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Old 06-26-2010, 04:23 PM   #221
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fun quiz:

http://www.bbhq.com/civquiz.htm
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:05 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Rufusboi View Post
Not all scientists can agree if global warming is happening. Not all scientists can agree that if it is happening whether it is caused by human actions or is a natural occurence. The evolution debate is also linked to religion. Just because someone has religious beliefs that don't coincide with another person's belief in evolution does not mean they are uninformed or uneducated, it just means they have different beliefs. I'm not a fan of Palin, but some people think it is wonky thinking to take Obama seriously or Clinton seriously.
It is true that not ALL scientists agree that global warming is happening. But the overwhelming consensus in the scientific community is that global warming is happening and that the most parsimonious cause is that it is anthropogenic. It is the explanation that best fits the data. What's more, the scientists who tend to *disagree* with the consensus are not, in fact, geophysicists or climate scientists--rather they tend to come from outside the field. Lastly, some of the scientists who claim to disagree with global warming are actually engineers. With no insult meant to any engineers in the house but engineering is not science. It is based upon science but it is not science itself.

Evolution is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of scientific evidence. I know that this is going to insult some folks but there's really no kind way to put this--if you deny that evolution happened then you are manifestly and seriously misinformed about biology. That's harsh but it also has the virtue of being true. ALL of the evidence in biology is on the side of evolution and NONE of it is on the side of any other explanation which, let's be honest, is creationism. Intelligent design is just creationism disguised to pass Constitutional muster. Again, ALL of the evidence in biology is on the side of evolution and NONE of it is on the side of any other explanation. This isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Anyone who tells you differently is either lying to you or doesn't know the literature.

All of the genetic evidence points to common descent.
Incipient structures point to common descent.
Transitional fossils point to common descent.
That we can *reliably* calculate the distance between any two species for which we have a complete genome within a margin of error of around +/- 1% points to common descent.
The fossil record points to common descent.
Species in transition toward speciation (the northern ring gulls around the Arctic circle) point to the fact that our model of speciation appears to be correct.
The fact that certain genes code for the same thing across phylum speaks to common descent. For example, the same gene that codes 'make eyes here' in fruit flies does the same job in rats, mice, humans in fact ALL of the placental mammals use the same gene (memory slips me if the marsupials use that gene but I believe they do). This doesn't specify what KIND of eyes grow in the location it simply specifies "whatever kind of eyes are going to be built, build them here". The HOX2 gene is ubiquitous in the animal kingdom (HOX2 is one of the genes tasked with building the overall body plan.)

I could go on and on but you get the picture. Evolution is the only *reasonable*, testable explanation subject to falsification going. Might an intelligent designer have created all of it? Sure, it's *possible*. But just because something is *possible* doesn't mean it is at all reasonable to assume that it happened. The problem with intelligent design is that it can't be falsified. Intelligent design proponents avoid the subject of falsification because they *know* they don't actually care if it can be falsified or not. If it can't be falsified it's not science. It might be art, poetry, religion or drama but it isn't science. Evolutionary theory can be falsified and has withstood every single challenge thrown at it in the last 150 years. Every anomaly so far has been accounted for.

Look, if someone said that the Sun orbits the Earth every single person here would say that person is ignorant of physics. If someone said that Abraham Lincoln was never President of the United States every single person here would say that person was ignorant of U.S. history. If someone said that space and time are two separate things then anyone who knows Relativity would say that person was ignorant of the that subject. And if someone maintains that evolutionary theory is wrong then that person is demonstrating their manifest ignorance of biology. I'm sorry, I know that's harsh, but it is still true. Yes, I know that there are biology teachers who claim that they don't accept the theory of evolution--they are either lying or they got their biology degree from a Christian college that taught them lies about the science of biology. Yes, I used the term lies because they are lies. To say that there are no transitional fossils is to lie. To say that there are irreducibly complex structures is to lie.

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Perhaps someone's belief that Saddam was involved in 9/11 is due to being influenced by media stories and hype.
No, it is due to not being skeptical, doing about 15 minutes worth of research on Google. It's this simple. Saddam Hussein was a Baathist. The Baathist are secular pan-Arabists and outside of using religion as a prop, take a pretty standard Jacobin Socialist line on religion--namely that it's bunk but is a tool of social control. The 9/11 hijackers were all members of Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is a Wahhabi-influenced group of Sunni Muslims. To put it into American cultural context, the Baath party would be somewhat akin to the Communist Party in Stalinist Russia and Wahhabism is to Islam as Southern Baptist is to Christianity. So what you are saying, in essence, is that the militaristic arm of a fanatically devout sect of Islam--whose leader, by the way, called for the head of Saddam Hussein for being an apostate--got into bed with a secular socialist who would just as soon be done away with religion entirely. Again, to put it into context that would be like saying that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are the two top donors to the ACLU! Now, this is information that if you had read anything about the Middle East you would have known as of 9 Sep 2001. But if you hadn't it was STILL information that existed and I simply Googled and linked to the very first result returned--which turned out to be Wikipedia articles.

