Ode to Butches

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

It would be irrelevant.

Frankly, my interest in this thread isn't the number of times in which you opted to speak for butch (the one example you provided isn't the sole) nor the number of times you've attempted to police the conversation.

I took the time to compose a post with regard to what I do find compelling, and that's the conversation I'd be willing to continue.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Wow...
Never thought of it this way.
A light bulb moment for me for sure, what a profound statement.

I will admit when I was with my ex (who I couldn't stand) I had a crush on Martha Stewart. I was attracted to her attention to detail and cooking skills.

I was one of those who felt objectified and erased by the ode to butches post written by a bio male.

Hypocritical would be an honest assessment MizzSabra, and Im quite embarrassed to say Im guilty.

I will also say that this site often feels like a safe haven for me in a world where I am often invisible. A place where I dont expect to be wolf-whisteled by construction workers or pinched on the ass while standing in line. Because we know that shit happens in the real world.
And I probably wouldnt have ever objectified Martha Stewart to her face if she ever showed up on this site.

Thanks for this.

Yeah, the guys wolf whistling or "hey baby"ing me don't really get a second glance. Whatever. I know that shit happens. We can't be the world's police (well actually the U.S. thinks they are, but that's another thread).

Do I objectify my boifriend? Hell yeah I do!
Does she objectify me? Hell yeah she does!
Do we like it? Hell yeah!

Objectification isn't really a problem for me, it's the hypocrisy that comes with some people that bothers me. "I can do it, but god forbid if anyone says anything to me!" That is the shit that gets my goat.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.

I am not policing the thread. Mister Bent is free to talk about whatever he wants.

I see no attempt at meaningful dialogue or constructive engagement with me.

[BullDog]

Anyway I am going to take the advice of June. For those who wish to discuss the topic of Odes to Butches please enjoy your conversation.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Anyway I am going to take the advice of June. For those who wish to discuss the topic of Odes to Butches please enjoy your conversation.

Bulldog I always enjoy your posts. But when the personal attacks start perhaps it is time to step away. When someone attacked WILDCAT's punctuation (!!) that pretty much did it for me.
Peace.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

Objectification isn't really a problem for me, it's the hypocrisy that comes with some people that bothers me. "I can do it, but god forbid if anyone says anything to me!" That is the shit that gets my goat.

Objectification, as you demonstrate, has its place (and its hotness). I agree with you on the hypocrisy, and would also say that the intent behind the objectification and what we do with it that becomes problematic. Objectify me all you want, it may be the limit of our engagement, and so what of it? But if it comes from a subjugating or otherwise dangerous place, then I'm going to take issue.

[SuperFemme]

As the Disability Ambassador for this site, I'd like to gently remind you that there are many members who suffer varying degrees of different-abledness. WildCat is one of those members.

Posting with a brain injury can be very difficult. To be called out as rambling and over punctuated is not in the spirit of inclusiveness that we are trying to achieve here. I'm asking posters to try to remember that when responding to posts. Let's practice a little kindness.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Bulldog I always enjoy your posts. But when the personal attacks start perhaps it is time to step away. When someone attacked WILDCAT's punctuation (!!) that pretty much did it for me.
Peace.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

As the Disability Ambassador for this site, I'd like to gently remind you that there are many members who suffer varying degrees of different-abledness. WildCat is one of those members.

Posting with a brain injury can be very difficult. To be called out as rambling and over punctuated is not in the spirit of inclusiveness that we are trying to achieve here. I'm asking posters to try to remember that when responding to posts. Let's practice a little kindness.

Speaking as "someone" -

I was making no "attack" on punctuation/grammar/rambling. What I referred to was simply the use of multiple exclamation points and style of posting that creates an appearance not of peaceful dialogue, but impassioned argument and how that might itself appear antagonistic.

[Bit]

I'm in a quandary. I want to participate in this thread, but I don't want to be part of the current conversation... I want to talk about the opening post, but it seems oddly inappropriate, somehow...

Quickly edited to clarify---I am NOT calling the OP inappropriate, I'm saying that going back to the stated thread topic somehow seems inappropriate... and isn't that ironic....

[Admin]

This thread needs to get back on topic.

And it is quite obvious to me that we need to do some addressing amongst ourselves of the REAL issues that keep bubbling to the surface.

There is a chasm here. A gap. A muddy-ass river of bullshit that needs to be crossed. Or not.

What can't keep happening is that threads devolve into ugly, nasty hatefulness and we keep having a circle-jerk of who is doing what or saying what and somehow at the end, we are no further in our understanding of one another.

I am going to create a new forum. A "Red Zone". It will be an experiment.
Look for it.

Until then, keep this thread on topic or I will burst a vein and send all of you the bill.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Admin

Until then, keep this thread on topic or I will burst a vein and send all of you the bill.

If we had a better health care system that wouldn't scare me as much.

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

___

Mr. Bent, you are completely in the wrong here. No, I wasn't in any "rant".

My last two posts here were trying to be peaceful and community caring - whether you believe me or not, I don't care. I was speaking in a generalized way, except for what I specifically addressed to Mz.S. Which, quite frankly, is none of your business. I was talking about "me". Men and "me". To her. I welcome feedback, but this was uncalled for.

But, this is single most rudest thing anyone has ever written to/about me since I've been on either of the Butch/femme sites, since... Oct. of Nov. 07 (I believe that's correct).

So thank you. What else can I say to that? This couldn't be more off the mark either, but it says alot about you and your personality here - to me. In fact, it kind of validates my concern about folks being nasty here.

I haven't directed anything to you at all. Or again, anyone here today, but one post. Mz S. your response to me seemed full of anger, and was quite pissy as well. I wrote you a nice true from my heart response with spirit of community. What are you few so angry about? I've done nothing to anyone here and try to be fair minded and welcoming of all.

Screw anyone who doesn't like my letter writing style. Or, how I express myself. That is very nasty too. Sleep well on that. Christ that sounds like grade school shit. Are you upset because ONE TIME I wrote to you on a thread and said "it felt like you try and then take it back"? That is my ONLY history with you here on this entire site, so what right do you have coming after me like this? Where are your manners?

And I don't like lentils, thanks for the sarcastic inference there about folk's lifestyles or whatever that meant to you. You do not know me AT ALL. That was senseless.

Peace be with you in the new year. And I mean that. And to you folks who thank this kind of stuff too, I don't appreciate it. But, good for you.

Wildcat

*I stand by my posts. Thank you.

[Linus]

All right. It's been asked over and over again to get back into topic.

Since no one will, this thread is closed.

There is a handful of you here who seem to dislike each other. I'm going to strongly suggest that you all put each other on ignore (go to your User CP --> Edit Ignore list --> put the person who annoys you into the list and hit Okay). This kind of sniping and ad hominim attacks are unnecessary.

If you cannot learn to step back, I'm sure we can find a way to help you with this if necessary.

Now... where'd my burst vein get to??