June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore.

i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

It's funny I never viewed Queen Latifah as *butch* she's like myself I feel in that she owns her masculinity. The reason I say this is because it's a misconception that cultural comfort and acceptance with masculinity and being a queer woman isnt necessarily tied to being butch.

I would be considered a *macha* in my particular part of cultural POC labels. I own my masculinity so therefore someone can automatically assume me being butch if I wore a particular garb.

This is Queen Latifah as I knew her as a wee lil lass:

Her evolution into her woman hood has gone from masculine hard to feminine soft (in clothing and appearance)

I never thought in her evolution as a woman of color in the rap/hip hop/urban culture/industry was anywhere near butch, it was her finding a balance and playing with her masculine and feminine traits that she has and was born and raised into

[The_Lady_Snow]

As a matter of fact

Latifah is Egyptian for *delicate* *gentle* *pleasant*

Her name right away clearly points that she own's her feminine person

[girl_dee]

Good points, well taken, thank you.

i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that.

i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today.

i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies.

i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today.

[princessbelle]

I don't think i've ever thought of Queen Latifah as a butch. But, i have majorly picked up on her masculine energy. For me, it's on the lines of Jodi Foster or Ellen. I don't *think* they claim the id as butch. It's the masculine energy i'm talking about. It's there without saying a word.

OMG is that hot or what.

MAJOR swooooooooooooooon!!!!!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Good points, well taken, thank you.

i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that.

i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today.

i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies.

i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today.

Latifah came out in the late 80's, I remember going to a store on Mission St and buying her LP

"Hail to the Queen"


She was AMAZING, she not only wore traditional garb with confidence she wore it with pride.

Her style was hard and her rhymes are about strength and perseverance, in her single "Ladies First" :

This particular song is a Feminist anthem.



"Come to My House" - pens with the ultra-diva line, "Welcome into my Queendom..."


It wasn't until the movie "Set It Off" that the assumption and assignment of butch was placed on her because of the look she portrayed in the movie as a matter of fact all four of the women in the movie had "masculine energies"

The Queen was a continuous movement by the women of color in the hip hop/urban/rap culture women were claiming their space, they did it hard, they did it strong and it SCARED people and changed the music scene and opened it so women like MIA, Nicki Minage.


Missy Elliot is a great example of masculinity and femininity being fluid in a woman she could go from hard to soft real easy and not skip a beat.

If I was more comfortable pulling out old pictures, I can show you in *chola* clothing how I can easily convert my appearance from feminine to hard masculine with just a few accessories.

[The_Lady_Snow]

READ DISCLAIMER PLEASE


*** I would like to keep this conversation as a FEMME ONLY conversation. If you would like to have this very conversation about the "totem person" of your gender please do so in in your specific Zones. If like myself you want to keep it to specific identity/gender ask in a disclaimer so the conversation is uninterrupted. I've discussed this particular detail with Medusa and got the OK to ask for this allowance***

Thank you

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Ok. I can agree that it is our fault. I do not agree that the movement was reasonably successful though. I have felt like Jo too. I did not want to call myself a feminist. I do now. I have worked since I was 18 and have raised my child as a working mom and sometimes I do get sour about the fact that I am supposed to bring home the bacon and fry it and take care of my child. What makes me realize that things weren't so great when my Mom was raising us as a stay at home mom was that she was unhappy and stifled. So going back to that is not a good choice either.

As a mom I think that kids do well when there is a parent at home. Does not matter if it is Dad or Mom. That is the feminist part to me. Balance is about raising a family and having everyone do their part. Mom cannot do it all! That is the message that I felt was given to me growing up. I had to do it all.

The movement was not successful at all for middle class women when the message is that we have to work and take care of the house and take care of the children. There are not a lot of safety nets or social structures in place in this country to help working mothers. That is a problem.

So what is my part and responsibility? One is to realize that the manufactured ideal of a modern woman fed to me by the media is not feminism. That was hard for me to learn! You and Bully and others here on this site helped me figure that out. I thank you for that!

I hope my daughter will be a mom someday. I want to support her in her growth as a woman. I want to tell her that working and raising a family is all doable and I want to help create the social structures that will make that possible.

