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Old 11-18-2009, 09:39 AM   #1
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Default Christianity in the Queer World

Man has long used religious belief to control his fellow man. In Christianity this has historically been done through the deliberate misinterpretation of scripture and the demand that all conform to religious doctrine based on that skewed interpretation.
In modern times there have been a few christian churches arise from the rubble of the christian queer's demolished faith in organized religion. Those who stubbornly, and rightly, clinged to a belief in God and in correctly interpreted scripture and felt a need to congregate for fellowship, worship, and study of his word established churches and developed queer inclusive doctrines.
In recent years, many traditional denominations have seen the err of their ways, and developed queer tolerant, or queer accepting doctrines for their congregates, yet there still persists among the Clergy a "queer is bad" mind set. For some denominations it is perfectly OK for congregates to openly be queer, but it is frowned upon for a member of the clergy to be openly queer unless already partnered with someone.
Accepting churches seem fine with same sex partnering..and do not consider their congregates who are "partnered" instead of "married" to be living in sin, however, they hold clergy to a much higher standard. If queer clergy has not the benefit of same sex marriage, or legally sanctioned partnership, then cohabitation with their lover is, for them, considered a sin and the clergyman can be expelled from their position and the church.
I was curious as to the views of Christians on this site about queer Christianity and queer clergy. Is it OK for a member of the clergy to be openly queer? And if yes, then what about clergy in states that do not have same sex marriage laws or partnership acts? Is it a sin for queer clergy to cohabitate if there is no legal standing for the relationship in their state of residence? Would you lose faith in your pastor's ability to minister if she/he were openly cohabiting with a lover without legal sanction?
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:04 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Ozio View Post
Man has long used religious belief to control his fellow man. In Christianity this has historically been done through the deliberate misinterpretation of scripture and the demand that all conform to religious doctrine based on that skewed interpretation.
In modern times there have been a few christian churches arise from the rubble of the christian queer's demolished faith in organized religion. Those who stubbornly, and rightly, clinged to a belief in God and in correctly interpreted scripture and felt a need to congregate for fellowship, worship, and study of his word established churches and developed queer inclusive doctrines.
In recent years, many traditional denominations have seen the err of their ways, and developed queer tolerant, or queer accepting doctrines for their congregates, yet there still persists among the Clergy a "queer is bad" mind set. For some denominations it is perfectly OK for congregates to openly be queer, but it is frowned upon for a member of the clergy to be openly queer unless already partnered with someone.
Accepting churches seem fine with same sex partnering..and do not consider their congregates who are "partnered" instead of "married" to be living in sin, however, they hold clergy to a much higher standard. If queer clergy has not the benefit of same sex marriage, or legally sanctioned partnership, then cohabitation with their lover is, for them, considered a sin and the clergyman can be expelled from their position and the church.
I was curious as to the views of Christians on this site about queer Christianity and queer clergy. Is it OK for a member of the clergy to be openly queer? And if yes, then what about clergy in states that do not have same sex marriage laws or partnership acts? Is it a sin for queer clergy to cohabitate if there is no legal standing for the relationship in their state of residence? Would you lose faith in your pastor's ability to minister if she/he were openly cohabiting with a lover without legal sanction?


After our abbreviated discussions about this, I'm sure You won't be surprised when I say that I wouldn't have an issue at all with my pastor's ability to minister if he/she were openly living in a gay/lesbian, etc. relationship without legal sanction. Or single, either, and living an openly gay life.

First, I believe that a relationship ~ whether within the clergy or not ~ is sacred and goes beyond what any court could sanction.

Is it ok for clergy to be queer? Certainly. It is a part of who they are, just as being left~handed might be....I don't mean to trivialize, but really, it is just a portion of the person, is it not?

When the "higher levels of authority" pooh~pooh the idea, or sit in judgement upon gay clergy, I find their opinions to be more fear~based rather than Christ~based. We fear what we do not understand, is this not correct?

Paul was not married. And yet he ministered to many. Jesus, as well.....unmarried. And we are not privy to their private lives, unfortunately. It is one of my questions when I get "There", to be sure.

There were contradictions ~ I find ~ even in the New Testament ~ about same~sex relations (re: Cornelius) which I find interesting. But perhaps that is another topic altogether......forgive me....I'm rambling!

