Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[weatherboi]

i will thank you in advance for your thoughts and time Toughy

Originally Posted by Toughy

your welcome weatherboi

Let me explain what I mean by 'the bottom runs the fuck'. In the kink world we negotiate what is going to happen. Boundaries are set about what is and is not acceptable for the bottom/sub and the Top/Dom/Domme. The bottom sets her/hys/his boundaries and the Top is obliged to respect them. The bottom gets a safeword. That safeword can end the scene. The power to end the scene is in the hands of the bottom....the bottom runs the fuck in that sense. (Yes as a Top I have ended scenes because I thought the bottom was not capable because of the headsapce she/he was in.)

i have a safe word Toughy...my Ms had me well prepared before we ever met to play. i do have boundaries, and some i have not even discovered yet so we are constantly renegotiating these terms...she is kind this way.

my safe word is merely a tool to for Us to explore Our boundaries...in our S/m dynamic i am just flesh for Her to use...if i cannot give my flesh to her she has the power to go find it elsewhere

The above staterment is a generality. Yes, there are D/s M/s relationships that have negotiated no safe word. The key here is in the negotiation part. All the M/s D/s relationships I know of also have a set time to sit down and renegotiate the contract. Again power is in the hands of the bottom.

Once all that is done........well then the Top takes over and runs the scene/fuck.

Hope that makes sense and clarifies what I mean.
it makes sense that your D/s M/s runs this way but my D/s M/s runs differently and my Ms decides that.

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....
i embrace my power to make me better in my service not to give me power over my Ms or my dynamic...for me it goes against the entire exchange for me to think this way.

[DamonK]

Respectfully, I entirely agree with Isadora's post, particularly the part about the intimacy of Momma/boi or Mommy/boy or whatever you wish to call that dynamic.

I've been known to drop deeper into subspace. Typically, as J, I'm around 18 years old. That's my age range in that headspace. However, if I drop lower, I'm around 6. That's when Mommy/boy enters. For us, meaning MBE and myself, Mommy/boy isn't sexual. It isn't age play really. It's simply a boy so deep in subspace he needs to be watched over, protected. And Mommy does that. I suppose it could be considered similar to the playfulness of D/g. In that deep of a headspace, Mommy is a safe place to go, a place where love is unconditional, basic needs are secured, a place to feel safe from the rest of the world with Monkey.

Yes, I have a stuffed Monkey named George. And yes, he's Curious George.

However, I call him Monkey.

I wouldn't change this aspect either. As MBE has a babygirl side and a submissive side, I have a babyboy side and a submissive side.

J

[weatherboi]

hi Liam-
the *derision* i experinece is not within my leather community. it is specific to the butch femme community.

with permission from my Ms i will share an experience with you. i was lucky enough to get to escort her to a butch femme event not to long ago. previous to arriving the Ms understood my excitement for this would be my first butch femme event. i was particularly excited about meeting specific people. upon arrival of the event i was introduced to a butch friend of hers that i genuinely looked forward to meeting. he was very dismissive and as the night went on he was even more disrespectful. when my Ms discussed it with me later we understood together it was an experience that stems from him seeing me as less. i mean do you really think he would have acted this way with a trans that was a Dom or Top?? so in essence not only did his behavior dis me but it dissed my Ms in a misogynistic way...why??
because i would bet he would never treat a butch friend and his girl that way. i felt more bad for my Ms honestly!!

Originally Posted by Liam

Perhaps you could clarify something for me, I'm confused about the derision you experience. Are the guilty parties primarily outside of the leather/bdsm community? Or have things changed? I had to serve as a bottom, before I could call myself a top, a practice which made sound sense to me, one of the many reasons being, to impress upon me, that a bottom is never less than.

[SuperFemme]

I wonder if it is really common for subs/bois to meet people that know their Dom/Top and suddenly this person you've never met is acting like you are there to service them? Like you are a community sub or something. I've seen it in action and I have been horrified every time. The only one with an excuse was the 17 year old who has NO clue about life, and she was quickly schooled.

