Ode to Butches

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel annoyed.

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

[FeminineAllure]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

FeminineAllure,

I know your Ode is heartfelt, and I am sure many butches appreciate it.

I am not writing this now to hurt your feelings or attack you, but I found this line too interesting and (after thinking about it for quite some time!) feel compelled to ask a question regarding it.

Why would a butch have any more scent of testosterone than I as a femme?

Even with an endrocine disorder (such as PCOS), where there may be a hormonal imbalance, I don't think one would be able to detect its scent. I know all women have some measure of testosterone in their systems, but, certainly for most, it is not the dominating one.

Basically, wouldn't a butch have the same basic scent or smell (excluding other factors such as cologne etc.) than you or I--as we are both female?


I just found it sort of odd that butches would be equated with the smell of testosterone.
Maybe others wish to weigh in as well.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my eye caught the word *testosterone*, and I was like oh wow...b/c I never noticed a distinct smell of testosterone on butches and thought I would ask about it.

Good question!
Let me just simplify and replace the word testosterone with pheneromes. Edited to add: I could also use "the masculine scent of your <add any mens cologne you like here.> "
No worries your not nitpicking at all!

[Bob]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

(from signature: "The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us...."

I'm amused.

[Inuus]

I was wondering if this thread is going to get back to what I preceived to be the original topic?

Call me anal but derailing can be annoying

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Bob

I'm amused.

I don't fear your opinion Bob. I am annoyed. Happy you are amused. Have a nice day.

[MizzSabra]

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

[BullDog]

I haven't seen any butches objectifying straight females in this thread, and I haven't seen any butches say or express that they are revolted by a man potentially finding them attractive.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I haven't seen any butches objectifying straight females in this thread, and I haven't seen any butches say or express that they are revolted by a man potentially finding them attractive.

I didn't say in this thread (about objectifying straight women). And I have seen several posts in this thread about how some butches feel about a MAN finding them attractive.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Hi Metro,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about the craigslist ad. I'm not here to discuss that ad. And I already explained my intent there, then. I made an observation about the different reaction this ode got. I never said 'all' butches although I can recall quite clearly that *most* butches responded negatively, one or two with outright hostility. I'm also not the only one who noticed and commented. So unless you're speaking to me as a moderator when you're accusing me of 'beelining' here to discuss 'it' again (read: starting trouble), kindly refrain.

Carry on.

Hi Hudson,

Before your first post in this thread, there were only two direct comments on the subject matter of the O.P. Both positive. Then posts were questioning the origin and crediting sources. I noticed a similarity to the OP and a craigs list ad that you posted a link to in another butch thread, then it was on.

If you didn't want to discuss that ad, then why bring it up as a comparison in the first place? How can you not want to discuss it, but still use it as a reference to question butch reaction which is lately described as perceived outrage, male phobia, and gay-panic. WTF?

What is it you want butches to say?

What more can be said? How 'bout we place both 'ode's in a thread and we can all just vote which one we feel is validating? But I think only Butches can vote since both odes were directed ONLY towards them.

I was one that had a hostile reaction to the ad. So what? That hardly makes me phobic of bio male attention. I found most of it objectifying and insulting:

I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize,
alternatively hated and ignored by their owners.

I really didn't know that butches both hated and ignored their boobs? Huh, go figure.

I didn't like the statement in the ad and I still don't like it in this thread's OP, but I get that this is an ode to butches and the flavor of each ode will vary.

So I guess I'm really male phobic and femme phobic.

Fuck, I'm gay-panicking now!!!

[WILDCAT]

I'm wondering if and how antagonistic CRAP serves any good purposes here.

I'm thinking some folks are mean spirited in this walk of life.

Bully, unbelievable, eh?

I wish folks would be a bit more respectful here. Seriously. Don't we get enough crap out in the "real" world? And the defensiveness is really not warranted, but... folks do show their "hand of sorts" by remaining or continuing on such a path.

NOT CLEAR here? Well, just take what you can use - and leave the rest then. I'm not Judge Judy...

Folks are seemingly NOT writing very kindly here. We generally know where our own hearts are, yes?
__

I think I'm in a loving space myself, but not feeling too much of it here. So, I'm going to run my errands now. SMILE

And I'm not in any defending myself space, for certain. (And I don't think it's nice really of anyone to write or infer such things. Unless you want to quote maybe specific (?)

