Clothes do not Maketh the butch ....

[asphaltcowboi]

im thinking if you are what you wear i would have to be an old worn out pair of 501s and a harley tee most the time.

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Jomore

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

Jomore, i take exception to your post.

i get it that to you femmes would look "pretty silly" in the type of clothes you prefer. But this femme is an extremely feminine woman who can and does wear the very type of clothing you prefer and neither look nor feel silly. In fact, i've been told that the combination of jeans, t-shirt and leather jacket looks pretty darn good on me.

So, you're saying that to you all femmes should dress a certain way? And does this mean that because a don't dress in that certain way she cannot possibly be a femme as far as you are concerned? Are we not all allowed to feel comfortable in our respective skins free from the dictum of others?

Please do enlighten us...

[Jomore]

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?

sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

[Jomore]

PS
I just like really nice very masculine clothing, that's all.

[chefhottie25]

i can relate to your point about the importance of clothing and how they define us in the world. it is a part of our skin. my clothing selections are very important to me...they help convey my image and my understanding of who i am. i also wanted to respond to your comment about femmes in "butch" clothing. i think some femmes can totally rock "butch" clothing. it brings femme style to idea of what is considered the butch look. it is classic gender bending and that is always positive. questioning and pushing perceived ideas about what is butch and what is femme. deconstructing those binary roles opens up our freedom of expression.

Originally Posted by Jomore

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

[Gayla]

Umm. What's "butch" clothing?

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Jomore

....I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations....

I don't know if it helps any, but that's how I read your post--that you were speaking about a very specific group of femmes, people you know personally.

I know a lot of femmes who wouldn't be caught dead in men's clothes.

[Martina]

i am not what i wear.

It has been brought to my attention that I appeared to be speaking for the whole of the UK bf community in what I've said in this thread and that the phrase "lezzer-land" is offensive. My apologies to those I offended with this.

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Jomore

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?

sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

In addition, your opprobrious use of the terms "babe" and "flakey" cannot be so easily dismissed through your claim of being "...just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy."

You are welcome to send me a PM if you change your mind and wish to discuss this further.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

Your original post to Jomore came across scathingly condescending and sarcastic, Miss Scarlett, and you had misread and misinterpreted what Jomore actually said.

If it were me who had made such a mistake, I personally would be apologizing for my own rudeness rather than objecting to the answer it got me.

I recently read a thread Medusa started where she asks us all to show some patience and graciousness towards new members. I think that's a good idea. It might save us some embarrasment, especially if the mistake might not be theirs but ours.

[PumaJ]

"Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself & who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are." ~ Jomore

Jomore, hooray for your being an "unrepentant Dandy":-) I tend to agree with your statement regarding clothing serves as a way to communicate certain things about ourselves to others, if for no other reason than that is what the dominant culture & media teaches us about our clothes.

In my view, clothes do not determine gender, though certainly clothes are often used as a way to give a visual representation of one's gender. The style of that representation is really a matter of personal preference. Using myself as an example, I am a very "girly" Femme, a High Femme. Sometimes, I really amp it up, especially if I'm going out to some sort of social event. The style I choose to rock depends on the event. Even on an average day, when I am dressed "down" in T-shirt & pants, if I am going out to do anything at all, anything, even grocery shopping, on goes some makeup & jewelry bling, because that is what feels good to me. Now, if I am staying home & chillin' well...different story. Once, when going out to a party, I borrowed a shirt & tie from my partner at the time & put them on with a pair of my Levis. Did I look like a Butch? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha... no way in h..ll! Everyone loved my "high fashion" statement though & thought I looked quite fly.

Once a long time ago, not long after I'd become lovers with a most handsome Butch, I noticed that sometimes she wore women's undies & sometimes even some mascara. "Hmm," I thought, "what's up with that?" So, I very gently asked her about it. I said something like, "Honey, are you more comfortable wearing women's undies & puttin' on mascara?"

To which she answered that no, she wasn't, not really. I asked, "Oh? So why do you then?"

Her answer was that her ex. thought it was weird that she wanted to wear men's briefs & no makeup because she "is a woman after all".

"Oh, really?" I said. Well, my lover was probably an 81/2 or 9 on the masculine of center spectrum & that girly stuff just didn't feel or look right to me. So, I said, "Honey, no offense, but you know you kind of look like you're in drag when you wear women's undies & mascara."

"Really? You think so? Kind of feels that way to me. Won't it bother you if I wear men's briefs?"

"Honey, I suspect that given that you are so Butch, what feels comfortable
most likely includes men's briefs, shirts, pants, socks, jackets, coats, hats...and the like. So, of course, you get to wear any & all of that. Plus, honestly, that is part of what makes me weak in the knees over Butches."

Tears...there were tears in her eyes. She just looked at me then said, "You get it, don't you? You really get it & you like it."

"Yes, darlin', I get it & I most definitely like it."

We are who we are. Clothes do not determine that. Some of us may pay more attention to what we put on in terms of specific style or fashion & really get into using our clothes to express aspects of ourselves, & to look fly, but some of us don't. Either way, we are who we are as women who are masculine of center or femme of center.

BTW, Jomore, my panties haven't been put in a twist by the manner in which you have expressed yourself because 1) I totally grokked what you were saying, 2) I didn't perceive any animosity in your words, & 3) I've learned that many times it is easy to misinterpret what others write in net land when all we have is text to express ourselves & not all of us are fab wordsmiths.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Jomore

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?

sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

In addition, your opprobrious use of the terms "babe" and "flakey" cannot be so easily dismissed through your claim of being "...just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy."

