable but it *does* mean that this idea that we have, at any point in our evolutionary history, lived in peace and harmony with other animals is a fallacy. The last time anything in our evolutionary ancestry remotely lived a life resembling that myth was when we were pray animals and the last time THAT circumstance obtained was more than 15 million years ago. This idea that we are the only animals that do violence for anything other than sustenance is also not true. Again, NONE of this is a defense of Mr. Vick or an argument in favor of animal cruelty. It is simply to say that somehow, we are supposed to be something more than the large-brained primate that we are is to argue for a fantasy and an inconsistent one at that. If you argue that we should know better than other animals then you are elevating us above the rest of the animal kingdom. If you argue that other animals aren't cruel or are only violent in pursuit of food you are falling into the Disney-fication of Nature (chimps, just to name one species amongst many, fight and kill over territory, mates, and because of rivalry and they do it in coalitions just like we do).

The truth is, suebee, that chances are you value the life of any random human being more than you value the life of any random species of rodent. That doesn't mean that one cares nothing at all for rodents (or any other phyla) but it does mean that, truth be told, if you could only save the life of a baby or a cat and you HAD to choose because the house is burning down, you'd pick the child. That isn't license for animal cruelty but it is a recognition of the reality of our moral instincts (and our morals, despite religious claims to the contrary, are instincts).



Can we take this to mean that you don't believe in redemption? One strike and you're out? I was not a fan of Mr. Vick before his conviction and I'm not a fan of Mr. Vick after his conviction. I am, however, a believer in redemption. Mr. Vick was arrested, tried, convicted and did time for his crime. His sentence was up and he was released and now he is trying to get his life back. Now, to some here, perhaps he should pay for the rest of his days. Perhaps some think he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NFL but I wonder if there is ANY job they would think he should be allowed to do. I doubt that there is.

You may have no use for him but Mr. Vick is still a human being, he still needs to eat, and he still deserves to be able to make some kind of a decent living doing something he is, I presume, competent at.

Cheers
Aj

lol I don't think we as a species are responsible for everything. No. There is a hierarchy - obviously. There is also the very natural instinct to preserve your own species first. NONE of that Aj, absolves of of responsibility for what we have done AND I might add - for what we have not done. This entire planet is made up of interdependant life forms. Many believe that animals are here to serve us. That view point is not only arrogant, but incredibly short-sighted. All creatures have to do what they have to do to survive. Unfortunately humans excell at cruelty just for the fun of it.

I think Vick is a fucker. That's my opinion. It's got nothing to do with redemption (which I don't happen to believe he has achieved, btw). It's got more to do with what he actually did. His self-serving statement a few weeks ago saying that he'd like to have another dog - and I'm paraphrasing here - so that people could see that he's changed - didn't impress me at all. He said it was hard to explain to his child why they couldn't have a dog. He said he misses having a dog. He didn't say anything to make me believe he's learned anything about the value of another creature's life.

[dreadgeek]

I'm curious, is there anything he could have said that would convince you that he was truly repentant? if so, what?

Originally Posted by suebee

lol I don't think we as a species are responsible for everything. No. There is a hierarchy - obviously. There is also the very natural instinct to preserve your own species first. NONE of that Aj, absolves of of responsibility for what we have done AND I might add - for what we have not done. This entire planet is made up of interdependant life forms. Many believe that animals are here to serve us. That view point is not only arrogant, but incredibly short-sighted. All creatures have to do what they have to do to survive. Unfortunately humans excell at cruelty just for the fun of it.

I think Vick is a fucker. That's my opinion. It's got nothing to do with redemption (which I don't happen to believe he has achieved, btw). It's got more to do with what he actually did. His self-serving statement a few weeks ago saying that he'd like to have another dog - and I'm paraphrasing here - so that people could see that he's changed - didn't impress me at all. He said it was hard to explain to his child why they couldn't have a dog. He said he misses having a dog. He didn't say anything to make me believe he's learned anything about the value of another creature's life.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'm curious, is there anything he could have said that would convince you that he was truly repentant? if so, what?

