Preferences changing during transition

[SoberBoi]

It seems like 9 months of T has only helped me better understand that I am indeed homosexual. When I presented as female, I was attracted to cis-females... As I got older and presented as butch lesbian, I was attracted to butch lesbians. When my dysphoria increased, I was attracted to transgender females ("pre-FTM" lol).

When my Transition started, I was attracted to FTMs. Now, I am correctly gendered by society and I am STILL attracted to the same... I am attracted to gay guys, FTMs, and MTFs. I am now a bi-sexual guy in transition, attracted to cis-sexual gay guys and other people in transition.

I still don't understand cis-sexual females, makeup, how to work on a car, or why I have a beard growing on my throat that has trouble finding its way to my face, but... it is what it is...To thine own self be true.

Go figure... So many people get confused between orientation, presentation, and identification that I was lost in the shuffle myself. I am a homosexual.... coool. xox

I also want to point out that more may change too... I seem to no longer identify with lesbians because there seems to be an innate fear that they will incorrectly gender me. I dated someone who would refer to her ex-husband as a "real man"... that soured me greatly.... ex's are ex for a reason.

[cathexis]

Found this thread quite by accident while surfing the Trans forum. Topic is very interesting, though I approach it from a different angle.
Am in a D/s relationship which has strengthened as I move further away from being simply genderqueer towards transition to FTM.

My lover and Dominant has been actively encouraging my move further toward the masculine.

Believe that this is a valid topic for discussion. Hope others feel similarly.
Hence, I shall bump this post.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by SoberBoi

It seems like 9 months of T has only helped me better understand that I am indeed homosexual. When I presented as female, I was attracted to cis-females... As I got older and presented as butch lesbian, I was attracted to butch lesbians. When my dysphoria increased, I was attracted to transgender females ("pre-FTM" lol).

When my Transition started, I was attracted to FTMs. Now, I am correctly gendered by society and I am STILL attracted to the same... I am attracted to gay guys, FTMs, and MTFs. I am now a bi-sexual guy in transition, attracted to cis-sexual gay guys and other people in transition.

I still don't understand cis-sexual females, makeup, how to work on a car, or why I have a beard growing on my throat that has trouble finding its way to my face, but... it is what it is...To thine own self be true.

Go figure... So many people get confused between orientation, presentation, and identification that I was lost in the shuffle myself. I am a homosexual.... coool. xox

I also want to point out that more may change too... I seem to no longer identify with lesbians because there seems to be an innate fear that they will incorrectly gender me. I dated someone who would refer to her ex-husband as a "real man"... that soured me greatly.... ex's are ex for a reason.

I have read on social media of a number of FTMs (those on testosterone), say that they have found themselves attracted to cis males after starting testosterone, when they were only attracted to cis females prior to this.

The "thinking" (stated by both trans people and those of us who work with trans people...again, based on my experience), is that after people start living within their own gender, they can "loosen up", so to speak and travel to where they true desires lie. Prior to this they felt like in order to be a "man", they had to be attracted to females. Or they just assumed they were "lesbians" because they didn't have any words for what they felt (they were unaware of what transgender was).

I have not never/heard a change in sexual orientation/desire from FTMs who dated cis males prior to transition (still attracted to cis males only), nor a change from MTFs who dated males prior to transition (still attracted to cis males, only). I have heard of some cases of MTFs who were only attracted to cis females prior to transition having some attraction to cis males after transition (most often after having lower surgery).

The other caveat I would like to mention in this is that I have only seen the shift in sexual desire to cis males in young FTMs (early 20's). I have yet to experience a FTM 30ish+ (both in my practice and social media) who always dated cis females to start to be attracted to cis males.

FTMs and MTFs dating trans people after they start transition I have seen in different combinations. I see no pattern there.

Again, this is based on my heavy experience in social media trans groups and as a gender therapist for the past 12+ years. I have read no academic/research studies on any of this.

ETA: I have had no change in my desires in who I am attracted to and prefer to date. My preference is still geared towards queer femmes.