I'm certainly not feeling "panicked"... (?)
__

There is a difference from being hurt, annoyed, defensive, defendING, rude, disrespectful, instigative and truly genuine/concerned/civil/productive... CONstructive, etc. And on and on.

Plug it in where it fits... if you wish. I have, for myself and I'm quite clear with myself where I am at right now. (Realizing everyone's perceptions and realities are their own of course.)

Have to good day all respectful, kind and considerate folks. Anyone confused, good luck! (Little hug here from me!!)

WC


*I'm starting to think I'm on the wrong site here. Anyone else? Have the aliens landed?

ETA: Oh, much has been written since I began this. Hope it still fits in with the theme in any helpful or interesting way... Have a good day now, ya'll! Really.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

I find it interesting that some butches are totally *revolted*, dare I say threatened, by a man finding them attractive but on the other hand have absolutely no issue with objectifying a straight female, who would probably be *revolted* by some butch finding them attractive.

ETA: Love me some butch boobs!

When one comes into a butch thread and asks a question regarding bio male attraction to butches and if it validates a butch, then HELLA YES there's going to be reactions.

Just as femmes would be expected to give their opinions on a post by a butch in a thread for straight females, femmes, that to the straight females/femmes, feels/is objectifying or condescending????? I may know something of this, by the way.

Why is this so hard to understand, people?

P.S. MizzSabra, you might want to check out motorboarding

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

When one comes into a butch thread and asks a question regarding bio male attraction to butches and if it validates a butch, then HELLA YES there's going to be reactions.

Just as femmes would be expected to give their opinions on a post by a butch in a thread for straight females, femmes, that to the straight females/femmes, feels/is objectifying or condescending????? I may know something of this, by the way.

Why is this so hard to understand, people?

Hypocritical at best that some people are offended by something done or said to them and then turn around and do the same to someone else.

I'm not validated by anyone but ME. If I relied on others for validation...well, then I'd just be insecure.

[BullDog]

Well Mizz Sabra I certainly don't see anyone expressing any revulsion. We are interpreting things much differently.

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

I didn't say in this thread (about objectifying straight women). And I have seen several posts in this thread about how some butches feel about a MAN finding them attractive.

And?

If I would say I don't find any men interested in me TOO INTERESTING... that doesn't mean I would feel "revolted" if they were. I'm as queer as a seven dollar bill. Why would I have to coddle that sentiment - especially HERE on this site? And to please whom? And that should be understood, not "offensive". That is a bit strong to infer ("revolted"), don't you think? And not the way I am at all anyway. (And sorry if someone said that and I missed it.)

Actually, it happens to me sometimes with men around here in my area - and I don't feel anything derrogatory about it. (Well, unless they were sexually inappropriate or disrespectful!) I however, might amuse myself that it surely must be they're "closet queers" as I don't have much "out there" with my yin side - well, that I think anyway. But, I am who I am. So, who knows? That is my caring, humorous side though "thinking that must be a queer side" of a man - to be attracted to ME! Smile.

I think straight men are attracted to straight men. Straight women to women... It happens. And all kinds of variations... (?) So?

And this does feel like a derail now, whoever wrote that. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Seems like folks are misreading a lot of things here though, and there is much confusion for this.

Later!

Wildcat

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hi Hudson,

Before your first post in this thread, there were only two direct comments on the subject matter of the O.P. Both positive. Then posts were questioning the origin and crediting sources. I noticed a similarity to the OP and a craigs list ad that you posted a link to in another butch thread, then it was on.

If you didn't want to discuss that ad, then why bring it up as a comparison in the first place? How can you not want to discuss it, but still use it as a reference to question butch reaction which is lately described as perceived outrage, male phobia, and gay-panic. WTF?

What is it you want butches to say?

What more can be said? How 'bout we place both 'ode's in a thread and we can all just vote which one we feel is validating? But I think only Butches can vote since both odes were directed ONLY towards them.

I was one that had a hostile reaction to the ad. So what? That hardly makes me phobic of bio male attention. I found most of it objectifying and insulting:

I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize,
alternatively hated and ignored by their owners.

I really didn't know that butches both hated and ignored their boobs? Huh, go figure.

I didn't like the statement in the ad and I still don't like it in this thread's OP, but I get that this is an ode to butches and the flavor of each ode will vary.

So I guess I'm really male phobic and femme phobic.

Fuck, I'm gay-panicking now!!!

Sorry Kosmo, but the only people I see keeping that convo alive are the butches.