First off, I want to note that "repentant" is your word, not mine. If you're asking for specific words - I don't purport to know how another human being will express himself. As I said above, what I heard in his statement online didn't address whether or not he has learned that another creature's life has intrinsic value.

[BullDog]

I don't condone what Michael Vick has done, but I do find it interesting what people choose to focus on. I don't see a lot of protest over Ben Roethlisberger who was suspended by the NFL. Maybe there wasn't enough evidence against him. I don't know. He is of course a white quarterback.

Here's a list of players who have been suspended by the NFL since 2006. Many of them have to do with domestic violence. Again, I don't hear a lot of hue and cry about them. If you were to go back earlier than 2006 you will find even more news stories about football players assaulting and beating up women- wives, girl friends, women met in bars, etc.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5121614

NFL Conduct Violation Suspensions

The 16 players suspended under the personal conduct policy by NFL commissioner Roger Goodell since he took office in 2006:

• Rocky Bernard (assault, 1 game)

• Michael Boley (domestic abuse, 1 game)

• Fred Evans (fight with police, 2 games)

• Chris Henry (various arrests, 8 games)

• Larry Johnson (simple assault, 1 game)

• Tank Johnson (2-month jail term, 8 games)

• Pacman Jones (various arrests, 16 games, 6 games)

• Marshawn Lynch (weapons violation, 3 games)

• Ricky Manning (felony assault, 1 game)

• Brandon Marshall (various, including assaulting girlfriend, 1 game)

• Bryant McKinnie (street fight, 4 games)

• Rob Reynolds (domestic disturbance, 16 games)

• Ben Roethlisberger (misconduct-no charges/arrests, 6 games)

• Donte' Stallworth (DUI-vehicular homicide, 16 games)

• Fabian Washington (domestic violence, 1 game)

• Michael Vick (dogfighting, 2 games)

[Tucker]

I say give the man a nice cat.

[Sachita]

June mentioned that not everyone is raised the same or has the same perception. This is very true. Living in the south it blows my mind what people deem as acceptable treatment of animals. It was only this year they passed a law forbidding dogs to be tied. I keep flyers in my van and won't think twice about knocking on a door or raising hell in the defense of a helpless animal. I wouldn't even leave my pig without an insulated stall, plenty of hay and heat lamp in 30 degree weather but you have a whole lot of people who think an old dog house is just fine.

I board dogs. Most of you know this and on one of my forms is a release for emergency treatment. Some people put 1500.00 others 100.00. There is no amount of money when it comes to my dogs. I can't support breeding and have lots of friends who spend thousands of dollars on dogs when there are so many homeless animals. I'm not passing judgement just proving that we all have a different mindset, HOWEVER in the case of Mr. Vick it was clearly abuse no matter how you slice that pie.

Now this makes me think of a very good vegan friend who wants to breed race horses. She doesnt eat animals because morally thinks its cruel. This rattled the fuck out of me. I asked her if she ever did any research on animal abuse in horse breed/racing. Also why she felt it was ok to train an animal for a sport that supports an even bigger problem "gambling". People should be allowed to do what they want but is it ok to allow an animal to be used in a sport for gambling? Is it ok to train a work animal to be a service dog or herd animals? These are all clearly questions someone needs to ask and rather then choosing an answer that suits your agenda people should be more conscious when it comes to animals. Once my friend did her research she was floored. She had no idea but honestly she turned a blind eye, saw what suited her interest and not in the best interest of the whole picture involving horses.

The passion i'm displaying right now is not about Obama. Medusa is right... he;s the first one that actually did anything and it wasn't all lipservice. He walked into a major mess and still actually did something. I admit I was skeptical. BUT as someone else put- I want to see a democrat in office no matter what. My agenda here right now is fueled by yet another Michael Vick media show and that enough is enough. He should be punished. Laws should be tightened in the case of animal rights. Plain and simple. instead homeowners are having insurance canceled or must get rid of a beloved pet. Dog boarding facilities (not mine) won't take pit bulls or the insurance to take them or any aggressive breed is too high. So let's have another dose of this M.Vick media parade.

don't forgive him. put all these mother fuckers in jail. lol seriously. maybe then it will stop

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Tucker

I say give the man a nice cat.