[Martina]

When I lived in Michigan, I knew an FTM who transitioned in his forties whose sexual orientation changed. He also changed from being one of those BDSM Tops who swore they had no interest in bottoming themselves to a boot licking Daddy's boy. He also had real issues with women. I often wondered if the switch from Top to bottom was what motivated the switch from women to men. I don't think he could imagine himself going down for a woman. He just didn't respect women enough.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

When I lived in Michigan, I knew an FTM who transitioned in his forties whose sexual orientation changed. He also changed from being one of those BDSM Tops who swore they had no interest in bottoming themselves to a boot licking Daddy's boy. He also had real issues with women. I often wondered if the switch from Top to bottom was what motivated the switch from women to men. I don't think he could imagine himself going down for a woman. He just didn't respect women enough.

I have heard a couple of guys say that they switched from being a Top to being a bottom after they started medical transition. I can see where you're going with him switching from women to men. Lucky for the women if he was such a misogynist.

[Esme nha Maire]

Interesting! Can't say as HRT affected my sexuality one iota, but transitioning certainly made me feel a lot easier about about exploring my sexuality to find out what I truly feel comfy with.

[Liam]

I have been attracted to women since I was very young; a year ago, I met a gay cis male who really had me wondering if I had changed. We really clicked on so many levels, and he was a good communicator, which is terribly important to me. We went out for burgers, ball games, and movies - all non-sexual, and thoroughly delightful. We talked about what kind of relationship we wanted to have, and after 12 months, it felt like we had this amazing relationship, both of us capable of being vulnerable with each other, acknowledging our fears and concerns, a non-sexual intimacy that we both enjoyed. We decided to leave it at that, and it is wonderful to have a male friend, with whom I can talk about the hard stuff, and enjoy a burger and a movie, on a regular basis. Women still turn my crank, though.

[JDeere]

My first cis male boyfriend, before transition was into gay men, we were together as teenagers. Since transition from mtf she is with another mtf and they are a lesbian couple.

So i think it depends on the person.

[Esme nha Maire]

One of the things I discovered only the other month, whilst attempting to help a netfriend sort their head out, is that it's possible to have romantic feelings without lust being involved. We were looking at information on asexuality (for that's what I susepcted my friend might be), and there I came across the information that asexual people sometimes still feel romantic attraction to others, they just don't want to have sex with them.

This rang a bell with me - I can find some guys very sweet and charming - but I'm just not really interested in getting into bed with them. It explained why I was happy enough in the early stages of courting with guys, being wooed, wined and dined, but sex - well, sure, they can do the necessary to physically arouse my body, but I'm just not interested in their bodies. Women on the other hand - woohoo, hell, yes! :-} I want to run my hands over their bodies and have them run theirs over mine... (for starters, ehehe)

I realised, having read the stuff on asexuality, that the reason I'd presumed I was bi (albeit heavily leaning toward women) for some years was because I'd been confusing romantic feelings towards guys with lustful ones. I may well be biromantic, in other words, but I'm quite definitely homosexual - I lust only after women. Sure, I was curious about guys, but having followed my curiosity and experienced 'em... - nah, not for me.

I can't help but wonder how many others - in society in general, not just amongst homosexuals or gender dysphorics - also have a 'romantic' setting that doesn't align exactly with their 'sexual' setting? And could failure to recognise that possibility be at the root of many people's confusions with regard to sexuality?

[Martina]

Interesting question. So you are asking everyone? I don't want to intrude too much on a trans thread.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

Interesting question. So you are asking everyone? I don't want to intrude too much on a trans thread.

I think the thread is open to anyone to talk. But, the point of the thread is to talk about preference changes after a trans person starts on cross sex hormones.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

Interesting question. So you are asking everyone? I don't want to intrude too much on a trans thread.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I think the thread is open to anyone to talk. But, the point of the thread is to talk about preference changes after a trans person starts on cross sex hormones.

Oh, I see!

You are asking about what Esme nha Marie asked about regarding sexual vs. romantic leanings.

I think it is a great topic. Soberboi isn't responding, and there is only a small number of us medically transitioning trans people on this site, so I doubt we will hear from anyone else.

I don't see it as problematic to shift gears.

