Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

why? to cut. to hurt. to demean. to humiliate.

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

this is not rocket science. It is not ok to be mean. (period, no comma, no and, no except, no but.) Just one sentence: It is not ok to be mean.

how can we honor each other in that process?

Ya know I just gotta vent
I am not smarter or wiser or better than anyone else
WAKE UP people
sometimes a body just has to shut up
close their mouths
keep their thoughts to themselves
we can not read others minds
we don't know their intent
AND if you think you do know, question your own god complex
humans are complex
sometimes we don't even know WHY we do the things we do
how do we honor each other?
my gosh be nice
accept others just like you want to be accepted
assume the best about each other not the worst

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if it is a protective thing, cause lemme tell you there are a few times I wanted to go in and drag Grant out of a thread cause of how I felt.

My dynamics with him say I can, I don't because his voice is strong and important and should be heard

Just like anyone elses...

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

[SuperFemme]

I have a lot I want to say, but my fever is around 102 right now and I am having a hard time forming cognitive thoughts.

My favorite thoughts swirling around in my head right now have to do with hula hoops and assuming the best about people, not the worst.

I think as Femmes we have a better ability to lift each other up when the chips are down.

I want to be clear that everyones voice matters in this conversation. We are all part of this community sans the fences, and are all inter-connected in one way or another. So our voices matter.

I'm going to lay down now, but I'll be back with thoughts on hula hoops and assuming the best tomorrow.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

Thanks for the feedback, I think I understand the intent of the thread more now.

Thinking about my femme perspective...

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true.

This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread.

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

Ally is one of THOSE words for me. I've been flat out told I can't call myself a trans-ally by someone. You will see that I ran with that. NOT.

What is an ally?

Interesting. I just went to look up the definition which is "to unite or form a connection between." Which I sort of knew but I did not know that the word stems from a word that means to bind.

So is an ally someone you bind yourself with in order to prove a connection?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

I think they will talk about it in the other thread, about how we are influental.

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy.

Yeah, I'm rabidly protective. Oh, the posts I've started and deleted...and the ones I should have deleted but posted instead...

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

Good point, that is very true.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?

Annie, you're right. Good point.

Truly, I'm laughing super hard right now.

[Nat]

I've been rabidly protective before when I have seen a person cry over their frustration over a thread. I have a really strong protective streak. I have figured out (am figuring out still) that it's not appropriate in most cases for me to run with it when I'm feeling protective of other adults who are perfectly capable of having their own voices and using them.

I'm trying harder these days, if nothing else, to listen to, understand and support other femmes (and myself) at least to an equal degree as other IDs.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Nat

I've been rabidly protective before when I have seen a person cry over their frustration over a thread. I have a really strong protective streak. I have figured out (am figuring out still) that it's not appropriate in most cases for me to run with it when I'm feeling protective of other adults who are perfectly capable of having their own voices and using them.

I'm trying harder these days, if nothing else, to listen to, understand and support other femmes (and myself) at least to an equal degree as other IDs.

I'm thinking about this protective thing. My intent is not to remove agency from grown-ass adults, but to add to their already existing agency. To double the power.

[Oneida]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

Regarding this thread: a femme's influence on the friendships between butches and transmen" and hit a roadblock almost immediately.

Snow, why did Sam get "chastised" for using the word "balls" with respect to getting the conversation going? I really need to understand that before I can get into the spirit/participate in this thead.

Thanks

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by blush

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

Exactly ....
I don't believe in taking responsibility for others woes..
I also don't take on responsibility for those that do..

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Oneida

Regarding this thread: a femme's influence on the friendships between butches and transmen" and hit a roadblock almost immediately.

Snow, why did Sam get "chastised" for using the word "balls" with respect to getting the conversation going? I really need to understand that before I can get into the spirit/participate in this thead.

Thanks

Did I use the word balls????

Lemme go check all my posts ok before I answer this and honestly I need to make sure I don't piss a moderator off before answering this honeslty

Gimme a few to re read myself and stuff

Thanks

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

I have experienced it and seen it the one minute we date a butch then we date a transperson.

We are bitter after the break up and we dog the other gender presentation to make us feel good.

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)

Here is where I used the wording balls, and lemme tell you I had to go find my proverbial huevos for me to even start this thread, cause I am fully aware when I started the thread I knew that I may have my ass handed to me. I am also fully aware my loud mouth and my loud opinions and well that makes me unpopular and to be honest A LOT of assumptions are made about me. To be honest I don't even know what to say to you than be honest, I can't believe I am having to defend myself but I will.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I gotta ask

WTF with the balls comment?

This is what I said and here is why.

We ain't tight....

I don't like undertones, I don't like how someone uses my kid to make convo with me, I don't like manipulation, Sam and I aren't friendly like that.

Originally Posted by Sam

Topic by the balls, squeeze the topic. nothing personal. scooting out of here.

BTW the part I just highlited Sam added after I commented

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am gonna clean my answer up because I don't like giving June a headache..

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening.

I thought I was clear about how I felt with his over familiarity.

Originally Posted by Sam

No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!

I was NOT stereotyping Sam, I was making it clear we aren't familiar funny though how I get called out for being snarky but Sam does not?

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Thank you for the correction.

You done petting me in the head?

Cause this is what this feels like, you exerting your privi on me

I am not liking it

So please

Back to topic?

I am going to be honest I can't believe that I am having to defend my space, my words, and how I feel..