These are not hidden or classified sources. They are totally open sources and so if someone believes that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11 or even thinks it is plausible it is because they didn't take the time to Google some terms that they were probably not familiar with before 11 Sep 2001. Terms like Wahhabi and Baath party and Sunni and pan-Arabism. If information is available--and it is--and the information is important--and it is--and someone doesn't take the time to go out and confirm for themselves that is THEIR fault, not the fault of society or the media.

Cheers
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:15 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Rufusboi View Post
Actually, I think a lot of us would welcome that. I think that you are assuming a lot of Americans would not bother. I think a lot would bother.

I think you are underestimaing the American population. I think more Americans are tuned in, aware, and concerned than you could imagine. Google Earth is a famous and well used tool. The CIA factbook is no secret. It is well used website and research tool.

Rufus
I don't think that I am, Rufus. Just to give you a couple of incidents which are, admittedly anecdotal but still agree with the evidence from pretty much every single study on the subject:

Gulf War I. I am about a year out of the military when this war jumps off. People at the office I worked at made statements like "we have to get Saddam before he can get over here". Now, there has been no 9/11 attack so no one is thinking about flying planes into buildings. They're thinking along the lines of the United States being invaded by Iraq. So I go my bud Bubba's house and get out his atlas and some tracing paper. I trace the relevant region leaving out the names of the countries. Not a *single* person could find Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Israel or the PERSIAN GULF on the map. I then showed them a map of the globe, pointed out where Iraq was, pointed out where the Persian Gulf was, pointed out what it would take to get ships or airplanes from Iraq to the Eastern United States and then asked how they could reasonably think he was any kind of threat to the US.

9/11. I'm teaching at a business school. Three of us try to give our students some context as to why people in, say, Palestine and Iran were jubilant over the attacks. My boss calls us all on the carpet. In the course of the conversation, we tell her what we said and she did not know that the US government overthrew the *rightfully elected government of Iran in the late 50's, installed a brutal dictator who ruled Iran for another quarter century before being over thrown in the Iranian revolution in 1979. None. This was something she was *alive* for! When I reminded her about the hostages who were held for 444 days, she remembered that! Oh yes, she certainly remembered that. But did not realize that the two events were correlated and was, in fact part of one another!

As far as Google Earth and the CWF, I'm not saying that people don't know about these tools. I'm saying that people wouldn't use them and would look down the nose of those who would think it important to do so to have the context of a presidential speech.
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:17 PM   #224
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ALL OF THIS IS PUBLIC INFORMATION AND THEY WANT US TO SHARE IT:

The Internet is about to be taken down in America !!

Internet kill switch plan approved 6/25/10

http://news.techworld.com/security/3...enate/?olo=rss

Blueprint for De-population - declassified passed in Congress

http://www.theinterim.com/july98/20nssm.html

This explains how we lost our government:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0711843120756#

Lindsey Williams - The Elite Speak - tells us their plans for us and what this oil spill is about:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHMtHvODtoQ"]YouTube- Lindsey Williams - The Elite Speak - DVD 1 Part 1 - Jan/Feb 2010 (To Seduce a Nation)[/nomedia]


In DVD 7, Lindsey Williams talks about how these elite have a moral code to tell us what they are going to do before they do it. Such as, the movie "Oil Storm" came out 2 weeks before hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans - Port Fourchor, which the script was written under their direction. Williams says there are some things in that movie that have not happened yet, that we should watch it.

He basically confirmed our suspicions that the elite do have the capability to steer hurricanes and steered Katrina into New Orleans. He says that this is done by heating the air in front of the wind which creates a path. We might assume that the chemtrail campaign which has been linked to HAARP is also somehow involved with this end game scheme of destruction, even though this wasn't specifally mentioned here. He recommended that we study the book, 'Angels Don't Play this HAARP'.

In DVD 8, He talks about how we are being 'marked' with 'chips' by the vaccines, that the chips are put in the needles and are 'nano' in size. That the health care bill is about total government takeover, to read the fine print.

