Obama and the tax cut issue - Page 3

*Anya* · 08-06-2011, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I am a big believer in taking people at their word. If someone says, for instance, that they believe that we should lock up criminals and not worry overly much about legal niceties such as trial by jury (as a poster here suggested back in June) that what they *mean* is what they said. Well, the Republican party is on record as saying they want Obama to fail. Keep in mind that one of the chief ideologues of the GOP, Rush Limbaugh, flat out said that his goal was to make certain that Obama's presidency failed. Let's presume he meant that. Let us also presume that all of those GOP elected officials who parroted Limbaugh meant it. Now, view their behavior through the lens of their words. They are trying to make certain that he cannot govern! If that means tanking the economy, so be it.

What better way to win the next election than to make certain that the economy is in the tank?

Quite honestly, this reminds me a lot--a LOT--of end-stage Weimar Germany. At the end-game, the right-wing in Germany (the Nazis, the Conservatives and the Junkers) simply made the Reichstag non-functional. The idea was to make the nation unstable so that the German people would vote for anyone who would bring about stability. Doesn't that sound familiar?
Cheers
Aj

I have been thinking this is the underlying issue myself. The GOP, I believe, would allow us to tank, just to get more Republicans elected. They believe, with evangelical zeal, that they are the ones to save our country.

This whole mess is a true clusterfuck (good word atomic). Does anyone remember and granted, my memory is not what it was- when Clinton left office, we were in the black? The elected GOP quickly put us back in the red.

I am disappointed in Obama- I did have high hopes for his administration but maybe they were unrealistic. I just know I am disgusted with all of them-hell, they could not even agree to tax big business and their Gulfstream jets!

Bottom-line, my fear is that the GOP will win in 2012 and then we will be well and truly fucked.

Kobi · 08-06-2011, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I have been thinking this is the underlying issue myself. The GOP, I believe, would allow us to tank, just to get more Republicans elected. They believe, with evangelical zeal, that they are the ones to save our country.

This whole mess is a true clusterfuck (good word atomic). Does anyone remember and granted, my memory is not what it was- when Clinton left office, we were in the black? The elected GOP quickly put us back in the red.

I am disappointed in Obama- I did have high hopes for his administration but maybe they were unrealistic. I just know I am disgusted with all of them-hell, they could not even agree to tax big business and their Gulfstream jets!

Bottom-line, my fear is that the GOP will win in 2012 and then we will be well and truly fucked.

An evangelical clusterfuck. This doesnt conjure up fantasies of a good time.

The Clinton surplus is debated as a myth. I dont pretend to understand voodoo economics or how best to reframe or manipulate data for a specific purpose. This article helps to do that: http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

All I know is basic math. If you have a deficit, there are only three ways to reduce it - increase revenue, cut spending, or a combo of both.

We can continue to quantify and qualify, and expound on any number of theories and crapshoots. But no matter how hard we try, we cannot escape simple math.

We also, in my opinion, cannot escape that in allowing ourselves to go global, we lost (or forfeited) a great deal of control over our own economy and economic wellbeing. This defies common sense.

I dont know who, if anyone, has the answer that will put us back on the path to prosperity or even just an even keel. Just seems to me, we need to abandon economic gymnastics, reclaim basic math and accounting principles, and get our collective heads out of this dysfunctional relationship we have with the accumulation of wealth and power and the corruption of character and values it breeds.

I dont know that the Democrats or the Republicans have the ability or desire to tackle this head on. They are both complicit in and working hard to tame this creature they jointly created.

I do know that, I, dont want to be caught up in a bunch of marketing stategies and campaign bullshit that is just nonsensical and illogical in both nature and content but sounds plausible given the right presentation.

As Americans, I do believe we have the ability to accomplish and overcome many things. But, we cant do either until we are willing to abandon the fantasy world we live in and get firmly reentrenched back in reality.

For me, come election time, I am going back to the basics in deciding who to vote for. I will be looking for those whose actions speak louder than their words, who are strong in basic fundamentals even when those are not popular, who doesnt promise me a bunch of bull we both know is not feasible or plausible, and who doesnt make me feel like I am choosing the least offensive of 2 evils.

AtLast · 08-06-2011, 09:14 AM

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...n-concern.html
Yes, at this time, only S & P actually downgraded the US credit rating, but, both of the other 2 rating firms (Moody's & Fitch) are not optimistic about the US keeping the AAA ratings they are sticking with right now.

They could also downgrade us at any time. Most likely they could do this when the "super-commission" that will be appointed to offer up the budget cuts necessary via the recent debt-ceiling bill. We are not out of the woods at all with this and these downgrades can and will trickle down to both the middle and working classes. In fact, this could very well smack down even further any gains that just "common folk" might be making if they have been fortunate enough to find work after being laid off due to the recession.

I don't like scare tactics (especially when so many are so stressed economically right now), but this is not something we as a country should take lightly or wait for the direct effects it could have on us.