[JustJo]

This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.

I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine.

I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought.

However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company.

I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge.

I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge.

[Martina]

There were rumors that she ID'd as butch in her private life. Who knows?

[girl_dee]

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

[*Anya*]

To me, regardless of her feminine dress or appearance, the Queen always felt to me as butch.

Of course, it may or may not be how she identifies herself or how anyone else perceives her.

I "feel" butch/masculine energy from women.

As in many things, my perception may not be correct.

I enjoy it when I feel it.

[girl_dee]

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

I think we could go round and round on this one and no one would be wrong.

To me, masculine does equal butch.

Are femmes strong and powerful?

Absolutely! It is a femme energy to me. Their/our/my energy is always femme, even if kicking ass and taking names (exaggerating here, of course).

Again, how I see it and feel it.

[Martina]

Well, I def have some masculine energy. But I don't ID as butch. I just do. I don't dislike it. I actually think of it as boy energy, and it is fun. But it's not something I foreground in intimate relationships.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

I have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

Once upon a time I had a conversation very similar to the above comment with my at that time butch partner. She was hot under the collar about a certain news personality (clue Maddow) and she assumed and assured me that Maddow had been forced to be less butch to be successful.

My retort was that while it may be true that she had to be less butch to be successful in mainstream media.... (I've never read an article about that or researched it so I don't know) who are we to assume that it wasn't her choice. I feel the same way about Queen Latifah.

It's a particularly queer kind of arrogance (no offense Dee I'm using your comment as a jumping point) that we assume when someones gender/presentation evolves from butch to femme, or trans to femme or femme to butch etc. and so forth that they are either being forced to by society or they are being a traitor to their gender/identification.

In NO WAY am I saying society hasn't and doesn't pressured people to present themselves in a specific way to be successful, but I think we do need to be careful not to lay judgements and assumptions on especially successful women.

Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author. I really needed to step back and examine that being a queer author isn't a must because she has same sex relationships. It's her right as a woman/human to choose to put being an author ahead or being an activist.

We put so much pressure on those who are successful and who are representatives of our queer culture. At what point are they allowed to just make a choice without inspection. By default they are spokes peeps and representatives, but it's not by obligation.

Feminism in it's most simple form to me is choice. Having the knowledge and education (doesn't have to be formal) to choose to be an astronaut or a stay at home mom. Feminism to me is also choosing not to judge informed decisions by women. Women queer or straight face enough adversity and judgement without me adding to it.

Your mileage may vary - mine isn't perfect.

[~ocean]

very well said pink !

[girl_dee]

Yes very well said! Thanks you for being considerate but i am not offended in the least.

i hope our posts do lead go deeper thinking and sharing a pov.

It has been an observation that sometimes what i feel is butch energy is
held down in Hollywood or even the music industry.

i do certainly want to be aware that women do sometimes flow in and out if their own energies and not just to please their manager.

i do think it's less popular to be butch - like in Hollwood and maybe that's a pressure on entertainers, i don't know.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author.

Rita Mae Brown??

Fannie Flagg??

Inquiring minds . . . .

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

No, Studs, Agressives, dykes, machas, cholas, Femmes have it. I know I do there's no arguing it. It is what it is. Masculinity isn't gender specific.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

The part I bolded is interesting to me.

I am later arriving in my life to the Femme scene. So I am not quite sure how to say what is traditional and non traditional femme in presentation and energy.

I identify as Femme. My dominate presentation in dress/style is Femme. I don't quiet go as far to say my gender is Femme. Because I don't feel like I have a gender and sex. I've been assigned one. I am not opposed to my assigned gender and sex.

My energy is a bit something I do not qualify as masculine or feminine. Sometimes I flow better with those that are presenting as masculine in energy. Sometimes with femmes and the "I don't know what you are talking about I am just a woman" folks. Because to me my energy is just me in the world doing what I do. I may be interpreted as masculine or feminine (or just weird) by others differently at times. And the interpretation of my energy as a type of gender and reacting to me as if I am masculine or feminine drives me batty. It is as if they missed the point.