In DVD 9, Williams says, "The Chinese are the strong ones. America is going to be relegated to third world status. The New World Order has made other nations their focal point. They have moved our industry abroad. We will be relegated to third world status after the elite complete their New World Order status."

Johnson says, "The person they most respect is Dmitru Duduman. They put him on the electric chair twice to get him to tell how he was smuggling Bibles. When the electricity was going through his body, the angel Gabriel showed up in the room and said, 'You're going to America to give them a warning from God'. When he got here the angel Gabriel came to him and said, 'that the fall of America would begin by an internal revolution started by the 'Communists'. Some of the people will start fighting against the government. The government will be busy with internal problems. Then from the oceans Russia, Cuba, Nicarauga, Central America, Mexico, and two other countries will attack and defeat America within one hour. Revelation 18, Jeremiah 50-51, other verses in the Bible will be fulfilled."

Revelation and Jeremiah compared:

http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/reve...h_compared.htm

Unbelievable - Guillotines in the FEMA concentration camps, passed in Congress... millions of coffins are sitting outside the FEMA camps.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1yaaW37CoM[/nomedia]


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com.../con_camps.htm

"The Gehlen Organization, copying Hitler's New Order, established a concentration camp system in San Luis Obispo County. It was called the California Specialized Training Institute. It developed plans called the *King Alfred Plan, Operation Cable Splitter, Operation Garden Plot,* and *REX-84* and was later renamed as the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). You can get more information on these subjects from Militia of Montana, Bo Gritz, *Spotlight Newspaper,* etc."

Mandatory Counseling on Assisted Suicide/Euthanasia

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/euthanasia.asp

You won't be able to fly on airplane (leave the country)... nor own a gun, all it takes is any doctor to deem you 'unstable' with no psychiatric testing.

Your tap water is mostly likely contaminated with pathogens from the oil spill. All food is suspect, look for black specks in your meat and vegetables, all fish is most likely contaminated to some degree:

Kellogg recalls 4 cereals for odd odor, flavor

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/06/2...#ixzz0s0KnRRq3

Strange looking bacon

"Opened a new package of Farmer John bacon to cook for breakfast this morning but the bacon looked so strange I was afraid to eat it. I have never seen bacon that looked like this."

Report: Toxins found in whales bode ill for humans

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100624/ap_on_sc/whaling

250,000 Oil Spills in U.S. Waters, 1971-2000

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/3V33Hh...-2000.html/r:t

Supposedly only 3% of the Press is not corrupt, you have to search them out, they are trying to make a difference.

Safely Storing Emergency Water

http://firstaid.about.com/od/emergen...ter_supply.htm
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:19 PM   #225
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Fun
I should have done better than I did but I did ok..
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:27 PM   #226
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*shakes my head*
I don't know what to say that will not be taken wrong, but all I can say that's fit to read is REALLY????? Good grief.
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:36 PM   #227
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*shakes my head*
I don't know what to say that will not be taken wrong, but all I can say that's fit to read is REALLY????? Good grief.
Hey Corkey, I need to talk to the Hopi - is there anyone on here that's in their tribe... ?

I've been doing research on Lyme and Morgellons and I stumbled on all of this, there's reason to believe that these "mystery" diseases will be in the water, too. I have been on a site researching and this is where my research lead me... I don't work for them!! I've been allowed to continue but I can't mention the diseases because they aren't public knowledge yet.

Tell the Hopi that the chemtrails are their 'spiderwebs', it creates a fungus that looks like a web, and the dispersants are the 'rivers of rocks' and that people should be flocking to them soon. The air and water are going to be contaminated and to get into their caves and to store lots of water.
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:43 PM   #228
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Kam I really don't have a clue what you are referring to here. Are the Hopi going to tell you anything? Um probably not. I don't understand why you are posting this stuff, and what it has to do with anything. Are you referring to the End time? 'Cause if you are it isn't about diseases and the sky falling, really.
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:49 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Kam View Post
ALL OF THIS IS PUBLIC INFORMATION AND THEY WANT US TO SHARE IT:

The Internet is about to be taken down in America !!
No, it isn't. The Internet is nowhere near about to be taken down in America and if someone read the whole article--as opposed to just looking at the headline, you would realize that.

Quote:
Internet kill switch plan approved 6/25/10

http://news.techworld.com/security/3...enate/?olo=rss
It got out of committee. That's not building anything. That doesn't even get it to the floor of the Senate. It got out of committee.