Thought I do think it is a perfect example of how we as femme's influence things in the long run.

If you need any further explanation for participation can you please pm me, and hand me my ass so that we can continue this.

[JustJo]

Hi everyone

I don't have a whole lot to contribute to this convo because I'm so new to this community...I simply haven't seen alot of the behavior that you're discussing. However, I'm all about building bridges instead of fences...pretty much everywhere.

The one thing that's jumping out for me is when we talk about being allies...because, for me, an ally has essentially picked a side and chosen to support one over the other. To me, that's divisive.

Much of my professional work is as a liaison...I bring diverse people together to work on common projects. I don't see myself as an ally of any group. I am the bridge...myself...and the most important thing I do is foster communication between them, rather than talking myself.

Just a thought...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by blush

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

I don't think Femme's have diverse pronoun usage to worry about. Or even so much diverse gender presentation. So we get a little taken for granted IMO. To me that translates into us doing a lot of work around making sure that the butches and trans folk around us are comfy. Over the last 5-7 years it has become kind of auto-pilot. That is where we get into trouble with laziness of language choices ya think?

I HAVE seen our counterparts care when it comes to things like oh say...Stone Femme. Even then the shit hits the fan and a consensus cannot be reached on a definition. My question to everyone is this: Do we need healing within the Femme community to the same degree or are we intertwined with the butch and trans communities?

Originally Posted by Arwen

Ally is one of THOSE words for me. I've been flat out told I can't call myself a trans-ally by someone. You will see that I ran with that. NOT.

What is an ally?

Interesting. I just went to look up the definition which is "to unite or form a connection between." Which I sort of knew but I did not know that the word stems from a word that means to bind.

So is an ally someone you bind yourself with in order to prove a connection?

Well. Hmphf! Nobody gets to tell you what you are. That is reedickulous. Also, if you bind yourself with somebody in order to prove a connection with them you need therapy, not the label of an ally.

With that being said, I also think that it's a fine line between ally and appropriation.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?

Yes. Fences are so hard to climb, and the electric ones frizz your hair. Bridges on the other hand let you cross over and visit for a while. It's a tricky thing not to build fences when you think you are building bridges. One gives you a clear view of the other side and one blocks your view.

Let's say that Cal starts testosterone and I run around making rhoid rage jokes in all the threads. I am erecting fences, am I not? If instead I thoughtfully answer any questions that people might ask me? I am building bridges, right?

Or if Cal goes into a thread and speaks about his experience and T and then somebody disputes it? If I wait for Cal to come back in and answer I am building bridges. If I go in and say this is what Cal meant, and you all don't understand Cal blahblahblah.....I am erecting fences.

Ack. Am I even making sense? I hope so. I am still not feeling well and I don't know if these are good examples.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I think they will talk about it in the other thread, about how we are influental.

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

Bingo! Yes, that is what I am trying to speak to above.

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah, I'm rabidly protective. Oh, the posts I've started and deleted...and the ones I should have deleted but posted instead...

Yes. It is great to be protective. I have to wonder at what point do we protect ourselves? What point do we sit on our hands and not jump in but instead let those we love hash it out? I often struggle with this.

Originally Posted by Nat

I've been rabidly protective before when I have seen a person cry over their frustration over a thread. I have a really strong protective streak. I have figured out (am figuring out still) that it's not appropriate in most cases for me to run with it when I'm feeling protective of other adults who are perfectly capable of having their own voices and using them.

I'm trying harder these days, if nothing else, to listen to, understand and support other femmes (and myself) at least to an equal degree as other IDs.

Yes. I have had to learn the hard way. At what point am I complicit in the cycle of othering? Of not letting somebody I love figure it out? Of speaking for another human being and taking their voice away?

Originally Posted by Oneida

Regarding this thread: a femme's influence on the friendships between butches and transmen" and hit a roadblock almost immediately.

Snow, why did Sam get "chastised" for using the word "balls" with respect to getting the conversation going? I really need to understand that before I can get into the spirit/participate in this thead.

Thanks

No disrespect meant to you Oneida, but what is the raodblock you find yourself hitting? How is it that you perceived Sam being chastised when he was asked for clarification around using the word "balls"?

I think that this is an example of how we as Femmes can take ownership of things that belong to butchs/trans people and in the process inadvertently build fences rather than bridges.

I'm not picking on you, I swear. I really just want you to understand it in the spirit of what the thread is about.

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Exactly ....
I don't believe in taking responsibility for others woes..
I also don't take on responsibility for those that do..

Thank you for saying this, because it happens.
I am glad you are aware.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm thinking about this protective thing. My intent is not to remove agency from grown-ass adults, but to add to their already existing agency. To double the power.

That has been my intention when I do this as well but I have found this is sometimes seen as ganging up. I think it's a great ally tactic when directed outside the community at/toward the powers that be but it can possibly lead to a greater us against them type divide when femme allyship voiced in the direction of one group ends up dominating those conversations. I haven't seen you do this but I know I have done it. I think it also may just polarize conversations when the femme gaze of sexual and emotional approval hovers within those conversations.

Maybe others discussing gender stuff are impervious to the pressure of those of the desired gender, but part of my own gender struggles has been the scary question of "can I be entirely authentic and still be desirable and loved?" because that was my own experience, I often wonder if the femme voice in threads regarding pronouns, inter-butch, butch-trans communications ends up raising the stakes and further polarizing those conversations.