This (not you, Kosmo, but the overall reaction) reminds me of those "(Ewww) I'm not a lesbian and I don't date them because (ewww) I don't have 'lesbian sex' and ugh, I just don't relate to/get that/welcome that" where identities seem to hinge upon stating over and over what one is not (as with homophobia). I never find it necessary to define myself by expressing my repulsion at the attention or attraction of another.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

Hypocritical at best that some people are offended by something done or said to them and then turn around and do the same to someone else.

I'm not validated by anyone but ME. If I relied on others for validation...well, then I'd just be insecure.

And they should be called on it, but I don't see that happening here. Any more than a straight male being hypocritical for not finding the attraction of a gay male validating or flattering and being free to voice it. It's about personal preferences. Why must I feel thankful for something I find objectifying?

It's already been noted that there were positive responses from butches. So, now if we all don't step in that line to give thanks, we are hypocritical? Like I said, if someone says something hypocritical, they should be called on it. If a straight women is displeased with butch flattery, then she needs to call it out. If she feels that the butch is being hypocritical by not also receiving bio male flattery, she can call that out too (I guess). As I would then expect her to call a straight male out on the same thing.

Not directed at you, MizzSabra, but this is turning into a discussion that is going well beyond what I have experienced in my lifetime. I leave it to all the experts on validation, objectification and butch phobias and hypocrisies.

I need a shower. My sweat glands are coming close to knocking myself out.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

And?

If I would say I don't find any men interested in me TOO INTERESTING... that doesn't mean I would feel "revolted" if they were. I'm as queer as a seven dollar bill. Why would I have to coddle that sentiment - especially HERE on this site? And to please whom? And that should be understood, not "offensive". That is a bit strong to infer ("revolted"), don't you think? And not the way I am at all anyway. (And sorry if someone said that and I missed it.)

Actually, it happens to me sometimes with men around here in my area - and I don't feel anything derrogatory about it. (Well, unless they were sexually inappropriate or disrespectful!) I however, might amuse myself that it surely must be they're "closet queers" as I don't have much "out there" with my yin side - well, that I think anyway. But, I am who I am. So, who knows? That is my caring, humorous side though "thinking that must be a queer side" of a man - to be attracted to ME! Smile.

I think straight men are attracted to straight men. Straight women to women... It happens. And all kinds of variations... (?) So?

And this does feel like a derail now, whoever wrote that. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Seems like folks are misreading a lot of things here though, and there is much confusion for this.

Later!

Wildcat

Now my words I choose are being monitored for correct usage according to you? I think not.

I have encountered butches who are totally offended/revolted/threatened when a man finds them attractive, but turn around and will say "Ooooh, that Angelina Jolie/Sarah Palin/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears/blah blah blah, now I would fuck the living daylights out of her." Hypocritical much?

Later!

My ode to butches: Be who you are, be authentic. You don't even have to work on my car or fix my plumbing. That tie? Go ahead and wear it, if you are so inclined. And yeah, show me some butch cleavage once in awhile.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

And they should be called on it, but I don't see that happening here. Any more than a straight male being hypocritical for not finding the attraction of a gay male validating or flattering and being free to voice it. It's about personal preferences. Why must I feel thankful for something I find objectifying?

It's already been noted that there were positive responses from butches. So, now if we all don't step in that line to give thanks, we are hypocritical? Like I said, if someone says something hypocritical, they should be called on it. If a straight women is displeased with butch flattery, then she needs to call it out. If she feels that the butch is being hypocritical by not also receiving bio male flattery, she can call that out too (I guess). As I would then expect her to call a straight male out on the same thing.

Not directed at you, MizzSabra, but this is turning into a discussion that is going well beyond what I have experienced in my lifetime. I leave it to all the experts on validation, objectification and butch phobias and hypocrisies.

I need a shower. My sweat glands are coming close to knocking myself out.

What about in those cases someone is talking about someone that's not even in the room/city/state/country? You can only call out what you hear or see.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

Now my words I choose are being monitored for correct usage according to you? I think not.

I have encountered butches who are totally offended/revolted/threatened when a man finds them attractive, but turn around and will say "Ooooh, that Angelina Jolie/Sarah Palin/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears/blah blah blah, now I would fuck the living daylights out of her." Hypocritical much?

Later!

My ode to butches: Be who you are, be authentic. You don't even have to work on my car or fix my plumbing. That tie? Go ahead and wear it, if you are so inclined. And yeah, show me some butch cleavage once in awhile.

Oh, but only men objectify, Sabra. Well, men and you.