But is that common? If so how do you deal with it?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wonder if it is really common for subs/bois to meet people that know their Dom/Top and suddenly this person you've never met is acting like you are there to service them? Like you are a community sub or something. I've seen it in action and I have been horrified every time. The only one with an excuse was the 17 year old who has NO clue about life, and she was quickly schooled.

But is that common? If so how do you deal with it?

It's not common. i have seen it happen too. But, no, i don't think it's common. People will hold back from interacting with others' subs in leather contexts, but you can show warmth and kindness and stay in leather protocols -- without any problem. The thing i like about leather is that other people's comfort comes before protocol. If someone is new or visiting, one is not supposed to make them feel uncomfortable if they make mistakes. i like that.

[WingsOnFire]

Originally Posted by Isadora

It has been my experience that TNG is more fluid in their expression of their leather/kink identities and how they flow back and forth is no less leather than those whose role is set. I think things have changed, as all things flow between new ideas/lives and "traditions". However, I think that I have heard way too many Tops/Doms who have never bottomed be less then respectful to the bottom dynamic in other butches. It has occurred to me that serving also is a lesson in appreciation, but it is also not a necessarily stepping stone to top. While some bois are switchy, some are not. I agree, Liam, I can almost always tell the different perspective when you have experienced serving.

Since I love age play with bois, it becomes even more edgy to be a bottom boi. Not only are women "less then sexual" as Momma, the boi is pushed and misunderstood in hys boi self. The Momma/boi dynamic is deeply intimate and even more marginalized from the larger D/s, Daddy/boi/girl community. There is nothing that brings out the Momma Bear in me then fucking with my boi's 12 year old self. Respect the bottom who consents with complete understanding to the life we agree upon (as Toughy says negotiation and communication are paramount) especially when playing psychologically with age dynamics and sexuality.

This is very much true Isadora...Mommy/boy(i) is something I have seen far more taboo in any site I have been on. It is sad that people dont always respect the bottom for what they consent to in their relationship. The negotiation is between the bottom and their top. No one else has the right to judge that but unfortunately some people feel they do... This Momma Bear watches over and protects her boy fiercely. I love that he trusts me to let him be the little boy when he wants to be in that space and knows that I will keep him safe just as Daddy keeps my babygirl safe. I dont care what others think of me as Mommy... I care what my boy thinks of me as Mommy... If hes happy then I am happy..


One of the other things that always bothers me is that a lot of the butch Tops I know would be horrified and angry if someone approached their femme bottom with propositions, nasty comments, corrections and derision. Yet, it has happened to everyone of my bois. It is sad that being a boi somehow you have to "butch it up" and that telling me about hys experience is "tattle-telling" not being transparent to hys Top. The double standard floors me...but as we continue to realize that misogyny has deep and tangled roots, we recognize and hopefully change our behavior to be most respectful of all relationships.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement... I have seen some pretty hard hurtful comments made about many types of relationships... It would be nice to see some of that attitude changed to allow everyone the right to be who "they" want to be.

I have really enjoyed reading your comments and insight into this subject. Thanks!

Becca

[Massive]

Originally Posted by ravfem

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas.