Try and do some of that shit to a CAT and see what happens! My dogs won't even mess with my cats! lol

[Daywalker]

Forgiveness is essential in all our lives.





If we are to place any faith whatsoever in the importance of this in our own lives,
then we must acknowledge that it is essential in other peoples' lives.


With that said, if Prison time did not send any messages to Mr. Vick about
how wrong it was to use animals for wicked icky sport, then the Support
being offered up cannot possibly be genuine...as his
remorse would not be genuine.

Other than that, without being up close and personal in Mr. Vicks life,
I cannot make any further assessment of this article with great faith.

[Nat]

I think what Vick did was awful. But I also think if you eat meat you are most likely supporting animal cruelty. Anybody who chooses not to spay/neuter their animals is participating in behavior that leads to the killing of animals who end up at the pound.

I don't understand Obama's motivations but that extends beyond this decision. I do support the re-employment of those who have received criminal convictions and who have served their time.

As vile as Michael Vick's actions were, the inhumanity other football players have shown towards other humans (see bulldog's post) is also vile. The white racist reactions to Vick were also vile.

Most people in the US live in glass houses and have no business throwing stones when it comes to animal cruelty.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Now this makes me think of a very good vegan friend who wants to breed race horses. She doesnt eat animals because morally thinks its cruel. This rattled the fuck out of me. I asked her if she ever did any research on animal abuse in horse breed/racing. Also why she felt it was ok to train an animal for a sport that supports an even bigger problem "gambling". People should be allowed to do what they want but is it ok to allow an animal to be used in a sport for gambling? Is it ok to train a work animal to be a service dog or herd animals? These are all clearly questions someone needs to ask and rather then choosing an answer that suits your agenda people should be more conscious when it comes to animals. Once my friend did her research she was floored. She had no idea but honestly she turned a blind eye, saw what suited her interest and not in the best interest of the whole picture involving horses.

I don't know about gambling and won't waste a lot of time on that subject. But as far as using animals as working animals--herding, etc.--yes I think that is absolutely acceptable. I own a sheepdog, it is clear that his instincts are to herd. Particularly with the animals that we have co-evolved with and that we have bred into their modern forms (dogs, cats, horses, chickens, etc.) we absolutely should continue with employing them in the ways we bred them to be employed. We, as a species, created the modern dog and most of our dogs would not, in point of fact, do well if humans disappeared. Dogs need humans at this point. Anyone who has lived with a dog knows that we have created a breed that wants to socialize with us and is sensitively tuned to human facial expressions and vocal subtleties.

The passion i'm displaying right now is not about Obama. Medusa is right... he;s the first one that actually did anything and it wasn't all lipservice. He walked into a major mess and still actually did something. I admit I was skeptical. BUT as someone else put- I want to see a democrat in office no matter what. My agenda here right now is fueled by yet another Michael Vick media show and that enough is enough. He should be punished. Laws should be tightened in the case of animal rights. Plain and simple. instead homeowners are having insurance canceled or must get rid of a beloved pet. Dog boarding facilities (not mine) won't take pit bulls or the insurance to take them or any aggressive breed is too high. So let's have another dose of this M.Vick media parade.

How long of a prison sentence does he have to serve? He was *already* punished.

don't forgive him.