Quote:
Blueprint for De-population - declassified passed in Congress

http://www.theinterim.com/july98/20nssm.html
Lies. Yes, outright lies. The report has two recommendations--two--make education and birth control available to women. Not a plan for de-population, ideas to slow the rate of population growth. We KNOW that when women are better educated and have access to birth control they have fewer children. When women have access to better medical care and thus their children have that access, they have fewer children. This pattern repeats everywhere that education, birth control and access to medical care grows. Everywhere.

Quote:
He basically confirmed our suspicions that the elite do have the capability to steer hurricanes and steered Katrina into New Orleans. He says that this is done by heating the air in front of the wind which creates a path.
ROFLMAO!!!!! Control a hurricane? You have GOT to be kidding! Hurricanes cannot be steered, not by any technology on this planet.

Quote:
We might assume that the chemtrail campaign which has been linked to HAARP is also somehow involved with this end game scheme of destruction, even though this wasn't specifally mentioned here. He recommended that we study the book, 'Angels Don't Play this HAARP'.
I'm sure he did. One would be FAR better served studying some basic chemistry and physics to understand why jet aircraft leave contrails (hint: it has to do with what happens when hot humid air meets very cold air at low pressure--jets fly at an altitude of VERY low pressure which is why the jets are pressurized). Again, this isn't my opinion about jet airplanes and the physics, it's the *facts* about jet airplanes and physics.

Quote:
In DVD 8, He talks about how we are being 'marked' with 'chips' by the vaccines, that the chips are put in the needles and are 'nano' in size. That the health care bill is about total government takeover, to read the fine print.
ROFLMAO Take 2. No, we are not. And the health care bill is not a total government takeover. If you actually DO read the bill--and this guy knows you aren't going to read the bill--you'll see that.

Quote:
Johnson says, "The person they most respect is Dmitru Duduman. They put him on the electric chair twice to get him to tell how he was smuggling Bibles. When the electricity was going through his body, the angel Gabriel showed up in the room and said, 'You're going to America to give them a warning from God'. When he got here the angel Gabriel came to him and said, 'that the fall of America would begin by an internal revolution started by the 'Communists'.
I'm just going to sit here in stunned silence, my mouth agape for a moment because I really don't believe I'm reading this. The angel Gabriel. Invoked in a discussion of politics. I don't even know what to say.

Quote:
Some of the people will start fighting against the government. The government will be busy with internal problems. Then from the oceans Russia, Cuba, Nicarauga, Central America, Mexico, and two other countries will attack and defeat America within one hour. Revelation 18, Jeremiah 50-51, other verses in the Bible will be fulfilled."
ROFL!! That's the plot of Red Dawn!!! You do realize that don't you?

Quote:
Mandatory Counseling on Assisted Suicide/Euthanasia

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/euthanasia.asp
Okay this is the best one yet! You didn't even read the Snopes article. In your rush to copy and paste as many links of paranoia as you could find, you didn't take the time to read the first 6 lines of the Snopes piece on this rumour. It's FALSE. Word twenty-one in the actual section dealing with the rumour is False. In all caps and a 22 pt font. Next to a big red button so I can see how you could miss that on the page.

Quote:
You won't be able to fly on airplane (leave the country)... nor own a gun, all it takes is any doctor to deem you 'unstable' with no psychiatric testing.
Not even remotely true.

Quote:
Your tap water is mostly likely contaminated with pathogens from the oil spill. All food is suspect, look for black specks in your meat and vegetables, all fish is most likely contaminated to some degree:

