June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[The_Lady_Snow]

READ DISCLAIMER PLEASE

*** I would like to keep this conversation as a FEMME ONLY conversation. If you would like to have this very conversation about the "totem person" of your gender please do so in in your specific Zones. If like myself you want to keep it to specific identity/gender ask in a disclaimer so the conversation is uninterrupted. I've discussed this particular detail with Medusa and got the OK to ask for this allowance***



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June Cleaver: Friend or Foe?

June Cleaver gets brought up a lot in our community as a Femme Role Model, a Femme Achievement Heirarchy, Femme Wife Model, How Femme Should Behave.


How did society/this forum come to that conclusion? What is the attraction? Is this part of your kink? Is it edge play for you if kink is involved? Is it a power dynamic? Does it get your juices flowing? Are you wondering how this came about? Do you even care who she is or what she seems to stand for? How does this affect you as a Femme of Color?


I love how in this community we break down things and examine them throughly and listen to one another without personalizing it or having to crap on someone/someones when we do.


Let's dismantle this and talk about all of it the good the bad and the ugly but please, please when we do let's do it in an adult manner and not take jabs at one another.

Discuss.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can't nor will I ever be able to identify with June Cleaver, and when I say June Cleaver I mean by the character not the woman who played the character which is two totally different things.


I can't identify or see myself as her because June is not a woman I see as Femme, for me (and this is me posting from my me place) she's a straight woman and for me Femme is my gender and it's a Queer identity. On top of that not only is she not Femme (for me), she's straight, she's portrayed as upper middle class, and she's white.


I can though in a power dynamic, or kink situation, role playing, and edge playing see how I could maybe attempt to imitate the whole scene of staying home, dressing up, putting on an apron, and having everything perfect for when boy of weather walks in the door.


At this point of hotness I would be role playing with the twist of June having Ward come home, do what Ward does best:

Changed into more casual clothing

Go into the office

Check on Worm

Ask what's for dinner

BUT then, in my Cleaver universe "Ward" would drop to the kneeling position, ask about my day, serve me a drink, and then my dinner. This would lead into other deviant scenarious and BAM!!

We have role play, kink, power exchange and all well in Snow world! I'd am/be happy.


I have more thoughts but I need to get back to work.

[Medusa]

Snowy- I hope you don't mind I made a tiny edit up there and changed it to "if you want to have this conversation "about the totem person of your gender" then have it".

I think it would be a different animal if Butches or Transmen wanted to start a thread to dismantle their ideas about June Clever without us being able to interact. I think though if they'd like to start a thread about how they think about Ward Clever or some other person who has been held up as the standard for masculinity, it's good.

Problem for Femmes is that we are so often conflated with straight women stereotypes so Butches and Transmen don't have a Butch or Trans person to look toward the way we do with June Clever. I do think that Butches and Transmen get conflated with biomen quite often but it's a different kind of invisibility than we deal with.

I think June Clever has come to symbolize the Martha Stewart of her day - "I can make a HOME and FAMILY like nobody else can!" along with other symbols like "pure", "right", "white", and "of a certain class".

I love me some Martha Stewart but she doesn't have the same connotations to me that June Clever does, mainly because of June being in a stylelized family dynamic on the sitcom.

Even my Granny said that "nobody lived like that in the 50s" when referrring to Leave it to Beaver!

[Nomad]

i'm thinking. and as we all know that could take me a while. so i'm reading and thinking and i'll be back. thank you Lady Snow for this conversation and to Medusa for making space for it.

[JustJo]

Thank you for starting this thread Snow. I've been reading the developing conversation in the other zone and didn't feel like I should be jumping in there.

Anyway...I have all kinds of weird, twisted up feelings about that 1950s housewife ideal. I had an opposite upbringing from a lot of women...my mother was vehemently (and angrily) feminist and all of the messages that I got as a girl were that all traditional female roles and activities were wrong, bad, stupid and anyone with half a brain should avoid them at all costs. She wanted me to take shop, not home economics, and play sports, not play with dolls. I was forbidden from taking typing class, and was not allowed to own a Barbie or play dress up.

The problematic part, for me, is that all of my natural inclinations pulled me in traditional female roles. Not because I got that messaging on TV (we didn't own one) and not because I was getting it at home or even in my immediate friend circles. It was just there....internal....from as early as I could remember.