In closing, I must say there is just way too much judging (and fear) going on about what lies within each heart. And when we release THOSE things, it will cease to be religion and become Christianity.





~Diva



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Old 11-18-2009, 10:08 AM   #3
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I'm a Catholic and I love my faith. The Church, in short, does not condone homosexuality because it is outside of marriage. I respect that. I also believe priests should never marry for profound spiritual and theological reasons. My inner self, and heart and spirit are made by God. My body is made my nature. Because I have qualities which I believe to be innate and given by God, I'm good with Him. But I also respect and love the Church for spiritual reasons outside of the issue of homosexuality and the Church..
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:42 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jet View Post
I'm a Catholic and I love my faith. The Church, in short, does not condone homosexuality because it is outside of marriage. I respect that. I also believe priests should never marry for profound spiritual and theological reasons. My inner self, and heart and spirit are made by God. My body is made my nature. Because I have qualities which I believe to be innate and given by God, I'm good with Him. But I also respect and love the Church for spiritual reasons outside of the issue of homosexuality and the Church..
I am protestant, but it is my understanding that the Catholic church condemns homosexuality, based on their interpretation of the scriptures, in particular, their interpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Now, if I am incorrect, and they simply refuse to condone it based on legal issues of marriage, what about those countries and states within the US that have same sex marriage laws?
The archdiocese in the D.C. area has recently threatened to cease all humanitarian programs in that area if the proposed same sex marriage law there is allowed to go into effect. That is clearly condemnation of homosexuality, not only for it's clergy, but for it's congregates.
God made us all as we are, and loves us as we are, with all our imperfections.
My questions, however, were about denominations who do specifically tolerate or accept homosexuality within their congregations, and do not consider their partnered congregates without benefit of legal sanction to be living in sin, but do consider their partnered clergy under the same circumstance to be living in sin.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:45 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Diva View Post
After our abbreviated discussions about this, I'm sure You won't be surprised when I say that I wouldn't have an issue at all with my pastor's ability to minister if he/she were openly living in a gay/lesbian, etc. relationship without legal sanction. Or single, either, and living an openly gay life.

First, I believe that a relationship ~ whether within the clergy or not ~ is sacred and goes beyond what any court could sanction.

Is it ok for clergy to be queer? Certainly. It is a part of who they are, just as being left~handed might be....I don't mean to trivialize, but really, it is just a portion of the person, is it not?

When the "higher levels of authority" pooh~pooh the idea, or sit in judgement upon gay clergy, I find their opinions to be more fear~based rather than Christ~based. We fear what we do not understand, is this not correct?

Paul was not married. And yet he ministered to many. Jesus, as well.....unmarried. And we are not privy to their private lives, unfortunately. It is one of my questions when I get "There", to be sure.

There were contradictions ~ I find ~ even in the New Testament ~ about same~sex relations (re: Cornelius) which I find interesting. But perhaps that is another topic altogether......forgive me....I'm rambling!

In closing, I must say there is just way too much judging (and fear) going on about what lies within each heart. And when we release THOSE things, it will cease to be religion and become Christianity.





~Diva



I agree, but I also think there is more than a little hypocrisy involved
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:38 AM   #6
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I am protestant, but it is my understanding that the Catholic church condemns homosexuality, based on their interpretation of the scriptures, in particular, their interpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Now, if I am incorrect, and they simply refuse to condone it based on legal issues of marriage, what about those countries and states within the US that have same sex marriage laws?
The archdiocese in the D.C. area has recently threatened to cease all humanitarian programs in that area if the proposed same sex marriage law there is allowed to go into effect. That is clearly condemnation of homosexuality, not only for it's clergy, but for it's congregates.
God made us all as we are, and loves us as we are, with all our imperfections.
My questions, however, were about denominations who do specifically tolerate or accept homosexuality within their congregations, and do not consider their partnered congregates without benefit of legal sanction to be living in sin, but do consider their partnered clergy under the same circumstance to be living in sin.
No, its based engaging outside of marriage according to the catechesis.
The church does not condemn, which is really a medieval statement. The Church embraces homosexuals as children of God, but not the act outside of marriage. Secondly, the Church always concedes to God. But how that happens gets into heavy theologies that I don't need to concern myself. As a Catholic I love and respect my religion, regardless of my sexual orientation, and I know without illusions, that God loves me no matter the Church says or doesn't say. I choose to remain a Catholic.
And really, the bottom line in life or death, is between God and me.

