Christianity in the Queer World

[Ozio]

Man has long used religious belief to control his fellow man. In Christianity this has historically been done through the deliberate misinterpretation of scripture and the demand that all conform to religious doctrine based on that skewed interpretation.
In modern times there have been a few christian churches arise from the rubble of the christian queer's demolished faith in organized religion. Those who stubbornly, and rightly, clinged to a belief in God and in correctly interpreted scripture and felt a need to congregate for fellowship, worship, and study of his word established churches and developed queer inclusive doctrines.
In recent years, many traditional denominations have seen the err of their ways, and developed queer tolerant, or queer accepting doctrines for their congregates, yet there still persists among the Clergy a "queer is bad" mind set. For some denominations it is perfectly OK for congregates to openly be queer, but it is frowned upon for a member of the clergy to be openly queer unless already partnered with someone.
Accepting churches seem fine with same sex partnering..and do not consider their congregates who are "partnered" instead of "married" to be living in sin, however, they hold clergy to a much higher standard. If queer clergy has not the benefit of same sex marriage, or legally sanctioned partnership, then cohabitation with their lover is, for them, considered a sin and the clergyman can be expelled from their position and the church.
I was curious as to the views of Christians on this site about queer Christianity and queer clergy. Is it OK for a member of the clergy to be openly queer? And if yes, then what about clergy in states that do not have same sex marriage laws or partnership acts? Is it a sin for queer clergy to cohabitate if there is no legal standing for the relationship in their state of residence? Would you lose faith in your pastor's ability to minister if she/he were openly cohabiting with a lover without legal sanction?

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Ozio

Man has long used religious belief to control his fellow man. In Christianity this has historically been done through the deliberate misinterpretation of scripture and the demand that all conform to religious doctrine based on that skewed interpretation.
In modern times there have been a few christian churches arise from the rubble of the christian queer's demolished faith in organized religion. Those who stubbornly, and rightly, clinged to a belief in God and in correctly interpreted scripture and felt a need to congregate for fellowship, worship, and study of his word established churches and developed queer inclusive doctrines.
In recent years, many traditional denominations have seen the err of their ways, and developed queer tolerant, or queer accepting doctrines for their congregates, yet there still persists among the Clergy a "queer is bad" mind set. For some denominations it is perfectly OK for congregates to openly be queer, but it is frowned upon for a member of the clergy to be openly queer unless already partnered with someone.
Accepting churches seem fine with same sex partnering..and do not consider their congregates who are "partnered" instead of "married" to be living in sin, however, they hold clergy to a much higher standard. If queer clergy has not the benefit of same sex marriage, or legally sanctioned partnership, then cohabitation with their lover is, for them, considered a sin and the clergyman can be expelled from their position and the church.
I was curious as to the views of Christians on this site about queer Christianity and queer clergy. Is it OK for a member of the clergy to be openly queer? And if yes, then what about clergy in states that do not have same sex marriage laws or partnership acts? Is it a sin for queer clergy to cohabitate if there is no legal standing for the relationship in their state of residence? Would you lose faith in your pastor's ability to minister if she/he were openly cohabiting with a lover without legal sanction?

After our abbreviated discussions about this, I'm sure You won't be surprised when I say that I wouldn't have an issue at all with my pastor's ability to minister if he/she were openly living in a gay/lesbian, etc. relationship without legal sanction. Or single, either, and living an openly gay life.

First, I believe that a relationship ~ whether within the clergy or not ~ is sacred and goes beyond what any court could sanction.

Is it ok for clergy to be queer? Certainly. It is a part of who they are, just as being left~handed might be....I don't mean to trivialize, but really, it is just a portion of the person, is it not?

When the "higher levels of authority" pooh~pooh the idea, or sit in judgement upon gay clergy, I find their opinions to be more fear~based rather than Christ~based. We fear what we do not understand, is this not correct?

Paul was not married. And yet he ministered to many. Jesus, as well.....unmarried. And we are not privy to their private lives, unfortunately. It is one of my questions when I get "There", to be sure.

There were contradictions ~ I find ~ even in the New Testament ~ about same~sex relations (re: Cornelius) which I find interesting. But perhaps that is another topic altogether......forgive me....I'm rambling!