My first career goal (at about age 8) was to be a hairdresser. My second thought (when that was shot down and criticized mightily) was to be a teacher....a middle school home economics teacher. I might as well have been saying I wanted to be a mass murderer.

Roll forward through many years and a variety of life experiences....and I'm a mixture. I've been an independent, self-supporting woman my entire life. First job at 15, moved away from home, put myself through college, single mom, more college, more work, three failed marriages (to bio men....duh....slow learner). Out in the world I am strong, independent, pushy and professional. I make my own decisions, run my own life....and good luck to anyone who tries to belittle, head pat or condescend to me.

When it comes to personal, intimate relationships....much of me swings back to my natural inclination. I want to cook my love's favorite meals and do little things to make them happy. I'll clean house, give backrubs....and I really honestly do want them to take care of the yard and the maintenance of the house and my car. Some would say I am living that old stereotype in my relationships....after all, I want my partner to take the lead in bed....and, yes, I want to be babied and honeyed and taken care of....that neglected little girl inside wants to be cradled and protected and treasured.

It's not kink...but one of the things I love absolutely the most is to be cooking (yes, generally in a dress and barefoot) in the kitchen, and have my love walk up behind me, wrap their arms around me, kiss my neck and try to interfere with my cooking.

Does that make me somehow less femme, less independent, less strong.....hell no.

Both of those are parts of me....the strong, independent, pushy broad....and the girl who wants to be the doting wife. There's no conflict, and one doesn't invalidate the other.

I think where we get into trouble is when we add a "should" or a "better" in there somewhere. For me there is no "should" for how anyone should behave (with the exception of hopefully having some kind of character and moral compass)....and no lifestyle or way of being is better or worse than any other. If we are glorifying June Cleaver as the ideal for ALL women....then I call bullshit. If you (general you) choose to glorify her as YOUR personal ideal...then have a good time rocking that apron and heels.

[The_Lady_Snow]

How did society/this forum come to that conclusion?


I am a firm believer that the way women are portrayed in media is the downfall for many of us who don't fall into the conclusions/opinions/impositions that people place on woman/Femme.

Sexism, Mysoginy and oppression have a key role in the boxing of women. When we come interact be it real time or in online situations some of that bleeds into our tapestry. It's engrained in us and it takes a lot of work (if you choose to) to get to a point of hey this is something I am ok with or hey this is something I am not ok with.


I also feel that people want women to stay quiet (look at our Politicians) and while some of us are ok and happy with that box others of us aren't going to be.

We just gotta figure out when having these discussions be they in our personal hoola hoop (an ArweNism) or not that we do so in mind that we're all going to roll differently and that as long as we DO NOT impose our stuff on others we can all dismantle all the stuff that comes with the June Cleaver phenomenon.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I want to share that when searching for a picture of June Cleaver there wasn't one that really tells anything about "June" herself other than gender imposed markers.

Hair, perfectly prestine at all times

Make up, modest

Clothing, A dress heels and an apron

The apron, it's in at least 80% of the pictures of June if not more though the apron could cover her hips to top of knee to full frontal covering.


Shoes, a heel always a heel

Pearls, earings, bracelet, 2 string necklace

I had to think about it and ask myself:

we really have no clue who this woman is, other than wife, mother and cook.


It's interesting, disturbing and a little sad. It's rough for me as a woman to have a woman reduced to nothing but that, and then I understand that if one is into objectification then how hot it can be and is.

I can't for myself do the servitude scene, that particular role isn't appealing to me because it's not natural since I can't begin to understand that I must submit.

[Beloved]

I can't comment on June Cleaver because I never could stand to watch that show. But I think the 50's are way overrated. I would NOT want to go back to that era. As Bully, Princess Belle, and others were stating, it was a time of great oppression for anyone who wasn't a heterosexual white male. "The good ol' days" are a myth.

[thedivahrrrself]

Ah, the 50's - love the fashions, leave everything else.

<-- still doesn't know exactly who June Cleaver is

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is the attraction?


I am unsure, if I had to guess I would have say that it's the nurturing (cooking, cleaning, doing the mom thing, overly attentive wife role. I can see how these things would be appealing if one was in the dynamic where these specifics were desired.


As a woman who can't identify in this manner I don't like it, it's not for me and I find it to be exploiting, dismissing, erasing of "June". I want to know more about June Cleaver what she thinks, who she hangs out with, what's her favorite color, and does want to beat her kids asses when they are assholes.