Sorry, I just can't sign on to the idea that yet ANOTHER black man should spend the rest of his natural days behind bars or be utterly unable to make any kind of living because he ran afoul of the law. We do that quite enough already, how many black men have to be locked up for very large parts of their lives before America is satisfied that it has done enough? He did 23 months in prison--not some county lock up but *prison*. How long does he have to serve? Let's also keep in mind that the ONLY reason he didn't serve longer is because he is a celebrity. The next time you're out around town, take a look at a random black man, now imagine him convicted of the same crime that Mr. Vick committed and imagine what his prison sentence would look like. We're talking a minimum of 5 to 10 years. Like I said, America is already what I consider overzealous and unbounded in its enthusiasm for locking up black men for the term of their natural lives. I'm not sure that Mr. Vick should have to rejoin the 850,000 black men already in prison. (That's one in every nine.)

Cheers
Aj

[Mister Bent]

Bear with me, because I'm on cold meds and my brain isn't cooperating fully.

The OP was framed around Obama's endorsement of the notion that the Philadelphia Eagles gave an ex-con a "second chance" and that in some way perhaps Michael Vick has turned his life around.

Tangential dialog has revolved around whether or not Vick is repentant and whether redemption is possible. Because the issue involves dogs, it is one fraught with emotion, in addition to the political ramifications. I am passionate about dogs. I have worked in rescue, including the recent fostering of a pit bull terrier.

I agree with Organic, from a political standpoint, this is a sideshow meant to distract us. As far as whether Vick truly regrets what he did, outside of how it sidelined his life and career, how can we ever really know? I don't believe we can.

I also agree that he deserves a chance to work, to support his family, pay off his attorneys, but not in a job where men are so often elevated to hero status. Not many ex-cons get out of prison and make millions. Not many can afford to pay their outstanding legal fees. Not many could have afforded lawyers like Vick's.

These discussions about Vick always leave me thinking the same thing, which is that while Vick's crimes were heinous, the larger issue is the mentality - the psychopathy behind them. What people seem to not understand is that the kind of brutality Vick sanctioned and actively participated in is the thing of which we should be wary. He is more than a criminal, he is an abuser. I feel the same is true of the players Bulldog listed, including Ben Roethlisberger, quarterback of my beloved Steelers.

This type of behavior is rarely a one time incident. Whether culturally formed or otherwise, it speaks of a mind wired to accept brutal behavior as possible and perhaps even necessary. It's beyond simply the issue of animal cruelty to me.

I wish Obama hadn't said it, but he did, so fuck the politics. Vick didn't hold up a convenience store, he's not simply an ex-con. He engaged in systematic abuse, of which he took a hands on role. I simply do not hold to the belief that abusers change.

[Nat]

Maybe football is a sport where being an abuser is advantageous to the game.

Maybe subjecting yourself and your own body to injury and ritualized violence as a career - and for the entertainment of others - makes life seem cheap.

Reading about what he did - I tend to think he's wrong in the head. But maybe America is wrong in the head for deifying sports figures in the first place. Sacrificing your body for money is a strange trade - why is it glorious when a man does it?

[Sachita]

sorry typing one-handing lol

yes I agree with animals that work and treated properly.

and I also think you're right that he was punished and it should be enough, right? I agree with this but I am just exhausted at the media on this. I'm overly sensitive and had a knee jerk reaction. He did his time and we, even the president can move on. I have not done the research so forgive but I'd like to see Vick and Obama working together on setting a strong example. Now that would get a hell yeah from me but honestly I doubt I will ever be able to forgive him for what he allowed to happen to helpless animals. No ever.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't know about gambling and won't waste a lot of time on that subject. But as far as using animals as working animals--herding, etc.--yes I think that is absolutely acceptable. I own a sheepdog, it is clear that his instincts are to herd. Particularly with the animals that we have co-evolved with and that we have bred into their modern forms (dogs, cats, horses, chickens, etc.) we absolutely should continue with employing them in the ways we bred them to be employed. We, as a species, created the modern dog and most of our dogs would not, in point of fact, do well if humans disappeared. Dogs need humans at this point. Anyone who has lived with a dog knows that we have created a breed that wants to socialize with us and is sensitively tuned to human facial expressions and vocal subtleties.



How long of a prison sentence does he have to serve? He was *already* punished.