You are welcome to send me a PM if you change your mind and wish to discuss this further.

Originally Posted by Bit

Your original post to Jomore came across scathingly condescending and sarcastic, Miss Scarlett, and you had misread and misinterpreted what Jomore actually said.

If it were me who had made such a mistake, I personally would be apologizing for my own rudeness rather than objecting to the answer it got me.

I recently read a thread Medusa started where she asks us all to show some patience and graciousness towards new members. I think that's a good idea. It might save us some embarrasment, especially if the mistake might not be theirs but ours.

I just want to settle all of this down before things get too heated.

The mod team actually appreciates the heck out of members handling these kinds of exchanges amongst themselves. It's a step on the way, we hope, to more civil discourse on these boards.

Jo, your use of the terms 'babe' and 'flakey' are understandably offensive; that particular sentence sounded pretty patronizing.

Miss Scarlett, it does appear you read something different into what Jo was saying about femmes s/he (unsure of pronoun preference) knows. We do appreciate you offering to continue the conversation via PM.

Bit, you're right; we should all work a little harder to make new members feel welcome.......particularly those who are knew to the b/f community in general. Your address to Miss Scarlett probably sounded a little more terse than it needed to, so we encourage you to think about that in future postings. If you see a post you find highly offensive and feel you might not be able to have a constructive exchange with the individual, feel free to report it and allow the mod team to look over the post.

Seriously, thank you all for working to handle the misunderstandings amongst yourselves. It is greatly appreciated.

Please do not derail further by responding to this moderation in the thread. If you have pertinent questions regarding this, shoot me a private message.

Thinker (moderator)

[Silverseastar]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.

Hi EnderD,

I'm happy to have whomever do whatever they please in almost all aspects of life, clothing included. I also agree that working on breaking stereotypes is fantastic in theory. However we as humans use stereotypes to make discriminatory judgements, necessary ones, all the time. Therefore I find it highly unlikely that we will be doing away with them anytime soon.

For example, if I know what "butch" looks like it helps me to know how to relate. If a butch dresses in feminine clothing, but calls themselves butch, I will have a hard time knowing how to approach/relate to them. I say this because there are distinct ways of being in the world and relating to others that my butch friends and lover have that differ from my femme experience.

As a femme when I say interact differently, I mean for myself, having to put myself out there as a lesbian yes. To be "seen" as such I need to be more obviously gay. That includes stating upfront that I am when asked. It also means being willing to approach the butches I'm interested in. Knowing who to look for helps.

[Chancie]

I personally love a yummy butch in worn out jeans and a button down shirt but

Just because I see someone who appears to be female bodied, wearing worn out jeans and a button down shirt,

That doesn't mean that they identify as a butch.

Just as I don't care to be pigeon holed based on my attire,

I choose not to make assumptions about someone's gender based on their aesthetic and practical choices.

[Silverseastar]

I agree, it is not good to make assumptions based solely on clothing. My goodness can you imagine all the errors in judgement that could cause?

I do think it can give some clues however on who to approach and the rest is a delicate finding out from there. That's the truly fun part!

Even clothing choices make a difference in who one is attracted to even as expressed by this thread. Some like casual, some dressier, some a mixture of both. I think we'd be being dishonest with ourselves if we say it doesn't.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like.

Had a funny experience about this just the other day...

Ever since Scoote and I started house-hunting, we've been dealing with realtors, mortgage brokers, etc. together. We say "my partner" when referring to each other. We hold hands. We talk about our kids. It's pretty apparent to everyone that we're a couple.

Through that entire time, we had no negative feedback at all. Total acceptance.

Last week, the A/C repair guy had to come service the central air. I was out picking up my son when he arrived, so he talked to Scoote. She was wearing cargo shorts, a sleeveless shirt....both from the men's department no doubt...and a baseball cap. Since stuff was in my name, she did the "my partner" thing. He was fine, as everyone has been, and went to work.

Not long after, I pulled up with Rooster. I started talking to him while I was still in the car (since he was in the driveway getting tools from his truck). When I stepped out, he did a momentary "freeze, double-take, reset" and then kept talking.

I guess he didn't expect the other half of the "lesbian couple" to be wearing a flowered dress that went to mid-calf.

My feeling is what Gloria Steinem said when people commented on how good she looked "for her age" when she turned 40 (at a time when women tended to lie about their age on principle)....."this is what 40 looks like."

Well, "this is what gay looks like".....my version. Everyone else has their own.....dapper or sloppy, femme or butch, or somewhere in between. I'm all about being yourself, however that looks.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Bit

In my experience over on this side of the pond, people have said such things--or the equivalent: that a femme cannot wear men's clothing without magically turning herself into a butch--because they have rigid ideas about the meaning of "butch" and "femme." Some people have been open to a discussion and to broadening that definition; some people have used it as a wall of defense to avoid talking about it, a way to categorize and dismiss me.

~smiles~

These people have obviously NEVER seen me in men's clothing. I have a sexy as Hell, black on black suit that I wear when I want to attract extra attention and I can assure you that I have never been mistaken for a butch woman.

Ideas should be flexible, and minds open.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Chancie

I personally love a yummy butch in worn out jeans and a button down shirt...

Yummy visual!!!