She's (June) is one dimensional and my mind is like WHAT!!! It does this because women aren't one dimensional were vast endless compartments of variety.

It's a double edged sword for me, it makes me go huh, I can see how that works and yet it tugs the very core of what makes me Snow when I see her compared to or elevated to Femme personification.

[Gráinne]

What's interesting to me, and I might be all wrong, is that all these idealized women like June, Donna Reed, Harriet Nelson, Lucy (to some extent, though her goal was always a career) and even Ma Ingalls all came about during or just after a period of great social upheaval, especially for women. WWII saw women working in great numbers; the '60's were a time of racial and political upheaval, and the '70's were marked by an unpopular foreign war and Watergate. I know that's incredibly simplistic, but interesting to me.

I don't think the people who wrote those programs necessarily thought they reflected reality in any way, or even some idealized way of living, but they were escapism. Even today, I don't want to watch programs about people struggling with their kids or in crumbling relationships-I've lived that! And much of TV, with few exceptions, until All In The Family and its spinoffs (especially Good Times), did not portray people of color in "real" lives with all its pain and struggles. To be blunt, probably more upper middle class whites owned TV sets back then, and so they were more likely to want to watch programs about people just like them (if idealized).

Even as fictional, unrealistic characters, I don't think all these women were necessarily "bad" for Femmes or detrimental. It's all in balance and applying what qualities appeal and disregarding the rest of the messages. As a mother myself, I'm far from any of them (maybe a few rungs above Peg Bundy), but June, Donna and Caroline Ingalls were patient, fair and yet held high expectations for their "children". That's something I can take from the shows.

I don't think there's anything nefarious in itself in wanting to keep an orderly, tidy home for one's children or partner-as Jo says, that quality doesn't take away from independence or smarts (and she is wicked smart ). Ma was portrayed as independent and willing to work when circumstances demanded it. All these women, even Lucy, showed initiative, thinking, and service.

I think we have to remember that TV reflected what was going on in society during that time, as unenlightened as it seems today. The 1950's were not that far off from Amos n' Andy on radio, or truly offensive Bugs Bunny cartoons. And maybe June herself isn't the role model, but some of the qualities that she and the other mother figures (I might even throw in Kitty on Bonanza) of the time embodied appeal today, when so much seems unsure and more "callous".

I'm not sure if I made any sense, and apologies if I offended in any way.

[aishah]

i am so very happy to have missed the part where somebody brought up june cleaver as a role model. (although i guess in the old-fashioned thread and other threads that might have been an undertone in the conversation.) cause that gets me about fifty different kinds of pissed.

to me, there is no way she is a femme role model because she is straight and she is the paragon of heteronormativity. to me, being femme is largely about interpreting femininity in ways that are queer and subversive. being femme, for me, is about resisting colonialism and sexism. i don't see june cleaver as queer or subversive...i see the whole 1950s housewife thing as straight up sexist and colonialist. although i know some people who claim nowadays that they identify very strongly with the 1950s housewife thing because they find it subversive...i sure as hell don't.

i'm indigenous and poor and i was raised by a family full of single mothers. nobody wore heels or aprons. i don't think my mom ever baked a batch of cookies in her life. the idea that somebody like june cleaver is supposed to be a role model to me is really offensive and fucking disgusting, to be honest with you.

i love taking care of people and sometimes service as a form of play can be hot, though not necessarily in a heteronormative/1950s context.

my femme role models are mostly other queer/trans* disabled femmes of color and indigenous femmes. and working & hustling class femmes.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

to me, being femme is largely about interpreting femininity in ways that are queer and subversive.

It is not to me. My femininity is really very like my mother's. I actually do feel that it connects me to straight women in many ways, and I celebrate that. I actually think it's dangerous to repudiate that. But that's another thread. (I actually wrote a paper on this, which I presented to a bored crowd at the first femme conference. It's a pet peeve of mine.)

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

It is not to me. My femininity is really very like my mother's. I actually do feel that it connects me to straight women in many ways, and I celebrate that. I actually think it's dangerous to repudiate that. But that's another thread. (I actually wrote a paper on this, which I presented to a bored crowd at the first femme conference. It's a pet peeve of mine.)

i'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on that. i definitely don't ever see my views on this changing but i'm curious to know how others understand femme for themselves.

i don't think any one view of femme should be or is universal, but for me at least, june cleaver as a paragon of what it means to be femme is absolutely fucked up. and really soul crushing. i'm glad some people see it differently...femme can hold so many different meanings for different people. but for me, to embrace june cleaver as a role model would be dangerous. not the other way around.