[Martina]

Well, I don't have anything that interesting to say. I have both romantic and sexual feelings toward women. Every once in a while I'll see why people respond to a particular guy, but I can't imagine a physical connection.

That said, most of my best friends have been men, some gay, mostly straight. I find men relaxing to be around, maybe because there isn't that sexual charge. I am almost never attracted to friends once they become friends, so that's not the whole story. Truth is I like men.

I like their company. All these years only two of my male friends have offended my feminist sensibilities. They were both gay men. Sometimes gay men think, or used to think, they got a free pass on sexism. Uh no. I also think some gay men amongst themselves can be crass about women. My straight male friends would never have conversations with other men in which women were spoken disrespectfully of. I believe that. And most of my gay male friends too. But two of them crossed that line with me, supposedly as a joke. It wasn't pretty. We stayed friends, but clearly I still remember.

I am wandering. I tend to have better friendships with men although right now the two people I am most in contact with are queer women. I don't know why. I find men's company more relaxing. But that is not romance. So, no, I don't have romantic feelings toward a gender I am not sexually attracted to.

[Esme nha Maire]

Dapper, my thinking is that whilst society has tended to take a simplistic view of gender and sexual attraction (gender binary, and opposites attract), in relity, things are much more complex than that.

Whilst I wouldn't like to rule out the taking of hormones as having an effect on ones sexuality with regard to whom one finds attractive, I have to say I'm mildly skeptical thus far. My guess would be that an individuals innate level of plasticity in regard to sexual orientation is affected by the whole slew of stuff happening in their lives at any given time.

As an example, was I going to explore my feelings about guys when the world saw me as a guy? Heck, no! I am not and never was a gay male. Involvement with women who saw me as male was quite bad enough, thank you, involvement with guys at the time - well, I'd rather have died. Only after the world started seeing me as female did I feel ready to start my explorations, and yes, a change in hormones was a part of that process, but it didn't cause my willingness to explore.

Now, I know from chatting with you, Dapper, that with FTMs they are often effectively Butches and leaning toward the masculine (and perhaps seen as male by the world) for quite some time before coming to the conclusion that they need to transition. Could it be that the decision to take testosterone, aided by its effects, is the last piece of the puzzle that then makes some folk happier to explore their sexuality properly? As in 'OK, now I'm properly a guy, I'm happier, hey, who do I really want to fool around with?!' Or do you think that it really is the testosterone all by itself that is inducing a change in sexuality?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Dapper, my thinking is that whilst society has tended to take a simplistic view of gender and sexual attraction (gender binary, and opposites attract), in relity, things are much more complex than that.

Whilst I wouldn't like to rule out the taking of hormones as having an effect on ones sexuality with regard to whom one finds attractive, I have to say I'm mildly skeptical thus far. My guess would be that an individuals innate level of plasticity in regard to sexual orientation is affected by the whole slew of stuff happening in their lives at any given time.

As an example, was I going to explore my feelings about guys when the world saw me as a guy? Heck, no! I am not and never was a gay male. Involvement with women who saw me as male was quite bad enough, thank you, involvement with guys at the time - well, I'd rather have died. Only after the world started seeing me as female did I feel ready to start my explorations, and yes, a change in hormones was a part of that process, but it didn't cause my willingness to explore.

Now, I know from chatting with you, Dapper, that with FTMs they are often effectively Butches and leaning toward the masculine (and perhaps seen as male by the world) for quite some time before coming to the conclusion that they need to transition. Could it be that the decision to take testosterone, aided by its effects, is the last piece of the puzzle that then makes some folk happier to explore their sexuality properly? As in 'OK, now I'm properly a guy, I'm happier, hey, who do I really want to fool around with?!' Or do you think that it really is the testosterone all by itself that is inducing a change in sexuality?

Hi, Esme nha Maire. Yes, I agree with you that it is not the testosterone that causes the "attraction change", but rather is someone becoming more comfortable within themselves, so they are more open to whom they may find attractive. It is interesting when you hear people (in my experience, most often early-mid 20's trans men), say that they realize that they are attracted to cis men after they get on T. Something to keep in mind though with those guys, is that they were young and were maybe just coming into their sexuality.