It seems to me that we ought to be sending messages to all 4 of the Congressional leaders (Reid, McConnell, Boehner & Pelosi) that will be appointing members to this panel stating that appointments need to be made up of people that are willing to compromise! Both sides have already been talking about appointing stead-fast reps of their party that hold to the same damn things that caused the debt-limit mess- and brought on the S & P downgrade. We need more of this conflict???

Toughy · 08-06-2011, 10:16 AM

I want the most hardcore idealogues from both sides on the super commission. When they fail to do anything because they will not compromise, all those triggers will kick in. Then the Republicans are fucked because they will have to either increase revenue or cut their precious defense budget and corporate welfare. If the triggers kick in SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans and Senior benefits are OFF the table for cuts.

All those big corporations and big pharma are shitting their pants right now as they will be the ones who are going to face the big ass cut spending knife, not the middle/working class and poor people.

I'm telling y'all, Obama royally fucked the Republicans with the debt ceiling legislation.

The real way to stop this forever is two-fold. Pass a federal Constitutional Amendment declaring Corporations are not people and money is not speech (the only way to get around the Robert's SCOTUS). The other thing would be passing legislation that requires only public financing of all political campaigns. Bye bye special interest groups and all those big money lobbyists. K Street will have a whole bunch of empty office buildings.

Random · 08-06-2011, 10:24 AM

Personally I like the thought of...

The First thing that hits the tables for cuts when they try to hold the goverment hostage is Wages, Bennifits, and Retirement funds for Cong and Sens...

If they are really so worried about our future then how about they unline their pockets a little?

citybutch · 08-06-2011, 10:31 AM

The downgrade was brought by the fact that Republicans are not willing to raise taxes and the Democrats are not willing to cut spending.... and not the debt limit "mess". In order to make for a healthier financial outlook either one of those two things or both need to happen. Just like when I am working with my clients who are spending more than they are making (which is what is happening in the country right now) we work on increasing revenue and/or decreasing expenses. It's that simple. This is a problem that has been brewing with the rating companies long before the debt limit stalemate came along... THAT "mess" was created, in my very humble opinion, by politics... although frankly it needed to come to the forefront at some point. The debt limit was raised 8 (?) times under GW Bush... and 4 times thus far (well, 5 now... kinda) under Obama... There just comes a time where one has to stop increasing the amount one can borrow... and start to work on the systemic problems of overspending when revenues are reduced... Something had/has to change....

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

hold to the same damn things that caused the debt-limit mess- and brought on the S & P downgrade. We need more of this conflict???

JustJo · 08-06-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybutch

The downgrade was brought by the fact that Republicans are not willing to raise taxes and the Democrats are not willing to cut spending.... and not the debt limit "mess". In order to make for a healthier financial outlook either one of those two things or both need to happen. Just like when I am working with my clients who are spending more than they are making (which is what is happening in the country right now) we work on increasing revenue and/or decreasing expenses. It's that simple. This is a problem that has been brewing with the rating companies long before the debt limit stalemate came along... THAT "mess" was created, in my very humble opinion, by politics... although frankly it needed to come to the forefront at some point. The debt limit was raised 8 (?) times under GW Bush... and 4 times thus far (well, 5 now... kinda) under Obama... There just comes a time where one has to stop increasing the amount one can borrow... and start to work on the systemic problems of overspending when revenues are reduced... Something had/has to change....

Exactly....what's the old saying?

"When your outgo exceeds your income, then your upkeep becomes your downfall."

Yea, that one.

Martina · 08-06-2011, 11:07 AM

THe money we're wasting is the effing billions a day in interest. That makes me sick sometimes when cuts to important services are being discussed.

i agree that the issue is the stalemate. i do not think Obama could have done a lot about that. But i do think he could have and should have pursued the financial and corporate criminals who helped land us in this recession.

The first -- ending the stalemate -- is a thousand times more important. But it just burns -- it's so symbolically throw it in your face unfair -- that none of these bastards has gone to jail.

citybutch · 08-06-2011, 11:26 AM

This is an excellent read on the topic. Although there is one error. The US went on credit watch with S&P in April of this year and not June.

http://nutsandolts.com/2011/08/06/te...s-its-hostage/

AtLast · 08-07-2011, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toughy

I want the most hardcore idealogues from both sides on the super commission. When they fail to do anything because they will not compromise, all those triggers will kick in. Then the Republicans are fucked because they will have to either increase revenue or cut their precious defense budget and corporate welfare. If the triggers kick in SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans and Senior benefits are OFF the table for cuts.

All those big corporations and big pharma are shitting their pants right now as they will be the ones who are going to face the big ass cut spending knife, not the middle/working class and poor people.

I'm telling y'all, Obama royally fucked the Republicans with the debt ceiling legislation.

The real way to stop this forever is two-fold. Pass a federal Constitutional Amendment declaring Corporations are not people and money is not speech (the only way to get around the Robert's SCOTUS). The other thing would be passing legislation that requires only public financing of all political campaigns. Bye bye special interest groups and all those big money lobbyists. K Street will have a whole bunch of empty office buildings.