(i guess in many ways my femininity is like my mother's, too, but my mother was the antithesis of june cleaver, LOL.)

[Martina]

Yeah, my mother, not June Cleaver. What I was disagreeing with -- for me -- was femme as by definition subversive, femme as performing femininity free from sexism and oppression (would that were true). That shit gets way old.

Originally Posted by aishah

i'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on that. i definitely don't ever see my views on this changing but i'm curious to know how others understand femme for themselves.

i don't think any one view of femme should be or is universal, but for me at least, june cleaver as a paragon of what it means to be femme is absolutely fucked up. and really soul crushing. i'm glad some people see it differently...femme can hold so many different meanings for different people. but for me, to embrace june cleaver as a role model would be dangerous. not the other way around.

(i guess in many ways my femininity is like my mother's, too, but my mother was the antithesis of june cleaver, LOL.)

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

Yeah, my mother, not June Cleaver. What I was disagreeing with -- for me -- was femme as by definition subversive, femme as performing femininity free from sexism and oppression (would that were true). That shit gets way old.

okay, i'm trying to wrap my head around that. i don't think it's possible to perform femininity (or anything) free from sexism and oppression. i also don't necessarily see being femme as a performance but as an identity. but as someone who has experienced being shamed a LOT for being femme, among other things, to celebrate queer femininity as a form of resistance is empowering - to me, anyway.

in another thread (i don't remember which), there was a discussion of butch as a form of queer masculinity (specifically as butch being -queer- masculinity). in a world where sexism, transmisogyny, and heteronormativity are what is celebrated and what we are measured against as human beings, personally, i'm not interested in celebrating or embodying more of the same.

i'm even more disgusted by june cleaver as an icon in particular because she is white and middle/upper class, and honestly, as a poor indigenous woman, it gets REALLY fucking old to be compared or measured against some sort of white middle/upper class feminine ideal. i mean, it makes me REALLY sick. because that shit has been going on forever and it is disgusting and it is everywhere and it is pushed on me all the time. fuck that.

edited to add: i would rather celebrate leah lakshmi piepzna-samarasinha, aurora levins morales, audre lorde, june jordan, frida kahlo, minnie bruce pratt, chrystos, or any number of other femmes who have lives and experiences that in some way resemble my own, and who are doing really amazing shit for themselves and their communities. not a woman who i've always been told i (and women like me) should kill ourselves to be like and who i could never possibly measure up to even if i really wanted to.

[kittygrrl]

June Cleaver?..funny I grew wishing my mom could be..she was the only mom on our block divorced & working..a distinction which upset my world in so many ways..June, was a tv ideal and fun to watch as a kid and forget childhood woes and when i had my babies I have to admit I would ask myself from time to time "What would June Cleaver do?" It brought back memories of home, having grown up, I realized it was more perfect then I gave it credit for back then..I don't believe there is anything too wrong with having an ideal especially if you're not sure what it is you want..it's a good place to start, but that's all..at some point we grow up and realize we can shape our destiny, we can imagine & be whoever we want to be..then it's all about energy (given time)..(imo)

[Ms. Meander]

When I think of June Cleaver in this context, I think only of what has become the iconic image. Mostly her appearance/style, and then the “Martha Stewart” qualities that others have mentioned. I’ve never thought of her as a Femme role model or ideal. It’s all about personal preference, choice, and point of view.

When I was coming up and out, it was sort of at the tail-end of lesbian feminism’s androgyny days - the time when rejecting all traditional gender roles and hetero-normative expectations was required or one risked ridicule and alienation. But there was that butch-femme pulse underneath all along and I picked up on it right away. I felt at home with it – I felt subversive.

To me June Cleaver represents subversion. Because I took their straight-laced, heterosexual icon and turned her into a deviant. At least when I am channeling her, she is deviant. It’s a sort-of reclaiming of femininity and certain other qualities but then using them as I wish – NOT how they are prescribed or forced upon me nonconsensually.