In closing, I must say there is just way too much judging (and fear) going on about what lies within each heart. And when we release THOSE things, it will cease to be religion and become Christianity.





~Diva

[Ozio]

Originally Posted by Diva

After our abbreviated discussions about this, I'm sure You won't be surprised when I say that I wouldn't have an issue at all with my pastor's ability to minister if he/she were openly living in a gay/lesbian, etc. relationship without legal sanction. Or single, either, and living an openly gay life.

First, I believe that a relationship ~ whether within the clergy or not ~ is sacred and goes beyond what any court could sanction.

Is it ok for clergy to be queer? Certainly. It is a part of who they are, just as being left~handed might be....I don't mean to trivialize, but really, it is just a portion of the person, is it not?

When the "higher levels of authority" pooh~pooh the idea, or sit in judgement upon gay clergy, I find their opinions to be more fear~based rather than Christ~based. We fear what we do not understand, is this not correct?

Paul was not married. And yet he ministered to many. Jesus, as well.....unmarried. And we are not privy to their private lives, unfortunately. It is one of my questions when I get "There", to be sure.

There were contradictions ~ I find ~ even in the New Testament ~ about same~sex relations (re: Cornelius) which I find interesting. But perhaps that is another topic altogether......forgive me....I'm rambling!

In closing, I must say there is just way too much judging (and fear) going on about what lies within each heart. And when we release THOSE things, it will cease to be religion and become Christianity.





~Diva

I agree, but I also think there is more than a little hypocrisy involved

[Jet]

I'm a Catholic and I love my faith. The Church, in short, does not condone homosexuality because it is outside of marriage. I respect that. I also believe priests should never marry for profound spiritual and theological reasons. My inner self, and heart and spirit are made by God. My body is made my nature. Because I have qualities which I believe to be innate and given by God, I'm good with Him. But I also respect and love the Church for spiritual reasons outside of the issue of homosexuality and the Church..

[Ozio]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

I'm a Catholic and I love my faith. The Church, in short, does not condone homosexuality because it is outside of marriage. I respect that. I also believe priests should never marry for profound spiritual and theological reasons. My inner self, and heart and spirit are made by God. My body is made my nature. Because I have qualities which I believe to be innate and given by God, I'm good with Him. But I also respect and love the Church for spiritual reasons outside of the issue of homosexuality and the Church..

I am protestant, but it is my understanding that the Catholic church condemns homosexuality, based on their interpretation of the scriptures, in particular, their interpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Now, if I am incorrect, and they simply refuse to condone it based on legal issues of marriage, what about those countries and states within the US that have same sex marriage laws?
The archdiocese in the D.C. area has recently threatened to cease all humanitarian programs in that area if the proposed same sex marriage law there is allowed to go into effect. That is clearly condemnation of homosexuality, not only for it's clergy, but for it's congregates.
God made us all as we are, and loves us as we are, with all our imperfections.
My questions, however, were about denominations who do specifically tolerate or accept homosexuality within their congregations, and do not consider their partnered congregates without benefit of legal sanction to be living in sin, but do consider their partnered clergy under the same circumstance to be living in sin.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Ozio

I am protestant, but it is my understanding that the Catholic church condemns homosexuality, based on their interpretation of the scriptures, in particular, their interpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Now, if I am incorrect, and they simply refuse to condone it based on legal issues of marriage, what about those countries and states within the US that have same sex marriage laws?
The archdiocese in the D.C. area has recently threatened to cease all humanitarian programs in that area if the proposed same sex marriage law there is allowed to go into effect. That is clearly condemnation of homosexuality, not only for it's clergy, but for it's congregates.
God made us all as we are, and loves us as we are, with all our imperfections.
My questions, however, were about denominations who do specifically tolerate or accept homosexuality within their congregations, and do not consider their partnered congregates without benefit of legal sanction to be living in sin, but do consider their partnered clergy under the same circumstance to be living in sin.

No, its based engaging outside of marriage according to the catechesis.
The church does not condemn, which is really a medieval statement. The Church embraces homosexuals as children of God, but not the act outside of marriage. Secondly, the Church always concedes to God. But how that happens gets into heavy theologies that I don't need to concern myself. As a Catholic I love and respect my religion, regardless of my sexual orientation, and I know without illusions, that God loves me no matter the Church says or doesn't say. I choose to remain a Catholic.
And really, the bottom line in life or death, is between God and me.

