Clothes do not Maketh the butch ....

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Alright, just wanna jump in because there seems to be a reoccuring "anti-'sloppy'" theme on these forums, lol. Seriously, I understand if you all don't like to dress a certain way, but why does it have to come down to commenting about how other's might choose to dress, even if it is "sloppy" in your books? Is a person in a pair of slacks and a polo automatically "better" than a person in torn up jeans and a sleeveless shirt? Also, there's a difference in grooming/hygiene and the clothing a person chooses to wear. Just because I have multiple holes in my pair of camos, or the bottoms of my jeans are shredded to shit, doesn't mean I'm unhygienic. Sheesh, people

From the mouths of the greats:

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

It is an interesting question how far men would retain their relative rank if they were divested of their clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. - Henry David Thoreau

He also has a great one from Walden where he goes on rant on how it's idiotic that a man is looked down upon if he walks into town with a hole in the knee of his pants, yet if he had a broken leg no one would care. Why does a hole in the knee of his pants speak of his character? It shouldn't.

If most of us are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it. - Albert Einstein

In fact, that one just might be new sig material lol



Exactly To me, dress "neatly" if you want to dress that way. Dress in a suit every day of your life if you want. Dress in sweatpants every day if you want. Walk around in a brown paper bag for all I care, lol.

Cheers,

Ender, King of shabby clothing

Really good points!

Ripped up jeans can be hot.

[Corkey]

Today it's a tee shirt( size matters fishin') and shorts kinda day in mah slippers, I walk to and from the trash cans and all about our yard. I could care less what others think of my get up.

If I won the Lottery I'd wear ultra smart bespoke clothing day in day out. As I'm a poor student I keep my good suits for best and wear regular 501's or cargo troosers/shorts and tshirts with a hoody or some such rather a lot. Does that make me an 'un' genderqueer-poof? I think lots of us on the male end of the spectrum (wherever that is for you personally) tend to dress thus on a day to day basis. It's clean and pressed but not 'smart' that's all.

Then when we need to we scrub up mighty fine!

[Martina]

One of the hottest butches i have been with wore cargo pants, t-shirts, and hoodies much of the time. God, nothing like a sleeveless t-shirt on a butch. .

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Butch is a gender no? The shell does not represent gender, that's just me

Butch shells?

Where does one shop to get these shells?

And me thinking skinny jeans and Harley boots would do.

[Legendryder]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Alright, just wanna jump in because there seems to be a reoccuring "anti-'sloppy'" theme on these forums, lol. Seriously, I understand if you all don't like to dress a certain way, but why does it have to come down to commenting about how other's might choose to dress, even if it is "sloppy" in your books? Is a person in a pair of slacks and a polo automatically "better" than a person in torn up jeans and a sleeveless shirt? Also, there's a difference in grooming/hygiene and the clothing a person chooses to wear. Just because I have multiple holes in my pair of camos, or the bottoms of my jeans are shredded to shit, doesn't mean I'm unhygienic. Sheesh, people

From the mouths of the greats:

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

It is an interesting question how far men would retain their relative rank if they were divested of their clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. - Henry David Thoreau

He also has a great one from Walden where he goes on rant on how it's idiotic that a man is looked down upon if he walks into town with a hole in the knee of his pants, yet if he had a broken leg no one would care. Why does a hole in the knee of his pants speak of his character? It shouldn't.

If most of us are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it. - Albert Einstein

In fact, that one just might be new sig material lol



Exactly To me, dress "neatly" if you want to dress that way. Dress in a suit every day of your life if you want. Dress in sweatpants every day if you want. Walk around in a brown paper bag for all I care, lol.

Cheers,

Ender, King of shabby clothing

Well, since the very first post of this here deal was how important clothes are to you, it seems that all these "anti-sloppy" people are saying they are pretty darn important. At least that is what I was posting to that is. I also could give a flip what everyone else wears. I can tell you this though, I will not date a messy woman. Messy bed, messy head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Butch shells?

Where does one shop to get these shells?

And me thinking skinny jeans and Harley boots would do.

Are you makin' an effort at being witty?

[Jomore]

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

[Corkey]

Clothes don't define who we are. They are but a expression of our outer shell. I am a human being, I wear cloths that I am comfortable in. Period.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't find anything "silly" about a femme who chooses to wear certain clothing?

Can you clarify what you meant?