I can cook a great meal and keep a nice home, and look fabulous doing it. Because I want to. Until I don’t want to – then June gets put away. Maybe I’ll pull out her apron and heels later for fun – I’m sure Ward and June never dreamed of some of the things that will happen next. Subversive, I tell you.

[Martina]

The wife I wanted to be was Nora Charles from The Thin Man series. I think I wrote about this before on another thread. Maybe on the other site. Anyway, she is beautiful. They are in love. And she is dignified and lady like, but they party constantly and she is a total smart-ass. It was unheard of for those things to come together. Well, not unheard of. Of course, that was the thirties and forties, better times for depictions of women in film.

But I loved the fact that she was rich and her husband wasn't. Although there was a class difference, which they played with, she was never a snob. They occasionally -- well, often -- made fun of her attempts to solve crimes, but her guesses often lead her husband to the real killer.

What I liked about Nora was that she was grown up and married, but she was still having FUN. You never saw women like that. She was surrounded by chaos, dressed in silk and fur, drinking and laughing and happily in love. I was like, "That's the way to do it." Much later, I learned that the character was based on Lillian Hellman.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

[CENTER][SIZE=4]

June Cleaver gets brought up a lot in our community as a Femme Role Model, a Femme Achievement Heirarchy, Femme Wife Model, How Femme Should Behave.


How did society/this forum come to that conclusion? What is the attraction? Is this part of your kink? Is it edge play for you if kink is involved? Is it a power dynamic? Does it get your juices flowing? Are you wondering how this came about? Do you even care who she is or what she seems to stand for? How does this affect you as a Femme of Color?


I love how in this community we break down things and examine them throughly and listen to one another without personalizing it or having to crap on someone/someones when we do.


Let's dismantle this and talk about all of it the good the bad and the ugly but please, please when we do let's do it in an adult manner and not take jabs at one another.

Discuss.

I'm loving this thread and the honesty that is flowing through it. It's nice to see hard topics, addressed without rancor.


1: I think, society and this forum have come to that conclusion for a number of reasons. Most have already been address here but for me, it's as simple as....it's what society knew. How are people supposed to want something that is outside of their realm of normal? Which is why I thank god that there are members of society who step out of the pack and say NO!!

As for this forum....well, unfortunately I think because of MANY years of trying to claim space for people who are *different,* we've created many different types of thinking about what is right, not right, acceptable or nonacceptable for *us*

Also, I feel that because of the expectations we place on others like us, but NOT us, we've created a rift, even between each other. What I mean by that is some folks have strong feelings about what it means to be a woman and what SHOULD be expected from a woman, especially a gay/lesbian/put your word in please. Because of the fight they went through to be accepted for who they are, some may have gotten so far away from the original issue, they've allowed it to start again. Just in a different package. I have a hard time with getting those thoughts out on a good day, today it might be even harder for you to understand my meaning, if so...PLEASE ask, I'll try again.

On the flip side, some of us keep the narrow messages society has shoved down our throats, even as we try to navigate through our life in this gay woman/add your word, world. It's hard for some to seperate what has been taught to them thier entire life, just because they realize they are gay.

In that instance I think it's lack of experience? Lack of knowledge? or they just haven't opened thier mind to the many OTHER ways of navigating their world. Or, in that same instance it could just be plain ignorance, feeling like their new gay world should conform to their narrow minded views of how the world should work. Some have created a wierd....level system. You're only a real femme if.....you're only a real butch if.....and if you only do A....three times a year, you're on the bottom level of whatever id applys. Some are just plain stuck in thier superior than, mode and don't know it, or don't care enough to change it.

For me, I know i don't hold anyone of any gender up as a role model. I've had a wierd growing up and for some reason, the people in my sphere I may have admired for a reason or two but i can't say there has been one single person, real life or fantasy world that I have said.....um, i wanna be you. Or maybe I'm just stubborn and selfish and figured my way is the best way. So for me. I don't understand either side of the coin when it comes to people believing they can tell me what should happen in MY WORLD. I'm not like my Mother, I'm not like my Father, I'm not like you or you or you!! And, why the hell would I feel I have any right or it be any of my business to tell you or you or you....how YOU should be, or YOU should feel??? In my brain that make no sense. And it pisses me off when I see that happen.


I think I need to take a break and go get more coffee. I'm out

I have my answers to the other questions you posed Snow, so I'll be back. hehe


j