Last, I would recommend anyone to read A Letter to Louise which can be downloaded at http://www.godmademegay.com/

[Ozio]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

No, its based engaging outside of marriage according to the catechesis.
The church does not condemn, which is really a medieval statement. The Church embraces homosexuals as children of God, but not the act outside of marriage. Secondly, the Church always concedes to God. But how that happens gets into heavy theologies that I don't need to concern myself. As a Catholic I love and respect my religion, regardless of my sexual orientation, and I know without illusions, that God loves me no matter the Church says or doesn't say. I choose to remain a Catholic.
And really, the bottom line in life or death, is between God and me.

Last, I would recommend anyone to read A Letter to Louise which can be downloaded at http://www.godmademegay.com/

Then you do not see the threat to cease humanitarian aid by the church in regions that enact same sex marriage laws as condemnation?
I'm not trying to change anyones religion of choice, I just was curious as to Christian queers views on same sex partnering in regions that have no same sex marriage/partnering laws.
The Catholic church requires all it's clergy to be celibate.

note: It is according to the Catholic churches doctrine, which I have read on theological sites, that their views on homosexuality are based on the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, but I won't argue the point.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Ozio

Then you do not see the threat to cease humanitarian aid by the church in regions that enact same sex marriage laws as condemnation?
I'm not trying to change anyones religion of choice, I just was curious as to Christian queers views on same sex partnering in regions that have no same sex marriage/partnering laws.
The Catholic church requires all it's clergy to be celibate.

note: It is according to the Catholic churches doctrine, which I have read on theological sites, that their views on homosexuality are based on the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah, but I won't argue the point.

Views differ widely, even from one diocese to the next, and the reason for this is because of dissention in the Catholic Church in this century. It's been going on a long time as prophesized. I don't consider it "condemnation" I prefer "not condoning" because of Church doctrine. To condemn someone is right out of hell in my book...that's not from God. It's enough for us to understand that we are oved by God, and to always do the right thing. I can't help who I am or what i feel. These inside things are "God given" for reasons that are mysteries. Anyway didn't mean to get off track here. Hope you'll read A Letter to Louise which is scripture reinterpreted around the subject of homosexuality.

[Darth Denkay]

Absolutely not. I believe in the separation of Church and State, which means whether or not a city/county/state what-have-you legalizes same-sex marriage should have no bearing on a church's position. Plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Ozio

Then you do not see the threat to cease humanitarian aid by the church in regions that enact same sex marriage laws as condemnation?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Ozio

Man has long used religious belief to control his fellow man.

...and to control his self.

tax.the.church.

-so says the "catholic"

[Ozio]

I did not intend this thread to be a discussion on catholicism, but a discussion on protestant clergy and partnering/marriage within denominations that are tolerant/accepting of homosexuality.

I am not condemning or condoning the views of the catholic church, or it's membership.

I have an extensive library of theological materials, Ol Jet, and while I can't say off hand whether or not the material you wish me to read is there I suspect that it is.

Your statement is very true, apretty.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Ozio

I did not intend this thread to be a discussion on catholicism, but a discussion on protestant clergy and partnering/marriage within denominations that are tolerant/accepting of homosexuality.

i didn't answer, then. (sorry!) i think *marriage* is good. i think allowing clergy to marry is healthy and if a rabbi/pastor/priest/important speaker-person was married or partnered it would (for me) symbolize a more "whole" and experienced leadership for that lucky congregation (all things being equal).

[Andrew, Jr.]

When I was at NIH in Bethesda with my sister who was dying of skin cancer, I saw everything you can imagine. Diseases, illnesses, horrible treatment plans that are like a one in a billion chance it will cure your loved one. I would get on my hands and knees and pray to God to save my sister. Anything. Anything. She died.

Next came my Godfather. Same exact experience but his disease was multiple brain cancer.

Brutal. Grim. Sadness. Strength. Sorrow. The saying that whatever doesn't kill you does make you stronger is true. It does. But getting there is faith.