I have known of some MTFs who were not comfortable dating at all until they had lower surgery, regardless as to if they are attracted to males or females. It is for the reason that you describe....they did not want to be seen, or feel, that they were having sex as males. My experience again, as a gender therapist is that MTFs often don't see themselves as truly female until they have lower surgery. I do not see this with FTMs. Of course, I still see the dysphoria of worrying that others don't see them as "men", but I don't hear them not seeing themselves as men until/unless they have a penis. This may be why I see a much, much greater number of MTFs wanting lower surgery than FTMs.

I think this will surprise you (based on some of your posts), that many trans men do not have an interest in lower surgery. Now, you may have heard how complicated lower surgery (of any type) is for trans men, what with 50% of the time having complications that often require revision surgery(ies), but in my experience (and I think most trans men would tell you that they have seen this too), most do not have enough bottom dysphoria that they get surgery...some do not have any bottom dysphoria at all.

I can tell you, that I would estimate that only 20% of my FTM clients are interested in lower surgery. And all of them are adolescents. The bulk of my work currently is with adolescents, so this is a bit skewed. I can tell you that probably only 5% of my adult FTM clients have shown an interest in lower surgery.

When it comes to my MTFs clients, I would say that 90% have an interest in lower surgery. As you know, lower surgery for trans women is usually very successful and really isn't that complicated, inc comaprison. Is that the reason? I don't think all of it. Is it because society is so focused on "the penis" as a sign of masculinity? I don't know.

Something to note, is that my experience is obviously only with people in the U.S. In the UK, it might be different. I will have to ask some of my friends from England.

I suspect that for you, one of the reasons why you would be surprised to hear this is because you transitioned during a time where it was expected that a person would have lower surgery if they transitioned (along with one or two things I have read in your posts). Also, you are in the UK where insurance has always covered it (I assume). In the early days of people transitioning here 1960's-1970's (before Dr. McHugh at John Hopkins shifted the field into thinking we were mentally ill and all the gender clinics shut down in the U.S.), the insurance companies covered the lower surgeries for our MTF/FTM individuals as well. Back then, it was a requirement in order to be accepted into a gender program you had to be heterosexual (be attracted to the opposite sex from your identified gender). Was it the same over there? Did you have to lie and say you were attracted to males in order to get your surgery like I assume some did here?

I know that I am getting off topic here, but I don't believe the OP will be returning.

Also, something that I want to make sure that I always say is that this is just my experience in my corner of the U.S. However, with that said, I have a great deal of contact with the busiest and most experienced clinicians in the field here in the U.S. I have heard similar information from the other providers, but some of this is anecdotal evidence. I have not read any research on number of trans people desiring which surgeries. We are still such a young field and working with small numbers of individuals in our studies. Obviously, the numbers are getting larger.

ETA: FTMs desiring top surgery is something different. I have yet to meet a trans man who didn't want top surgery and didn't have intense dysphoria about their chest. Maybe because our society views women's breasts as the epitome of femininity (womanhood) in the way we view the penis as masculinity (male). Of course, there must be some trans men out there who don't, I am again, just stating my experience as both a gender therapist and as a trans man in the trans community.

[Esme nha Maire]

Hi Dapper!

It's the low level of genital dysphoria that you report that surprised me, Dapper, rather than the low level of desire for surgery. Knowing how chancy FTM genital reassignment surgery was, I wasn't surprised that some or even many might choose not to undergo it despite bodily dysphoria - but I was, until quite recently, assuming that FTMs had genital dysphoria just as strongly as MTF's do. Not surprised that FTMs get strong dysphoria about their breasts.

I frankly didnt give a monkeys what society's views were on genitalia or breasts as epitomising one gender or the other - I simply knew that my body was equipped with the wrong bits, and it needed to be equipped with the right bits to bring me inner peace. And reassignment surgery below plus breast development up top DID bring me inner peace. My body felt right, my brain is wired for this body, not the one I had.