Last, I would recommend anyone to read A Letter to Louise which can be downloaded at http://www.godmademegay.com/
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:43 AM   #7
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No, its based engaging outside of marriage according to the catechesis.
The church does not condemn, which is really a medieval statement. The Church embraces homosexuals as children of God, but not the act outside of marriage. Secondly, the Church always concedes to God. But how that happens gets into heavy theologies that I don't need to concern myself. As a Catholic I love and respect my religion, regardless of my sexual orientation, and I know without illusions, that God loves me no matter the Church says or doesn't say. I choose to remain a Catholic.
And really, the bottom line in life or death, is between God and me.

Last, I would recommend anyone to read A Letter to Louise which can be downloaded at http://www.godmademegay.com/

Then you do not see the threat to cease humanitarian aid by the church in regions that enact same sex marriage laws as condemnation?
I'm not trying to change anyones religion of choice, I just was curious as to Christian queers views on same sex partnering in regions that have no same sex marriage/partnering laws.
The Catholic church requires all it's clergy to be celibate.

note: It is according to the Catholic churches doctrine, which I have read on theological sites, that their views on homosexuality are based on the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, but I won't argue the point.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:05 PM   #8
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Then you do not see the threat to cease humanitarian aid by the church in regions that enact same sex marriage laws as condemnation?
I'm not trying to change anyones religion of choice, I just was curious as to Christian queers views on same sex partnering in regions that have no same sex marriage/partnering laws.
The Catholic church requires all it's clergy to be celibate.

note: It is according to the Catholic churches doctrine, which I have read on theological sites, that their views on homosexuality are based on the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, but I won't argue the point.
Views differ widely, even from one diocese to the next, and the reason for this is because of dissention in the Catholic Church in this century. It's been going on a long time as prophesized. I don't consider it "condemnation" I prefer "not condoning" because of Church doctrine. To condemn someone is right out of hell in my book...that's not from God. It's enough for us to understand that we are oved by God, and to always do the right thing. I can't help who I am or what i feel. These inside things are "God given" for reasons that are mysteries. Anyway didn't mean to get off track here. Hope you'll read A Letter to Louise which is scripture reinterpreted around the subject of homosexuality.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:11 PM   #9
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Man has long used religious belief to control his fellow man.
...and to control his self.

tax.the.church.

-so says the "catholic"
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:22 PM   #10
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I did not intend this thread to be a discussion on catholicism, but a discussion on protestant clergy and partnering/marriage within denominations that are tolerant/accepting of homosexuality.

I am not condemning or condoning the views of the catholic church, or it's membership.

I have an extensive library of theological materials, Ol Jet, and while I can't say off hand whether or not the material you wish me to read is there I suspect that it is.

Your statement is very true, apretty.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:31 PM   #11
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I did not intend this thread to be a discussion on catholicism, but a discussion on protestant clergy and partnering/marriage within denominations that are tolerant/accepting of homosexuality.
i didn't answer, then. (sorry!) i think *marriage* is good. i think allowing clergy to marry is healthy and if a rabbi/pastor/priest/important speaker-person was married or partnered it would (for me) symbolize a more "whole" and experienced leadership for that lucky congregation (all things being equal).
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:08 PM   #12
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When I was at NIH in Bethesda with my sister who was dying of skin cancer, I saw everything you can imagine. Diseases, illnesses, horrible treatment plans that are like a one in a billion chance it will cure your loved one. I would get on my hands and knees and pray to God to save my sister. Anything. Anything. She died.

Next came my Godfather. Same exact experience but his disease was multiple brain cancer.

Brutal. Grim. Sadness. Strength. Sorrow. The saying that whatever doesn't kill you does make you stronger is true. It does. But getting there is faith.

I really don't think it matters how you choose to believe, but to just have something to believe in - Protestant, Lutheran, Catholic, Jewish, Methodist, etc.

The clergy of any religion should have the choice of a partner/spouse. I am not a judge here on earth. I let that be God. And who really thinks that God would want anyone here to be unhappy?