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I've been thinking about this tonight, and yes, rav is My little one and babygirl, so it's partly, but not all of the reason I chose to reply to those two posts at this point, but in My experiences over the years, I too have seen the denigration of femme slaves/subs/bottoms as well as trans/butch Tops And Femme/Female Tops as often as I've seen the dismissiveness towards myself as a butch-bottom and other trans/butch-bottoms/subs. (repeating Myself again I know, but I think this does need to be repeated)
Yes femme slaves/subs/bottoms are more widely accepted as are their trans/butch Tops/Daddys than Femme Tops and their butch-bottoms both in the Leather and butch-femme community.
For Me personally I feel that this does stem from a lack of respect for others relationships and also a simple lack of understanding of the dynamic, I still remember to this day being out with My original Master and having a butch I had known for years talking down to Me when hy realised that I was Her submissive, it made Me cringe because I had believed I had had hys respect and that he had also had respect for Her. Her response was to strip this butch right down, verbally and very loudly, telling hym She thought hys views and concept of My place in Her life as being 'less than' hys sub-femme as ridiculous as hys sub and myself had the same level of 'power' in our relationships, needless to say, She never spoke to hym again, and neither have I, even after I no longer served Her as a sub/bottom. Then again, after My service to Her had ended, and I was Top/Dom to a femme-sub, this same butches small clique of friends was extremely dismissive and snide to Me and My sub ... so what I'm basically trying to say here is I've seen this happen from both sides, maybe My being switch means I will always see this more? I'm not sure, maybe I'll see both more and less now I have a babygirl/sub who I care for deeply and I am her Syr and Daddy?
I'm not sure what's down the road in this regard, all I can say, and say with My hand on My heart, is if I see this at all in the Leather and butch-femme communities, I will come down on them like all hell has broken loose and confront whoever it may be with the simple fact that they, regardless of who they are or how long they've been in either community, have no goddamn right to judge Me, My babygirl, or anyone else, be they trans/butch-bottom/sub, femme/slave/sub, Femme/Female Top or any other kind of dynamic that they dismiss as being 'wrong' because they deem it so as they are too ignorant or narrow-minded to just accept the dynamic for what it is, a loving, sharing, caring bond for someone who chooses to submit themselves, completely and utterly, to the Dominance of another.
I hope I haven't rambled too much and have been as clear as I can about My views here, it's after midnight and My brain has a tendency to go AWOL sometimes at this time of day.
Thank you again for starting this thread weatherboi. I have nothing but love and respect for both you and your Ms.
(I owe you LOTS more cadburys mini eggs I believe Lady S because your boi here's not only a brave soul for bringing this topic to light, he is also, from what I've read, very good at what he does)

Just another thing that occurred to Me, our Leather community is based largely on respect, how can others expect to receive respect themselves when they choose to disrespect anothers dynamic???

[Toughy]

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Toughy]

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

I wanted to comment on this. First...........don't tell me to shut the fuck up because I live in the butch/femme world and I do D/s M/s differently than you do. I know exactly what My dynamic is..........and frankly I don't give a shit what your dynamic looks like. It's yours.

I live the dynamic for however long I want to live and if I only live it 12/6 it makes My dynamic no less valid than your dynamic.

This is a discussion about butch bottom, femme Top and kink and as such has no place for such derisive comments directed toward another viewpoint. A viewpoint that made no negative comments about other dynamics. Fact is we agree on most of those dynamics.

There are less derisive ways to talk about keyboard Tops/Dom(mes)/Masters. More constructive ways to talk about how us kink folk move forward in the internet age.

[adorable]

I know I shouldn't do this - this is one of those train wreck moments - but damn if it doesn't always happen in the good threads....

I don't believe that Rope was speaking to you directly Toughy. Unless you fell asleep in a workshop. How I read that was he was saying that is what he has heard OTHERS say about dynamics (specifically hys) that no one could understand because they don't actually live his lifestyle.

[Jess]

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

[Apocalipstic]

I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!

hi jess

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[weatherboi]

hi Toughy-

for me, the term 'bottoms run the fuck' illicits a 'slap in the face' so to speak to traditional kink values. it to me 'dumb downs' the idea of the power exchange. an oxymoron in phrase and theory. from my own perspective which is not the same perspective you come from. this works well in my relationship.

from my knees i say i can't/don't equate the theories my Ms or her Peers have to the level of humbleness in their hearts. my experience is they shine with great strength and that humbles me.

Originally Posted by Toughy

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I've been Mama in several relationships with boys, one a Transman, several of them Butches; I've also informally been Mama to several bois/boys and girls/grrls, not as part of a sexual relationship but in an extended family way during times that they needed extra support. I am most decidedly not Leather, nor a part of the BDSM community; none of my Mama/b/g relationships have been about Leather, BDSM, or kink (not even the sexual ones).