I am under the impression (but could be wrong) that the trigger mechanisms are not the same for cuts and revenues under the agreement reached- that it is very much in the GOP/Tea Party's favor if the "super" commission does not make cuts (to the degree called for) as outlined in the agreement.

Gotta go do some more research... but here is one analysis that doesn't look so great for what the Dems/Obama care about the most-

http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-coh...enue-tax-obama

(exerpt only)
The debate played out as a microcosm of the debt ceiling debate as a whole: Republicans threatened to torpedo the whole deal if the trigger included new revenue, so Obama retreated. It appears he’s agreed to substitute automatic defense cuts for automatic revenue increases.

The problem is that, these days, plenty of Republicans support cuts in defense spending. Or, at the very least, they don't find them as objectionable as they once did, notwithstanding the best efforts of defense contractor lobbyists. That would increase their leverage in the committee negotiations, making it more likely that the end result is substantial cuts to entitlements. (The media seems to be missing this point completely, at least based on what I'm reading and seeing right now.)

Now, I do like your federal constitutional amendment idea- and hell yes, public financing of all political campaigns is long overdue.

08-06-2011, 09:14 AM	#43
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,829 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Other 2 rating agencies could also downgarde the US http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...n-concern.html Yes, at this time, only S & P actually downgraded the US credit rating, but, both of the other 2 rating firms (Moody's & Fitch) are not optimistic about the US keeping the AAA ratings they are sticking with right now. They could also downgrade us at any time. Most likely they could do this when the "super-commission" that will be appointed to offer up the budget cuts necessary via the recent debt-ceiling bill. We are not out of the woods at all with this and these downgrades can and will trickle down to both the middle and working classes. In fact, this could very well smack down even further any gains that just "common folk" might be making if they have been fortunate enough to find work after being laid off due to the recession. I don't like scare tactics (especially when so many are so stressed economically right now), but this is not something we as a country should take lightly or wait for the direct effects it could have on us. It seems to me that we ought to be sending messages to all 4 of the Congressional leaders (Reid, McConnell, Boehner & Pelosi) that will be appointing members to this panel stating that appointments need to be made up of people that are willing to compromise! Both sides have already been talking about appointing stead-fast reps of their party that hold to the same damn things that caused the debt-limit mess- and brought on the S & P downgrade. We need more of this conflict???

08-06-2011, 10:16 AM	#44
Toughy Senior Member How Do You Identify?: pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?: see above Relationship Status: independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 1,826 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,068 Thanked 7,656 Times in 1,522 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I want the most hardcore idealogues from both sides on the super commission. When they fail to do anything because they will not compromise, all those triggers will kick in. Then the Republicans are fucked because they will have to either increase revenue or cut their precious defense budget and corporate welfare. If the triggers kick in SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans and Senior benefits are OFF the table for cuts. All those big corporations and big pharma are shitting their pants right now as they will be the ones who are going to face the big ass cut spending knife, not the middle/working class and poor people. I'm telling y'all, Obama royally fucked the Republicans with the debt ceiling legislation. The real way to stop this forever is two-fold. Pass a federal Constitutional Amendment declaring Corporations are not people and money is not speech (the only way to get around the Robert's SCOTUS). The other thing would be passing legislation that requires only public financing of all political campaigns. Bye bye special interest groups and all those big money lobbyists. K Street will have a whole bunch of empty office buildings. __________________ We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate www.butchfemmesocials.com/

08-06-2011, 10:24 AM	#45
Random Senior Member How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: back in the land of trees and snow Posts: 2,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 8,017 Thanked 5,327 Times in 1,379 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Personally I like the thought of... The First thing that hits the tables for cuts when they try to hold the goverment hostage is Wages, Bennifits, and Retirement funds for Cong and Sens... If they are really so worried about our future then how about they unline their pockets a little? __________________ ~Volunteer~ "It gets in your blood"

08-06-2011, 11:07 AM	#48
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,367 Times in 4,171 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	THe money we're wasting is the effing billions a day in interest. That makes me sick sometimes when cuts to important services are being discussed. i agree that the issue is the stalemate. i do not think Obama could have done a lot about that. But i do think he could have and should have pursued the financial and corporate criminals who helped land us in this recession. The first -- ending the stalemate -- is a thousand times more important. But it just burns -- it's so symbolically throw it in your face unfair -- that none of these bastards has gone to jail. __________________ "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up" - Lily Tomlin

08-06-2011, 11:26 AM	#49
citybutch Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: I answer to "hey you" (either works for me!) Relationship Status: 19 years together- Very Married for 10 years Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 556 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 835 Thanked 1,196 Times in 355 Posts Rep Power: 6220116	This is an excellent read on the topic. Although there is one error. The US went on credit watch with S&P in April of this year and not June. http://nutsandolts.com/2011/08/06/te...s-its-hostage/ __________________ Take care of your body, take care of your health... You never know when the walls cave in and it all changes for good.