Andrew
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:29 PM   #13
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Very well said, apretty and Andrew, Jr.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:27 PM   #14
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Absolutely not. I believe in the separation of Church and State, which means whether or not a city/county/state what-have-you legalizes same-sex marriage should have no bearing on a church's position. Plain and simple.

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Then you do not see the threat to cease humanitarian aid by the church in regions that enact same sex marriage laws as condemnation?
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:30 PM   #15
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Absolutely not. I believe in the separation of Church and State, which means whether or not a city/county/state what-have-you legalizes same-sex marriage should have no bearing on a church's position. Plain and simple.
I agree that it should not have a bearing on a churches stance, however the cessation of humanitarian aid by a church due to the enactment of same sex marriage laws certainly does constitute condemnation of homosexuality by that church. I see no way that it could be construed as tolerance or acceptance.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:34 PM   #16
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I agree that it should not have a bearing on a churches stance, however the cessation of humanitarian aid by a church due to the enactment of same sex marriage laws certainly does constitute condemnation of homosexuality by that church. I see no way that it could be construed as tolerance or acceptance.
Agreed. And I agree with apretty, revoke tax-exempt status from churches engaging in political (and I feel your example is/can be) action.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:59 PM   #17
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Agreed. And I agree with apretty, revoke tax-exempt status from churches engaging in political (and I feel your example is/can be) action.
I agree with that whole heartedly. I would further state that NO church should withold humanitarian aid in any region for any reason, political or theological in nature. That changes the nature of the aid from humanitarian
to extortionary.

I will attempt, once again, to bring the discussion back to the original subject matter. Should a denomintion tolerant/accepting of homosexuality in a region with no same sex partnering/marriage law disallow it's homosexual clergy to cohabitate with their partners while allowing it's congregates to do so?
Would you lose faith in a pastor's ability to minister if they did so?
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:06 PM   #18
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I agree with that whole heartedly. I would further state that NO church should withold humanitarian in any region for any reason, political or theological in nature. That changes the nature of the aid from humanitarian
to extortionary.

I will attempt, once again, to bring the discussion back to the original subject matter. Should a denomintion tolerant/accepting of homosexuality in a region with no same sex partnering/marriage law disallow it's homosexual clergy to cohabitate with their partners while allowing it's congregates to do so?
Would you lose faith in a pastor's ability to minister if they did so?

I'm not a Christian nor religious but I will say yes, they should. In fact, if they truly are tolerant/accepting of homosexuality perhaps they could provide some 'humanitarian aid' to promote legislation that would allow their clergy to marry in their regions.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:14 PM   #19
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I agree with that whole heartedly. I would further state that NO church should withold humanitarian aid in any region for any reason, political or theological in nature. That changes the nature of the aid from humanitarian
to extortionary.

I will attempt, once again, to bring the discussion back to the original subject matter. Should a denomintion tolerant/accepting of homosexuality in a region with no same sex partnering/marriage law disallow it's homosexual clergy to cohabitate with their partners while allowing it's congregates to do so?
Would you lose faith in a pastor's ability to minister if they did so?

Paragraph I. No church SHOULD withhold humanitarian aid, but they WILL and DO. At this point, a church ~ or body of congregants ~ ceases to be humanitarian, and become hypocrites.

Paragraph II. I believe tolerance should be equal or both congregants and clergy in the areas of marriage.

And no, I would not lose faith in my pastor's ability to minister were he/she to marry.

Additionally ~ and perhaps this is a "whole 'nother can o' worms" ~ perhaps if a certain Pope~led religion were to allow said marriages, there would not be such a high incident of sexually inappropriate behavior within its ranks.'


~Diva



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Old 11-18-2009, 09:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Diva View Post


Additionally ~ and perhaps this is a "whole 'nother can o' worms" ~ perhaps if a certain Pope~led religion were to allow said marriages, there would not be such a high incident of sexually inappropriate behavior within its ranks.

The incidence of pedophilia among clergy in the Catholic Church has nothing to do with their inability to marry.

And absolutely, churches should be taxed. It's positively obscene, the amount of wealth 'churches' (and not just the Catholics) are able to amass, primarily because of their tax-exempt status. Want to make money fast? Start your own quasi-Christian feel-good Joyce Meyer-esque 'church'.
Considering the amount of politicking going on from the pulpit, they should be viewed as political organizations with a thin veneer of questionable Christian theology.
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