ROFLMAO!!!! My goodness, doesn't anyone ever do critical thinking anymore? The Gulf of Mexico is SALT water. I am not aware of any American city that gets its municipal water from desalination. So you *cannot* have specks of oil in your drinking water from the oil spill because you aren't DRINKING water from the Gulf of Mexico. No one is irrigating food crops with that water either. Now, I want you to do this--because it's clear you didn't do this before--get a map of the area, notice the large river running north-to-south through the continent called the Mississipppi. Now, why on Earth would people living either off the Mississippi OR on top of a large aquifer get their water from a SALT water which has to be desalinated AND cleaned while the river and aquifer water just needs to be cleaned. Can you please explain that to me?
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Old 06-27-2010, 02:18 AM   #230
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Rather than argue what I said, you managed to prove what I said.
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Not all scientists can agree if global warming is happening. Not all scientists can agree that if it is happening whether it is caused by human actions or is a natural occurence.
"Not all scientists can agree" is an argument of the uninformed or ignorant. Understanding preponderance of evidence and overwhelming consensus in science are pretty basic skills.
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The evolution debate is also linked to religion. Just because someone has religious beliefs that don't coincide with another person's belief in evolution does not mean they are uninformed or uneducated, it just means they have different beliefs.
People's religious beliefs don't have coincide, that's not the point. The point is that evolution, as Aj put it, is a matter of scientific evidence. Confusing religion with science is an argument of the uniformed or ignorant.
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I'm not a fan of Palin, but some people think it is wonky thinking to take Obama seriously or Clinton seriously.
Yes, some unformed or ignorant people do think that Palin is the bomb and think that it is wonky to take those two men seriously. Obama is one of the smartest people in this country, and Clinton's right up there. Palin, on the other hand, has a clear and consistent track record of being not terribly bright. So, yeah, when someone thinks Obama's a joke and Palin's not, that person's not "tuned in" or "aware".
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The points you are making above have to do with opinion not how informed someone is on issues or how willing they are to learn about issues. Otherwise you are saying that anyone that does not agree with you is uninformed. Surely you are not saying that?
Sorry, no. Global warming, evolution, and how smart Obama is next to Palin aren't opinions. I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing with me on facts. I have a huge problem with someone disagreeing with me because of their lack of facts and refusal to look at the facts.
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Perhaps someone's belief that Saddam was involved in 9/11 is due to being influenced by media stories and hype. Part of the issue is that most of us don't know what to believe because most of what we read is biased and skewed, lacking facts, or poorly written. So perhaps if the President did say take out your map, here are the facts, maybe many of us would. We spend our days sorting through so much misinformation that most of us no longer know which side is up.
This conversation started because you said "I think more Americans are tuned in, aware, and concerned than you could imagine." Now you're saying that most of you don't know how to sort out the facts from the crap. Which is it?
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My larger point is not to point fingers at the masses or people who disagree with you, but to point out the problems with sources of information.
Again, all those tuned in, aware, and concerned Americans should be able to weight information against it's sources.
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I would also add that I think most of the problem is not to do with lack of knowledge of facts and info bites, but lack of critical thinking and analysis. Teaching people how to think is more important than teaching them what to think.
Again, gotta disagree. Teaching people how to think is vitally important, agreed. But, teaching them what to think is also important. All the critical thinking skills in the world mean nothing if they're taught to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. No amount of critical thinking skills are going to help those school kids in Texas who are having American history replaced by Conservative indoctrination. You can't critically think your way out of a paper bag if you don't have facts.
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Old 06-27-2010, 02:36 AM   #231
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I am not aware of any American city that gets its municipal water from desalination.
Aj, the largest desalination plant in the US is in Tampa Bay, FL. It's had numerous problems over the years and still isn't running at full capacity, but I'd venture a guess that its use could be impacted by the spill, should the oil flow near shore in that area. Of course, you and I know that the people who run the plant and the people who run the city aren't completely stupid - if oil is going to be an issue, they'll shut down the plant.

Little facts aside, that's still not going to cause any of the nonsense in that article. I'm not sure it even takes critical thinking to see how absurd it is; paying attention to the "this how clouds form and where rain comes from" lecture in elementary school should cover it.
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Old 06-27-2010, 08:36 AM   #232
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Aj, the largest desalination plant in the US is in Tampa Bay, FL. It's had numerous problems over the years and still isn't running at full capacity, but I'd venture a guess that its use could be impacted by the spill, should the oil flow near shore in that area. Of course, you and I know that the people who run the plant and the people who run the city aren't completely stupid - if oil is going to be an issue, they'll shut down the plant.

Little facts aside, that's still not going to cause any of the nonsense in that article. I'm not sure it even takes critical thinking to see how absurd it is; paying attention to the "this how clouds form and where rain comes from" lecture in elementary school should cover it.
Ms D;

Thank you for the correction. I was rushed writing that last post because I was trying to get the post done before I took Jaime to a nice French restaurant for our anniversary. As such I didn't have time to fact-check whether or not desalination was used in American cities along the gulf.

I also want to thank you for the points you made to Rufusboi because they were spot on. We live in a world saturated by information and yet people don't take the time to get even the most basic facts down. What's more, while it's important to teach people how to think there are books that any literate person capable of reading at a 7th or 8th grade level could get through that will help you learn HOW to think logically. (It's a skill and I am mystified why no one would suggest that one could become a pianist--of any skill level still worthy of the name--only after practice but people assume logical and rational thinking is just something that magically happens.)

