Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[Merlin]

We call it gay bashing here.

Have you ever been assaulted for the way you look/being gay ?

Touch wood no-one has ever laid a finger on me (one of the benefits of passing ) but I feel like I am living on borrowed time.

[Blade]

Nothing has ever happened to me. I get looks sometimes, but that is about it. I'm hoping that nobody does anything stupid. I'm sorta like ummm "don't fuck with me I fuck back". I'd ignore people's stares or comments. Now if they put their hands on me I'd be like a fire breathing dragon.

[Ebon]

Like Blade I've never been assaulted. I do get stares and dirty looks which don't bother me. I've been called a faggot too.

Nope never ever remotely had such problems. Just the inevitable looks and 'are you in the right bathroom?' comments that lots of us get.

[Blade]

Originally Posted by Incubus

Nope never ever remotely had such problems. Just the inevitable looks and 'are you in the right bathroom?' comments that lots of us get.

chuckling...yeah I get that a good bit too, or the WIDE EYED look is enough. But have never experienced anything aggressive

[citybutch]

Yes, was punched in the face while I was standing outside a bar in Boston in the mid eighties (Somewhere Else, anyone else remember it?). I was having a smoke waiting for a girl to come out. The bar was on a back side street downtown... and I was leaning against a pole. Some guy walked up and said "Hey butch, gotta light?" As I was pulling out my lighter he punched in the face and he and his friend ran off...

I had a nasty bloody nose... but it got a cute girl to take me home...

Originally Posted by Blade

chuckling...yeah I get that a good bit too, or the WIDE EYED look is enough. But have never experienced anything aggressive

D'yanno I've never experienced anything worse than "F*ckin' dykes!" once or twice or the "Get out of the women's bathroom" comments. I don't recall anyone having been aggressive because I'm quite obviously queer. Have I been lucky in the 20 odd years I've been 'out'?. I don't think so, I think it's more about how we deal with the world and people around us. I am pretty lucky that I live in a town with a significant gay population though.

Eeeek citybutch, that was rough luck.

[citybutch]

Oh yes... lot's of "fucking dyke" comments....

When I owned a woman's bookstore we had a lot of violence directed our way...

-bullet holes in the windows
-pornographic images of men's penises stuffed into our doorway at night
-harrassing phone calls
-young boys daring each other to run in circling the store yelling "fucking dykes"
-obscene graffiti sprayed on the side of our building

I could go on and on...

Originally Posted by Incubus

D'yanno I've never experienced anything worse than "F*ckin' dykes!" once or twice or the "Get out of the women's bathroom" comments. I don't recall anyone having been aggressive because I'm quite obviously queer. Have I been lucky in the 20 odd years I've been 'out'?. I don't think so, I think it's more about how we deal with the world and people around us. I am pretty lucky that I live in a town with a significant gay population though.

Eeeek citybutch, that was rough luck.

[AtLast]

I have been assaulted physically and sexually as both a butch lesbian and as a het woman in my lifetime. Certainly have had more assualtive behavior towards me as a butch.

I live in the East Bay Area of CA right near Richmond where a butch woman was kidnapped, beaten raped and left for dead a couple of years ago. The trial is going to start soon. There have been several benefits to raise $ for her and her partner and their kids.

Thanks for starting this thread- I am well aware of the attacks on our trans community, especially transwomen (highest percent), but we don't seem to focus on the unique elements of assualts (homophobia) on both butches and femmes (women, no matter the sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men). And we need to help fight against all forms of violence against our community.

I don't want anyone in queerdom to be subject to violence. Be safe out there!

[Greyson]

When I was a baby butch about 19 years old, I was sitting in a park with my girlfriend in downtown Albuquerque, N.M. A group of about four teenaged, young adult cismen came along and started to make vile remarks. I told my girlfriend to run. I have an orthopedic limitation and cannot run. I can walk fast and look very intimidating.

I got shoved a bit and I kept moving. I walked into downtown traffic made it to the other side of the street hopped on a bus that happened to be pulling away from the curb. The bus driver was an African American woman and must of seen what was going on. As soon as I was on the bus she closed the doors and pulled the bus into traffic. One of the teen boys, took some sort of pipe, club he had and smashed a bus window as it was pulling away from the curb.

I got very lucky and my girlfriend was not harmed. In hindsight, we realized they did not go after my girlfriend and their remarks were all directed at me. I was a Butch that fit the nongender conforming presentation.

I have had beverages thrown out of moving cars thrown at me as I walked down the street, various looks, profanity, racial and homophobic slurs. I did get punched one time when I was the bouncer at a lesbian bar in Los Angeles. It was a straight guy that thought he should be able to come into the club and help us see the light so to speak. When he saw that I had a back up team of about four other butches ready to enlighten him, he left.

I'm in my 50's and this stuff was in the 70's. Stonewall was only a few years behind us. I did meet many of the Butches and Femmes that came before my generation. They were the ones that really took a great deal of grief to live their lives, and pave the way for us.

[Lillie]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have been assaulted physically and sexually as both a butch lesbian and as a het woman in my lifetime. Certainly have had more assualtive behavior towards me as a butch.

I live in the East Bay Area of CA right near Richmond where a butch woman was kidnapped, beaten raped and left for dead a couple of years ago. The trial is going to start soon. There have been several benefits to raise $ for her and her partner and their kids.

Thanks for starting this thread- I am well aware of the attacks on our trans community, especially transwomen (highest percent), but we don't seem to focus on the unique elements of assualts (homophobia) on both butches and femmes (women, no matter the sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men). And we need to help fight against all forms of violence against our community.