Yes, certainly on the MTF side, it was expected that bodily dysphoria would be present, that the patient would at least want to have reassignment surgery. Whether or not they could might be another matter, depending on medical situation, like obesity, heart problems etc, but if there were no medical problems preventing, it was epxected that the individual would be wanting to go through surgery yes.

I do not understand your reference to insurance - that's actually something that I have been meaning to ask you privately for a while. Insurance had nothing to do with it. Gender reassignment treatment here is free on the NHS. That's it. I don't even understand where insurance could come into the picture (caveat - this hits an area in which I am, to this day, unworldly, so if it involves insurance and isn't utterly straightforward, I might not understand).

With regard to sexuality, it did seem to be expected that us MTF's would have at least some desire for guys, yes. I told the truth, which in the first instance was that I had had crushes on people of both genders, but that my libido had gone quiescent, and I really wasn't too worried about that until after I'd had surgery - I'd work things out in the end. Perfectly true at teh time. This did not seem to cause any concern.

I do know that a significant minority of MTFs deliberately told psychiatrists exactly what they believed the psychiatrist wanted to hear, irrespective of the truth, simply to try to ensure that they obtained surgery. I did not realise this for some while. I really do not know what I might have done had I been aware that I was lesbian at the time - but if any lying had been involved, it would have been as minimal as possible. I never lied about my interests, which I know a lot of the others did, to try to appear socially more femme. I didn't see the point - one wouldn't have to try very hard to spot the lie.

I ran into problems with a rogue psychiatrist before I realised I was lesbian, and the psychiatrist who oversaw my case later didn't see any problem with my being lesbian. He was only concerned that I had been living as a woman for several years, had held down jobs, changed jobs etc as a woman.

[DapperButch]

My thoughts are in blue.

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Hi Dapper!

It's the low level of genital dysphoria that you report that surprised me, Dapper, rather than the low level of desire for surgery. Knowing how chancy FTM genital reassignment surgery was, I wasn't surprised that some or even many might choose not to undergo it despite bodily dysphoria - but I was, until quite recently, assuming that FTMs had genital dysphoria just as strongly as MTF's do. Not surprised that FTMs get strong dysphoria about their breasts.

I frankly didnt give a monkeys what society's views were on genitalia or breasts as epitomising one gender or the other -

Right. When I was talking about society, I was talking about what we would have internalized unconsciously that might impact one's body dysphoria.

Too, and this is something that I didn't mention before, but that you might not know, is that the clitoris on a female bodied person enlarges quite a bit when they take testosterone. Many people don't realize how similar male and female bodies are. Some of the differences is only how they are configured.

A natal female's clitoris is really just a very small phallus, with the clitoral hood being the same as the a natal male's foreskin (or you can see it as vice versa...the male phallus being just a very large clitoris). Anyway, on testosterone, a FTM's clitoris grows on average to .5 - 1.5 inches. If you pull back the foreskin/clitoral hood, a perfectly circumcised phallus is underneath. The scrotal tissue of a natal male is the same tissue as the labia majora tissue on a female. The difference is that the labia majora tissue closed up during development in the womb in males. That is why you see the line between down the center of the scrotum. It is the labia majora tissue closing. And, of course, the testes are likened to the ovaries.

I got off track, but my point is that I think that one of the reason why FTMs have less lower genital dysphoria is that they have what would be termed a micropenis from testosterone.


I simply knew that my body was equipped with the wrong bits, and it needed to be equipped with the right bits to bring me inner peace. And reassignment surgery below plus breast development up top DID bring me inner peace. My body felt right, my brain is wired for this body, not the one I had.

Do you know if the NHS will pay for breast implants for MTFs? Here is is seen as cosmetic for trans women, the same as it is seen for cis women. Not all trans women get much breast growth though.

I do not understand your reference to insurance - that's actually something that I have been meaning to ask you privately for a while. Insurance had nothing to do with it. Gender reassignment treatment here is free on the NHS. That's it. I don't even understand where insurance could come into the picture (caveat - this hits an area in which I am, to this day, unworldly, so if it involves insurance and isn't utterly straightforward, I might not understand).