There are books one can buy at Amazon or check out of any public library that are, for all purposes, a philosophy 101 class. And not dry stuff either. Janet Radcliffe Richards (a British feminist) has two books--one out of print but available the library nevertheless--that are textbooks for philosophy 101. They are "Human Nature After Darwin" and "The Skeptical Feminist". Both use their subject matter to do double-duty--if you know nothing about Darwinian theory the first is a reasonably good introduction to the theory and at the same time, also teaches critical thinking skills. The latter book does the same thing for feminism--introduces the subject and teaches critical thinking skills while doing so.

Yet people don't avail themselves of all this information they are awash in. So it drives me to distraction when people claim that I'm being somehow elitist to suggest that if someone says, just to take one very familiar howler regarding Darwinism, "if we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys", they are evidencing a deep and profound level of ignorance about the subject. It would be like someone claiming that someone who says 1 + 1 = 5 isn't ignorant of math they've just been fooled by the media or what-have-you. No, anyone who says that 1 + 1 = any real or rational number OTHER than 2 that person is actually, really, and truly ignorant of mathematics and there is no reason to take a single thing they have to say on the subject of math seriously.

As far as the relative intelligences of Obama, Clinton and Palin--it is remarkable that anyone would try to compare those three. The first two are in a class of intellect that were I in the same room as them I would be *humbled* to be in their presence and I’m no intellectual slouch. Meeting either one of them would be, for me, nothing so much as like Luke Skywalker realizing that he was in the presence of Yoda for the first time. (Although I'd be less whiny about it) Palin, on the other hand, evidences a truly breathtaking ignorance about pretty much any subject she spouts off on. What's even more remarkable is that we are supposed to believe that a man who got into one of the best schools in the country on a *scholarship* and then went to the best law school in the country, becoming editor of the most prestigious academic legal publication in the country (can ANYONE here who isn't a lawyer or isn't related to a lawyer name a single legal journal OTHER than the Harvard Law Review?) and then teaching Constitutional law at the University of Chicago (another tier-1 school) is less intelligent than a woman who went to five different colleges--none of them any higher than tier-2 before graduating with a degree in communications? We are also supposed to believe that this same person is more intelligent than someone who ALSO went to a tier-1 school (Yale) on a scholarship and then was a Rhodes Scholar. Really? By that logic, I am the both a faster runner than Wilma Rudolf or Carl Lewis AND a better cyclist than Lance Armstrong since showing *less* ability is somehow, in some strange kind of Zen-inspired koan, to actually show superior ability.
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Old 06-27-2010, 08:52 AM   #233
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just in case Rufus was talking about Hilary Clinton......

In 1969 she was the first student commencement speaker at Wellesley. She later graduated from Yale Law School and became the first female partner at Rose Law Firm. During that time she was twice listed among the top 100 lawyers in this country.

Her time as first Lady is well known. She was elected to the Senate in 2000. She was the first viable woman candidate for POTUS. Obama selected her as his Secretary of State.

Hilary ain't no slouch in the brains department.

Palin on the other hand could not think her way out of a paper bag.
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:13 AM   #234
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It is true that not ALL scientists agree that global warming is happening. But the overwhelming consensus in the scientific community is that global warming is happening and that the most parsimonious cause is that it is anthropogenic. It is the explanation that best fits the data. What's more, the scientists who tend to *disagree* with the consensus are not, in fact, geophysicists or climate scientists--rather they tend to come from outside the field. Lastly, some of the scientists who claim to disagree with global warming are actually engineers. With no insult meant to any engineers in the house but engineering is not science. It is based upon science but it is not science itself.

Evolution is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of scientific evidence. I know that this is going to insult some folks but there's really no kind way to put this--if you deny that evolution happened then you are manifestly and seriously misinformed about biology. That's harsh but it also has the virtue of being true. ALL of the evidence in biology is on the side of evolution and NONE of it is on the side of any other explanation which, let's be honest, is creationism. Intelligent design is just creationism disguised to pass Constitutional muster. Again, ALL of the evidence in biology is on the side of evolution and NONE of it is on the side of any other explanation. This isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Anyone who tells you differently is either lying to you or doesn't know the literature.

All of the genetic evidence points to common descent.
Incipient structures point to common descent.
Transitional fossils point to common descent.
That we can *reliably* calculate the distance between any two species for which we have a complete genome within a margin of error of around +/- 1% points to common descent.
The fossil record points to common descent.
Species in transition toward speciation (the northern ring gulls around the Arctic circle) point to the fact that our model of speciation appears to be correct.
The fact that certain genes code for the same thing across phylum speaks to common descent. For example, the same gene that codes 'make eyes here' in fruit flies does the same job in rats, mice, humans in fact ALL of the placental mammals use the same gene (memory slips me if the marsupials use that gene but I believe they do). This doesn't specify what KIND of eyes grow in the location it simply specifies "whatever kind of eyes are going to be built, build them here". The HOX2 gene is ubiquitous in the animal kingdom (HOX2 is one of the genes tasked with building the overall body plan.)