[theoddz]

I have to share this here about clothes......

There's 2 very nice people I know at work. One is a guy I work with and the Lady is one of my nurse friends who works over on the Psych ward. I recently have been playing "matchmaker" between these two because I think they'd get on famously together. Both have wonderful personalities and they're both Creole, from the Texas/Louisiana areas. They like the same foods, the same kinds of music and they come from similar cultures and backgrounds, so what's not to love???

Now, the woman...my friend Pauline, is a really outgoing, kind, caring and social person and she has this wild 'n crazy sense of humor. She's a dear woman to her very core!! When I was first telling them each about the other, Pauline turns and says to me, about Joe:

"He better not be wearing no K-Mart clothes!!!"



Bah ahahahahahahahaha

Just WHAT, exactly, are "K-Mart clothes"????

People are funny.



~Theo~

[DomnNC]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't find anything "silly" about a femme who chooses to wear certain clothing?

Can you clarify what you meant?

I don't get that either Snow. My wife could wear a pair of jeans, t-shirt and leather jacket and rock the hella out of them and was still just as femme as she was when wearing a dress or business suit. That statement was kinda silly in and of itself I think.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Incubus

Really Merlin? I can't say I've ever heard that from any of the bf community I know here.

My partner, a butch, would say it. She'd say that butch could be *your* gender, but she doesn't count it as hers. Why is it necessary to speak for the entire "bf community"? The beauty of this site, for me, has been acceptance of each other, not defining one another. Conversely, I've been told by several in the broader b-f world (maybe on here or not?) that I am not a femme, I'm a lesbian, as if they can't both be part of my identity. People tell people what to be all the time, it seems, including when they declare that no one would say butch is not a gender. Why is that any less narrowing than saying it always is??

And, on topic, I don't think that clothing has to be limited by the person's gender identity, or other identities. But, doesn't it usually say something about how the person prefers to present themselves to the world? And, don't people usually want to be "gotten" and understood? I'm no less of a femme in jeans and a t-shirt, because who I am shows through the clothing. At the same time, unlike my partner, I buy all my clothing in the women's department. She enjoys her masculinity and likes to be identified with it. She'll be unlikely to ever wear a dress or high heels.

[Silverseastar]

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.

So if you want to be "seen" as a butch, there are certainly markers that others look for. Clothing can be one of them. It's not the only one however.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Are you makin' an effort at being witty?

No, I'm just always on the lookout for fashion tips.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Chazz

No, I'm just always on the lookout for fashion tips.

Well...

There's always the TMNT look

[DapperButch]

I like clothes.

I like "dapper" looking clothes and casual clothes.

I have this weird thing about "wasting" clothes, though. If I am not going anywhere I only want to wear crappy, worn out clothes around the house b/c I don't want to get the "good ones", dirty. "Good ones" are defined by how much I like the clothes, not the newness, "quality" or "dressiness" of them. It really doesn't have to do with not wanting to do laundry, either. I don't know what it is about.

Weird.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I like clothes.

I like "dapper" looking clothes and casual clothes.

I have this weird thing about "wasting" clothes, though. If I am not going anywhere I only want to wear crappy, worn out clothes around the house b/c I don't want to get the "good ones", dirty. "Good ones" are defined by how much I like the clothes, not the newness, "quality" or "dressiness" of them.

Is that weird?

Nope, there are the good cloths to go out in then the indoors garb then the work cloths, last but not least the camping/fishing cloths. As always your mileage may vary.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.

@Legendryder: Yes, heaven forbid you date a "messy woman." That might cause the sky to fall and all. Fuck, if I only befriended people based on their appearance and how they kept their house I'd be missing out on the most interesting people I've ever met. But hey, do what you like. I just think that kind of prejudice isn't helpful for society as a whole. I prefer to judge people on what they have to say or who they are as people.

[Glenn]

I must say here that I've always had a love/hate relationship with clothes. Speaking strictly for me, I have never wanted to wear female ID clothes. Even when I could have had that dream job/promotion, I would'nt accept it. The same goes for schools, people, etc. A hot date who expected me to look femme for special occassions was likewise shot down, along with the entire relationship. Clothes are also my pride and joy, and clothes defined an important aspect of me, or I could have had a bigger pension. So for better or worse,, clothes have been a huge part of my life-style and Did have a hand in trying to braketh or maketh this Stonebutch.