Right, I know how the NHS system works. Trans people in the U.S. have been jealous of ya'll in the UK and Canada for years, what with your free surgeries! In the U.S. one can have private insurance (employer and/or you pay for), or insurance provided free from the government for people who are below the poverty level or for people who are on disability. Until the last 5 years it was very, very, super, super rare that any of the insurance companies paid for transgender surgeries. So, if you wanted top or lower surgery, you had to pay out of pocket. Now that more insurance companies are covering (paying for) surgeries, we are seeing a dramatic increase in surgeries for both sexes. Back in the day (mid 1960's-mid 1970's) at the old time "gender clinics" (I know you guys still have those, and use that term), surgeries were covered. The gender clinics where through university hospitals. I don't know who paid for the surgeries, the government or the private insurance companies, but somehow, back then, if you were determined to be transsexual you got your surgery. That stopped when the clinics closed in the later 1970's.

With regard to sexuality, it did seem to be expected that us MTF's would have at least some desire for guys, yes. I told the truth, which in the first instance was that I had had crushes on people of both genders, but that my libido had gone quiescent, and I really wasn't too worried about that until after I'd had surgery - I'd work things out in the end. Perfectly true at teh time. This did not seem to cause any concern.

Well, here in the U.S. you would be denied trans health care if you were gay. There was a FTM, Lou Sullivan, in the 1970's, who was denied acceptance to the gender clinic 10 times because he was gay...he actually was a pioneer who essentially "started" the coming together of the trans community in the U.S.

I never lied about my interests, which I know a lot of the others did, to try to appear socially more femme. I didn't see the point - one wouldn't have to try very hard to spot the lie.

They also turned you away if you weren't seen as feminine enough if you were MTF. The whole thing was so freaking ridiculous.

[Esme nha Maire]

Dapper, I was already well aware about the great similarities of the clitoris to the penis (SERIOUS science geek, personal interest in the surgery that was done to me, etc.. :-}). Might be news to others that read it here though, so no problem. I'm still surpised at the low level of genital dysphoria in MTF's you report, but then that's hardly surprising because I've never experienced the condition you guys have.

Nope, socially internalised didnt come into it. I'm surprised you'd even suggest that - to me it sounds puzzlingly as if you're talking about bodily dysphoria as being due to social brainwashing there, and that is emphatically not the case, as I would imagine you are well aware. The whole point of the process of going through the system at Gender ID clinics was to try to separate those who genuinely had bodily dysphoria from those who had some kind of other problem making them think that maybe they should transition.

It may be that our use of terminology is slightly different though - to me bodily dysphoria rules out all factors external to the individual concerned. Stuff involving external factors is more social dysphoria, to me. I had that as well, sure, but only because the world didn't see me as the woman that I knew myself to be! Contrast that with cases where someone thought that 'maybe' they should have been a woman because they couldn't fit the expectations society has of males. Social dysphoria in both cases, but different things driving it, internal in one case, external in the other.

Yes, I was offered the choice of having breast implants at the time of my surgery - I declined, as my brain was happy with the level of breast development I had from oestrogen alone. Slightly bigger would've been nicer, but THAT's simply because I'd then have filled out dress tops a bit better and more interestingly; aesthetics, if you will, and I'm hardly the only woman in the world that wished her boobs were a tad different for aesthetic reasons. I think I can live with being normal :-}

Sorry, but I am still none the wiser as to where and how insurance companies enter the picture over there. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of what insurance is and how it works, I cannot conceive of a sane way in which an insurance company would be involved in paying for reassignment surgery as a general thing. There's clearly something about the situation that I fundamentally do not understand (or have not realised) involved. Please don't feel that you have to try to get me to understand though - it's not important to me, I'm merely mildly curious about it.

Yes, they expected a certain level of 'normal femininity' here, too - I looked conventionally femme back then (one GP actually told me that had I not mentioned that I was trans when I signed up to his surgery after I'd moved home, that he wouldn't have been able to tell short of an internal examination). I was working and living as a woman, accepted by colleagues at work as a woman, clearly doing OK in society. The fact that my interests included military history and wargaming, and my being a science geek as well apparently wasn't sufficient in their minds to override my loving clothes and pretty and cute things and having a 'wifey'/'supportive' mindset. So yes, they had a frankly risible expectation of 'normal femininity' of us MTFs, one which not a few cis-females would not meet, but I largely fitted within their expectations.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Dapper, I was already well aware about the great similarities of the clitoris to the penis (SERIOUS science geek, personal interest in the surgery that was done to me, etc.. :-}). Might be news to others that read it here though, so no problem.