I don't want anyone in queerdom to be subject to violence. Be safe out there!

This is a great thread and bringing to light alot of sadness to some..however I do need to disagree with your one statement about (woman no matter what sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men)..knowing of a few stories over the years, I believe men fall victim just as much if not more at times then woman but it goes unreported due to shame or fear. I have a friend who's husband was raped in a walmart bathroom about a year ago..he did not report it even to her..this rapist then followed him home and about 5 months later when he was alone attacked him again in his own home..driving a screwdriver through his cheek and shoving nails through his testicals and a few other horrifying things. He is and will probably always be traumatized. he is in a support group currently and believe me when I tell you..there are alot of men out there.

Violence against anyone for being human is an astrocity..gay, straight, bi, trans, men, woman or child..

I am sorry for anyone in the community who has had anything violent happen to them. Being femme I have only had to deal with being "the fucking dyke" now an again..

have a great sunday!

[Linus]

Uh.. would anyone have any objections if I added "Possibly Triggering" at the beginning of the topic? Given some of the graphic descriptions that have appeared and that might yet appear, I can imagine that this might be a bit distressing for some.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Lillie

This is a great thread and bringing to light alot of sadness to some..however I do need to disagree with your one statement about (woman no matter what sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men)..knowing of a few stories over the years, I believe men fall victim just as much if not more at times then woman but it goes unreported due to shame or fear. I have a friend who's husband was raped in a walmart bathroom about a year ago..he did not report it even to her..this rapist then followed him home and about 5 months later when he was alone attacked him again in his own home..driving a screwdriver through his cheek and shoving nails through his testicals and a few other horrifying things. He is and will probably always be traumatized. he is in a support group currently and believe me when I tell you..there are alot of men out there.

Violence against anyone for being human is an astrocity..gay, straight, bi, trans, men, woman or child..

I am sorry for anyone in the community who has had anything violent happen to them. Being femme I have only had to deal with being "the fucking dyke" now an again..

have a great sunday!

I do see your point and violence against anyone is not OK. Statistics do overwhelmingly fall on the side of women being victims of violence in the US. Yes, men often do not report- especially if it is domestic violence they are experiencing- which is horrible because this is based upon sexist ideology.

My son was sexually abused at 13 by a woman (age 36)- I know very well and personally men and boys are victims of violence and sex abuse.

The thread is about violence to butches and in the Butch Zone. There are unique circumstances surrounding the types and kinds of violence we are subjected to and it is legitimate to discuss this. Sometimes, we need a space to talk about things that we experience as butches. This does not negate any other experiences of our entire community.

In no way do I think that violence against butches is more important or more horrible than violence against any other group of people. As a practicing psychologist for many years and a professor of psycology, I certainly saw the horror of this kind of victimization to every type and kind of human being. I read the research (still do as a retired person).

Frankly, I take issue with being snarked at in a butch thread within the butch Zone. If I went into a trans or femme thread within those specific forum Zones and made a crack like this, it wouldn't go over well- and it shouldn't. Avery different thing than threads that are in the general forum zone areas.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

Uh.. would anyone have any objections if I added "Possibly Triggering" at the beginning of the topic? Given some of the graphic descriptions that have appeared and that might yet appear, I can imagine that this might be a bit distressing for some.

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

OK, this makes sense to me. I am a little sensitive to not being able to have a butch space. Although, I would most certainly call out anyone that made any that made transphobic, sexist, racist, etc. remarks in any zone or thread.

I mis-read your intent-

I was hoping that the thread would be a safe place for butches to talk about our experiences as butches. And I'm sure many transguys that identified as butch prior to transitioning would have a lot to add as well as support- they have lived it too.

[Heart]

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.

Heart

I'm so very sorry that any of you have had violence visited upon you because of your sexuality.

I count myself even luckier that I haven't had that experience.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.
Heart

Yes we are targeted as non-conforming women/females in the eyes of the attacker. And this is very difficult for a lot of us- especially when we embrace more fluid definitions of gender as well as try to navigate the world as a butch person. This is a unique dynamic that I wouldn't mind hearing about from other butches from a butch perspective. I have not always identified as a butch and value other butches experiences that have dealt with these things for a long time (and prior to tranistioning).

[atomiczombie]

I haven't been physically assaulted, thank heaven. About 6 years ago when I was working at the Harley dealership, I was outside directing the motorcycle traffic into the parking lot during a special event we held. Some teenage boys came down the street in their pick up and yelled "F*ggot!" at me, and I (at the time I ID'd as butch) said its DYKE you idiots!! a bit louder than I probably should have since I was at work, but I was pissed.

Also around that time I was walking from my car up the long driveway to my apartment and some other teenage boys started following me. I could hear them whispering and laughing. I was so close to turning around and asking them what the fuck was so funny, but I was close to home and I didn't want my kid and wife to see me getting my ass kicked. That is the only time I have felt my personal safety was in danger. I just kept walking and went home. One of the boys lived in my complex so they knew where I lived already.

I have gone into a grocery store, only to come out and find that someone had spit all over my windshield. I still get stares all the time, dirty looks, etc. Someone put scrapes all over my HRC sticker on my bumper of my previous car. Guess they couldn't rip it off. I am sure there are other little things like this but this is all that comes to mind right now.

I count myself lucky to have only experienced these small things. I am really sorry to hear that so many of you have had it a lot worse.