The gender issues I as a Mama have run into in the community have been from Butches and Transmen, all of them Daddies or Syrs/Sirs who were... oh, a polite way to describe their reactions to me... um... highly threatened by the idea that anyone at all might think they would allow a woman (interestingly, they ALL insisted on referring to me as a woman even when I said I preferred to be called a femme) to dominate them in any way. The impression I got was that it was extremely threatening to them to allow themselves even to seem to be vulnerable to strong female energy; they were only comfortable if they were clearly in control of and dominating that energy.

I always took this to be an issue that was individual to the people in question, rather than an issue that was widespread in the butch/femme community. I see from reading this thread that I may have been wrong, and that there seem to be way more people (of all gender IDs) who are threatened than I previously realized.

In my experience, put-downs and disrespect usually come from people trying to mask their own vulnerabilities and fears behind scathing derision. I'm sorry that any of us ever has to endure that... and I'm also sorry that anyone has to feel so threatened, so insignificant and frightened, that they would only feel safe by putting others down and treating their relationships with disrespect. That's really sad that so many of us might be so badly hurt in that way, yanno?

About switching, it's been my personal experience that my relationships are received easily and treated with respect by people who know that we switch between Daddy/girl and Mama/boy. I suspect, having read the thread, that it might not be such an easy thing if Gryph and I were to say that Gryph was only my boy and that I was the dominant one in the relationship.

The truth is that we're both dominant and--at the same time--we're both equals. I know that sounds complicated but actually it's the simplest relationship I've ever had. We both check in quite frequently to make sure the other's needs are met, and we're both always willing to compromise to make the other happy.

I think maybe what makes other people comfortable with our relationship structure is that we meet not just one but two stereotypes at once: some people see the dominant butch, and some see the equal feminist lesbians.

We just see each other.

[Jess]

Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific.

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

Thanks, Jess






hi jess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess
While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.
what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[Jess]

[QUOTE=Bit;108693]Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.

Bit, I agree. I think it is a great conversation and have received quite a few notes from other folks not into Leather/ BDSM who had felt they didn't really have a place to talk about it ( gender and relationship roles) and thought this was more for BDSM folks.

Thanks for what you shared. It makes perfect sense to me!

[Little_Duck]

Hi everyone!!!

I am not much into posting about gender and stuff since I am like still trying to find who I am and I read ALOT of the things people I know have to say and I like Grant( though not into the whole spankie spankie thing ) am alllllllll about bossy girls!!! (hi June!!!!)

I think it's pretty sad and mean to say that you see Grant as female, I mean I even know at 21 that he ain't female, he is a dude, even our brother who is 9 gets it.

I guess thsi is why I just read, but since Grant is part of our family I needed to show props.

Mad props Grant!!!

We all love you for who you are and that is the guy who was there for our sister during surgery, and is there for our Mommy!!!

That is all I really had to say thank you!!!!

Bye June!!!

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Little_Duck

Hi everyone!!!

I am not much into posting about gender and stuff since I am like still trying to find who I am and I read ALOT of the things people I know have to say and I like Grant( though not into the whole spankie spankie thing ) am alllllllll about bossy girls!!! (hi June!!!!)

I think it's pretty sad and mean to say that you see Grant as female, I mean I even know at 21 that he ain't female, he is a dude, even our brother who is 9 gets it.

I guess thsi is why I just read, but since Grant is part of our family I needed to show props.

Mad props Grant!!!


We all love you for who you are and that is the guy who was there for our sister during surgery, and is there for our Mommy!!!

That is all I really had to say thank you!!!!

Bye June!!!

An apology for Grant if I made improper use of pronoun/ descriptor. Sometimes I get confused by the interchangeable "boi" referring to females who id as masculine and boy which refers to male. My bad. No offense meant Grant.

[Bit]

I get tripped up by screen names sometimes, too. *wry smile* The thing is, when you're making a long post (or multi-quoting like I usually do), you can't see the profile info to double-check, so if it's someone you don't know well, there's nothing to go by BUT the screen name.