Yes, it was actually more for the other readers. I wasn't sure if you knew about the enlarging of the clitoris though. I do think that helps some trans men feel better.

I'm still surpised at the low level of genital dysphoria in MTF's you report, but then that's hardly surprising because I've never experienced the condition you guys have.



Nope, socially internalised didnt come into it. I'm surprised you'd even suggest that - to me it sounds puzzlingly as if you're talking about bodily dysphoria as being due to social brainwashing there, and that is emphatically not the case, as I would imagine you are well aware. The whole point of the process of going through the system at Gender ID clinics was to try to separate those who genuinely had bodily dysphoria from those who had some kind of other problem making them think that maybe they should transition.

It may be that our use of terminology is slightly different though - to me bodily dysphoria rules out all factors external to the individual concerned. Stuff involving external factors is more social dysphoria, to me. I had that as well, sure, but only because the world didn't see me as the woman that I knew myself to be! Contrast that with cases where someone thought that 'maybe' they should have been a woman because they couldn't fit the expectations society has of males. Social dysphoria in both cases, but different things driving it, internal in one case, external in the other.

You are misinterpreting me here. I agree with what you are saying wholeheartedly. It isn't important enough though for me to clarify.
Too, please don't think I was referring to your experience.

Yes, I was offered the choice of having breast implants at the time of my surgery - I declined, as my brain was happy with the level of breast development I had from oestrogen alone. Slightly bigger would've been nicer, but THAT's simply because I'd then have filled out dress tops a bit better and more interestingly; aesthetics, if you will, and I'm hardly the only woman in the world that wished her boobs were a tad different for aesthetic reasons. I think I can live with being normal :-}

Sorry, but I am still none the wiser as to where and how insurance companies enter the picture over there. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of what insurance is and how it works, I cannot conceive of a sane way in which an insurance company would be involved in paying for reassignment surgery as a general thing. There's clearly something about the situation that I fundamentally do not understand (or have not realised) involved. Please don't feel that you have to try to get me to understand though - it's not important to me, I'm merely mildly curious about it.

Right. I was only sharing it with you for conversation's sake...I read your post as being curious about our system. I am fascinated by talking about how different countries handle their citizens with gender dysphoria who desire surgery. This is the reason why I asked about breast implants. Over here they are seen as cosmetic.

I hope that my post clears up where I was "coming from" in my comments. I was talking in generalities.

[Esme nha Maire]

(chuckle) No problem,Dapper. I was under huge stress re college work at the point when I wrote that (just had a very welcome email that's taken a huge weight off my mind!), and not expressing myself well either. Yes, I got that you weren't talking about me in particular, it just struck me that you worded things oddly (IMO), and other readers of what you've said might misinterpret, so I used myself as an example to demonstrate what I meant.

I am mildly curious about the system over there, but only because the weird-sounding insurance thing piqued my curiosity. I gather it's pretty horrible still compared to here. IMO they still aren't great here; I have some knowledge of the current situation due to a former work-colleage (and previous to that aquaintance on the Goth scene as long as 20-25 years ago) transitioning recently.

Apparently once in the system now, things go far easier for folk, but the big problem is getting that first appointment - it's about a couple of years wait just for an initial appointment (in my case, it was a matter of a few months). I suspect this is due to a relatively sudden increase in numbers of folk coming forward with gender-related problems as it's a topic more talked about than it used to be.

So folk are realising younger that there IS help for what ails them, and older affected folk are feeling more able to come forward and ask for the help they've long needed. I advised my friend that under those circumstances, then the sooner they socially reassign, the better, as there is still the requirement to live en femme for a couple of years - might as well get that done whilst waiting for that first appointment!

Did you want to talk about that other issue re MTF trans folk here or elsewhere Dapper?