I could go on and on but you get the picture. Evolution is the only *reasonable*, testable explanation subject to falsification going. Might an intelligent designer have created all of it? Sure, it's *possible*. But just because something is *possible* doesn't mean it is at all reasonable to assume that it happened. The problem with intelligent design is that it can't be falsified. Intelligent design proponents avoid the subject of falsification because they *know* they don't actually care if it can be falsified or not. If it can't be falsified it's not science. It might be art, poetry, religion or drama but it isn't science. Evolutionary theory can be falsified and has withstood every single challenge thrown at it in the last 150 years. Every anomaly so far has been accounted for.

Look, if someone said that the Sun orbits the Earth every single person here would say that person is ignorant of physics. If someone said that Abraham Lincoln was never President of the United States every single person here would say that person was ignorant of U.S. history. If someone said that space and time are two separate things then anyone who knows Relativity would say that person was ignorant of the that subject. And if someone maintains that evolutionary theory is wrong then that person is demonstrating their manifest ignorance of biology. I'm sorry, I know that's harsh, but it is still true. Yes, I know that there are biology teachers who claim that they don't accept the theory of evolution--they are either lying or they got their biology degree from a Christian college that taught them lies about the science of biology. Yes, I used the term lies because they are lies. To say that there are no transitional fossils is to lie. To say that there are irreducibly complex structures is to lie.



No, it is due to not being skeptical, doing about 15 minutes worth of research on Google. It's this simple. Saddam Hussein was a Baathist. The Baathist are secular pan-Arabists and outside of using religion as a prop, take a pretty standard Jacobin Socialist line on religion--namely that it's bunk but is a tool of social control. The 9/11 hijackers were all members of Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is a Wahhabi-influenced group of Sunni Muslims. To put it into American cultural context, the Baath party would be somewhat akin to the Communist Party in Stalinist Russia and Wahhabism is to Islam as Southern Baptist is to Christianity. So what you are saying, in essence, is that the militaristic arm of a fanatically devout sect of Islam--whose leader, by the way, called for the head of Saddam Hussein for being an apostate--got into bed with a secular socialist who would just as soon be done away with religion entirely. Again, to put it into context that would be like saying that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are the two top donors to the ACLU! Now, this is information that if you had read anything about the Middle East you would have known as of 9 Sep 2001. But if you hadn't it was STILL information that existed and I simply Googled and linked to the very first result returned--which turned out to be Wikipedia articles.

These are not hidden or classified sources. They are totally open sources and so if someone believes that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11 or even thinks it is plausible it is because they didn't take the time to Google some terms that they were probably not familiar with before 11 Sep 2001. Terms like Wahhabi and Baath party and Sunni and pan-Arabism. If information is available--and it is--and the information is important--and it is--and someone doesn't take the time to go out and confirm for themselves that is THEIR fault, not the fault of society or the media.

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I'm not trying to argue global warming or evolution. I was arguing the point you made about the masses being uninformed. I don't agree with that opinion.

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Old 06-27-2010, 09:18 AM   #235
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As far as Google Earth and the CWF, I'm not saying that people don't know about these tools. I'm saying that people wouldn't use them and would look down the nose of those who would think it important to do so to have the context of a presidential speech.

Ok - that's where we differ in opinion, I think a lot of people would use these tools. I think people use them everyday. I think you underestimate the majority of Americans. I don't think people would look down their noses. Look, we are just differing in opinions that we have no facts or stats to support. I just think the American population is a little more tuned in than you do. Can I prove that, no. Can you prove most would look down their noses, no.

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Old 06-27-2010, 09:32 AM   #236
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Again, gotta disagree. Teaching people how to think is vitally important, agreed. But, teaching them what to think is also important. All the critical thinking skills in the world mean nothing if they're taught to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. No amount of critical thinking skills are going to help those school kids in Texas who are having American history replaced by Conservative indoctrination. You can't critically think your way out of a paper bag if you don't have facts.
Totally disagree here. If people have critical thinking skills they can find the information and understand the information they find and can learn that the earth is not 6,000 years old. THey will know the difference beween religion and science. Critical thinking will teach the kids in Texas not to take those textbooks at face Value.

That's the whole point of critical thinking, you question everything you read and hear!! You don't need facts to critiically think your way our of a paper bag, you need to know to question all received information.