Sorry, I just can't sign on to the idea that yet ANOTHER black man should spend the rest of his natural days behind bars or be utterly unable to make any kind of living because he ran afoul of the law. We do that quite enough already, how many black men have to be locked up for very large parts of their lives before America is satisfied that it has done enough? He did 23 months in prison--not some county lock up but *prison*. How long does he have to serve? Let's also keep in mind that the ONLY reason he didn't serve longer is because he is a celebrity. The next time you're out around town, take a look at a random black man, now imagine him convicted of the same crime that Mr. Vick committed and imagine what his prison sentence would look like. We're talking a minimum of 5 to 10 years. Like I said, America is already what I consider overzealous and unbounded in its enthusiasm for locking up black men for the term of their natural lives. I'm not sure that Mr. Vick should have to rejoin the 850,000 black men already in prison. (That's one in every nine.)

Cheers
Aj

[Corkey]

While I have no use for Vick and am NOT a fan of his, what the President did, I wish he would do for perhaps the woman (generic) who lost her job and has kids to take care of, a mortgage and is in debit up to her arm pits. Vick has celebrity, the woman doesn't. It is PR pure and simple and I'm not falling for it. I see that he is trying to prop up a young man and give him a new start, but the woman, where is her new start.

[julieisafemme]

Here is an update on some of the dogs from Vicks property who were lucky enough to end up at Best Friends.

http://www.bestfriends.org/vickdogs/

Obama still has my vote. I don't though understand what would drive him to use this case to highlight the issues ex-cons face when coming out of prison.

[SnackTime]

Originally Posted by Sachita

I board dogs. Most of you know this and on one of my forms is a release for emergency treatment. Some people put 1500.00 others 100.00. There is no amount of money when it comes to my dogs. I can't support breeding and have lots of friends who spend thousands of dollars on dogs when there are so many homeless animals. I'm not passing judgement just proving that we all have a different mindset, HOWEVER in the case of Mr. Vick it was clearly abuse no matter how you slice that pie.

Now this makes me think of a very good vegan friend who wants to breed race horses. She doesnt eat animals because morally thinks its cruel. This rattled the fuck out of me. I asked her if she ever did any research on animal abuse in horse breed/racing. Also why she felt it was ok to train an animal for a sport that supports an even bigger problem "gambling". People should be allowed to do what they want but is it ok to allow an animal to be used in a sport for gambling? Is it ok to train a work animal to be a service dog or herd animals? These are all clearly questions someone needs to ask and rather then choosing an answer that suits your agenda people should be more conscious when it comes to animals. Once my friend did her research she was floored. She had no idea but honestly she turned a blind eye, saw what suited her interest and not in the best interest of the whole picture involving horses.

The passion i'm displaying right now is not about Obama. Medusa is right... he;s the first one that actually did anything and it wasn't all lipservice. He walked into a major mess and still actually did something. I admit I was skeptical. BUT as someone else put- I want to see a democrat in office no matter what. My agenda here right now is fueled by yet another Michael Vick media show and that enough is enough. He should be punished. Laws should be tightened in the case of animal rights. Plain and simple. instead homeowners are having insurance canceled or must get rid of a beloved pet. Dog boarding facilities (not mine) won't take pit bulls or the insurance to take them or any aggressive breed is too high. So let's have another dose of this M.Vick media parade.

don't forgive him. put all these mother fuckers in jail. lol seriously. maybe then it will stop

In my honest opinion, training a work animal to be a service animal or herder is not even close to be on the same level as what is being talked about in this thread. I have an Australian shepherd and it is in her nature to herd anything and everything (ask anyone that has ever met her...LOL).

I know there are at least a few counties here in Tennessee that have banned the pit bull breed. A few weeks ago, one of my friends told me that her son had to get rid of a pit bull (he found or it was given to him) because their homeowner's insurance.

[katsarecool]

Not much left to be said about this story as it pretty well has been covered here. As much as I love animals I am sticking to my support of our President and will be voting for him again in 2012!