I really don't think it matters how you choose to believe, but to just have something to believe in - Protestant, Lutheran, Catholic, Jewish, Methodist, etc.

The clergy of any religion should have the choice of a partner/spouse. I am not a judge here on earth. I let that be God. And who really thinks that God would want anyone here to be unhappy?

Andrew

[Ozio]

Very well said, apretty and Andrew, Jr.

[Orema]

The Catholic Church is at war with itself over LGBTQ issues

by John Gallagher


Pope Francis greets the pilgrims during his weekly general audience in St Peter's square at the Vatican on September 10, 2014. Shutterstock

Is the pope Catholic? According to ultra-conservatives in the Church, not Pope Francis.

In an extraordinary move, the former Vatican ambassador to the U.S. is calling on Francis to resign over the Church’s sexual abuse scandal. But at the heart of the debate is the Catholic right’s insistence that Francis is heretical when it comes to LGBTQ issues.

Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò issued the 11-page letter to two American websites tied to the Church’s right wing. The timing was clearly meant to embarrass the pope as he was finishing up a visit to Ireland, which has been reeling from the Church’s sex abuse scandals.

In the letter, Viganò says that the pope knew about allegations against Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and did nothing about them.

“Pope Francis must be the first to set a good example for cardinals and bishops who covered up McCarrick’s abuses and resign along with all of them,”Viganò insisted.

There’s no question that, even by the Vatican’s standards, the pope has been slow to address the rot behind the sexual abuse of thousands of children by clergy. But that’s not what Viganò really cares about. As his letter demonstrates, he’s animated by hatred of gay people in the Church.

Viganò devotes large chunks of his letter to rehearsing his grievances against “the homosexual current in favor of subverting Catholic doctrine on homosexuality,” implying that several high-ranking clergy are gay. Viganò’s makes clear that his real goal is that “the homosexual networks present in the Church must be eradicated.”

Like most right-wing Catholics, Viganò equates pedophilia with being gay. He believes that the sexual abuse scandal is entirely the fault of gay clergy, even though there is ample evidence of priests abusing girls as well.

Viganò is engaged in a take-no-prisoners culture war focused almost entirely on LGBTQ issues.

“I think Viganò represents the part of the right wing of the church that sees the LGBT issue as the defining issue of this millennium, or this century, and this pontificate,” Massimo Faggioli, a professor of theology and religious studies at Villanova University, told Slate.

“They think that anything can and should be done to stop Pope Francis from ushering in a more welcoming church for LGBT people. So in this there is a convergence between Viganò, who has always been obsessed with the gay lobby and gay conspiracy, and the American Catholic right.

Indeed, Viganò has happily inserted himself into the culture wars in the U.S. It was he who arranged for the notorious meeting between Pope Francis and Kim Davis, the Kentucky clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Apparently, the import of the meeting caught the pope by surprise and Viganò lost his job. Adding to his grudge against Francis is the fact that Viganò was never named a cardinal.

Moreover, in the past, Viganò himself was happy to cover up for at least one closeted bishop. Viganò singlehandedly killed an independent investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct by then-Archbishop John Nienstedt of Minneapolis.

Nienstedt was credibly accused of frequently gay bars and hitting on men, but his willingness to crusade against marriage equality apparently mattered more to Viganò.

Credibility issues aside, the letter is really about a coup by the right to return the Vatican to the hardline era of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict. For an archbishop within the Vatican to make such politically fraught allegations against his boss is a sign of just how divided the Church is.

It’s not as if Francis is preparing to officiate at a mass same-sex wedding. He has carefully adhered to the Church’s doctrine on gay issues. But he has demonstrated that he cares about people as much as ideology, which makes him a threat to the right.

Viganò’s letter is the opening salvo in an open battle for the Church’s future. Already, several American bishops have lined up behind him.

“The corruption and filth which have entered into the life of the Church must be purified at their roots,” Cardinal Raymond Burke, a vociferous opponent of LGBTQ rights, told LifeSiteNews.

But the “filth” that the ultra conservative clergy want to eliminate are gay clergy, not abusive clergy. The sex abuse scandal is secondary to their bigger goal.

As for the victims of the abuse, they hardly seem to matter at all.

[Gayandgray]

BUMP BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!