If people are taught what to think rather than how to think, then we will definitely have a nation of sheep because those in power will be teaching the "what." If people are taught how to think and have strong critical thinking skills then they are independent thinkers and won't be led around by people who are trying to teach them "what' to think.

Teaching people "What" to think just scares me. Its brainwashing.

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Old 06-27-2010, 09:38 AM   #237
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I'm not trying to argue global warming or evolution. I was arguing the point you made about the masses being uninformed. I don't agree with that opinion.

Rufus
Then what do you call it when someone has the facts available to them, doesn't avail themselves of those facts and then holds opinions that are erroneous? If it's not uninformed and it's not ignorant, what on Earth is it? What IS uninformed if not acquiring relevant facts related to an opinion BEFORE forming an opinion? What is ignorant if not espousing an opinion on a matter to which one either has no facts or has what they believe to be facts but is really incorrect information?

I wasn't trying to argue either global warming or evolution. I was arguing that the evidence for both of those is solid enough that to hold an opinion contrary to them is ignorant and/or uninformed. It would be equally ignorant and/or uninformed to say that the Sun orbits the Earth or that Barack Obama is not currently President of the United States and for the same kinds of reasons--the overwhelming evidence points to those conclusions. People may not believe that to be the case, but they are wrong.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:53 AM   #238
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Then what do you call it when someone has the facts available to them, doesn't avail themselves of those facts and then holds opinions that are erroneous? If it's not uninformed and it's not ignorant, what on Earth is it? What IS uninformed if not acquiring relevant facts related to an opinion BEFORE forming an opinion? What is ignorant if not espousing an opinion on a matter to which one either has no facts or has what they believe to be facts but is really incorrect information?

I wasn't trying to argue either global warming or evolution. I was arguing that the evidence for both of those is solid enough that to hold an opinion contrary to them is ignorant and/or uninformed. It would be equally ignorant and/or uninformed to say that the Sun orbits the Earth or that Barack Obama is not currently President of the United States and for the same kinds of reasons--the overwhelming evidence points to those conclusions. People may not believe that to be the case, but they are wrong.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
I would call it ignorance just like you do. But getting back to my original point. You offered a general opinion that most people would look down at someone who got out their Google map or went to the CIA factbook site. My opinoin is that most would not. Focus on the word "most." You tend to think a large majority of Americans scoff at education, while I don't.

There will always be crazy thinkers, people who insist up is down. Not much we can do about that. They exist in all countires at all times. My point is that you tend to scoff at a lot of people who given the opportuniuty would welcome some facts and straight talking. Its easy to point fingers and say this person is dumb, that person is uneducated. But rather than blaming the individual we need to think in larger terms.

My larger point is not to point fingers at the masses or people who disagree with you, but to point out the problems with sources of information. My other point, made mostly to Msdeamenor, is if we focus on critical thinking, rather than shoving people full of facts to take a test, we will end up with more independent thinkers who have the ability to sort through the crap. We will teach people how to think, not what to think.

Its my belief that the problem is rooted in the school system. We no longer teach critical thinking. It is a learned skill. It is not easy to learn this skill alone. We need a school and social system that supports this type of thinking and learning. We don't have that. Based on some of your prior posts you think that an individual can pick up a book and teach themselves critical thinking and logic, I happen to disagree with this. Yes, it is a learned skill but it can't be done in isolation.

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Old 06-27-2010, 12:18 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Rufusboi View Post
I would call it ignorance just like you do. But getting back to my original point. You offered a general opinion that most people would look down at someone who got out their Google map or went to the CIA factbook site. My opinoin is that most would not. Focus on the word "most." You tend to think a large majority of Americans scoff at education, while I don't.
That's not what Aj said. You're the only one in this conversation who has stated that we're talking about a majority of or most Americans. This reflects part of our opinion that facts matter in critical thinking, in that it appears to me that you're trying to critically think and present an argument based on something that wasn't said.

President Obama gave his first Oval Office speech on the Gulf disaster recently. 32 million people watched - roughly 10% of the US population. Of the other 90%, some are young children, at work, infirmed, etc. and clearly not capable of watching or clearly too young. What about everyone else? Are they already so informed that they had no need to watch or do they not care enough to bother? Even more disturbing, the largest audience for post-speech coverage watched O'Reilly on Faux Newz. 3.6 million - 10% of the viewers and 1% of the population (roughly) - people chose as their source of post-speech analysis the single worst place in all of television in which to get anything resembling either facts or critical analysis.
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Old 06-27-2010, 12:24 PM   #240
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