The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

This 'war' and 'battle' has been being waged for a long ass time.

It was waged during the 70s with transphobic rhetoric from Janice Raymond and her ilk

It was waged during Stonewall when transpeople were erased from the history and the entirety of the uprising was co opted

It was waged when Brandon Teena was co opted and his trans ID was erased

It was waged when "The Well Of Loneliness" was co opted

It was waged at MichFest when trans people were barred from attending

It was/is waged when transpeople are completely erased and dismissed from b-f history, and we're told it's "A Women's History"

It was/is waged when Sylvia Rivera is completely dismissed, ignored, co opted, and called gay/lesbian

It is waged when there are certain expectation put on Other IDs than woman about how those IDs are 'expected' to act.

It is waged when Queer IDs are told, "It makes me uncomfortable when you celebrate your ID"

It is waged when certain IDs won't/don't give credence and space to other IDs

It is waged when one ID is told 'This is how you need to act"

It is waged when all of b-f history is looked at through one lens, and that lens is expected to be The One And Only Lens

It's waged every time someone claims this site is a 'primarily women/lesbian site'...because it's not, and that's not an INclusive statement.

It's waged every time someone makes the assumption that Queer act this way or that

It's waged every time someone makes the assumption that Queer means women loving women or men loving men

It's waged every time someone ONLY thinks in binary terms (as exemplified above)

It's waged every time someone thinks Their Way is The Only Way

And it happens every.single.day on this site, just like it did on the other site. It didn't start out that way, but it's happening again.

You want posts from this site stating Male Ids aren't welcome and aren't supposed to be here, Met? Why would anyone post them all? The complaints aren't taken seriously when the post happens, so why would anyone think 'it would be made apparent' posting them all a second time? I mean, no one even acknowledged SuperFemme's post this time around. Not even you who asked for the posts to be dredged up.

According to the Admin, this site is not only a place to 'accept and tolerate' male and other ID's, but for those IDs to be honored. Yet, even trying to discuss (not even 'honor') those IDs is seen as an attack on women, and people are then expected to answer, "I'm curious why you don't ID as woman". I can't even imagine if someone started a thread about 'honoring' male. There'd be an uproar. Even asking for another ID to be RECOGNIZED and not lumped into the 'woman' category has resulted in a hijacking of another thread...so, 'honor'...unlikely.


Dylan

P.S. not all femmes ID as 'woman'

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here.

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by JustBeingMe

Betenoire, just for the record, there are other ID"s that have gone into threads that didn't ID as woman or female and started a rant on their own ID blah blah blah. It's not just this site. I have seen it many many many times on the dash site, where someone starts a Woman thread and someone else comes in and starts off ranting in a thread where it's not addressing their ID and hell begins on the internet.
Bully knows this first hand as well as I too.

Did you read my post? Do it again and pay special attention to where I said that since Bulldog is who I was talking to (and Bulldog's statement that she thinks she makes people uncomfortable is what I was responding to) that I was going to specifically talk about/to Bulldog.

My specifically responding to Bulldog about Bulldog does not imply that I am unaware that this goes on with other IDs and in other threads.

Oh, and evoking the dash site? Go back and read the paragraph where I (to paraphrase) asked that we leave the shit from the dash site -at- the dash site. I do not like or participate in that website (pm me if you're dying to know why) so I would rather pretend it doesn't exist, and I certainly am in no position to speak on the subject of what does or does not go down over there - I abandoned that particular ship about 3 years ago.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

No, that is true, and really I know I barely knew you on the BF site. IF you did tell me then I frankly don't remember it at all.

And in either case I still didn't remove you from my friend list here and I still cut FB people who I don't interact with... and you still would have been cut like the other acquaintances that got cut.

You can think what you like, it really doesn't affect reality. People that actually do know me, here and real life are all the people are probably more in the know of how I conduct myself than you.

So it's all out there... peeps can decide who's motives are what if there into that kind of hubub... I'm all good with that.

Metro

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?
No, I don't feel any animosity towards one group of butches or another....that being said I don't like people all that much in general in the real world. So online if I dislike you it's because of what I KNOW to be true about you or because you are an ass online. It's got nothing to do with how you ID.

Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?
Nope.

Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
No, not at all. I don't see any particular group banging on another. I see scattered individual people arguing and disagreeing with other people. I don't think it's fair to group all masculine ID'd people together nor is it fair to group female ID'd people together.
I don't think this war of words is going to ever go away either. The issues are too deep and personal to some.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

No.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No.


Thanks,
Metro

As Medusa said, gloves off:

What I do see, and this is a a member of this site, not a moderator, is the same individuals most always having this heated discussion. Most always these same individuals come across as being aggressive in their delivery therefore shutting down any possibility of real discussion.

I also see a lot of misogynistic attitudes, and even though this is an all inclusive queer site, let's try to let the crude and crass behavior at the door; as a woman I don't expect to come in here and have to deal with that shit too.

As a minority we have all been oppressed so I don't get why we have to get into pissing contests about who has been oppressed the most. We all have sad stories and we have all been discriminated. Let's get over our victim horses and start listening and talking to each other like we care, really care about what each has to say, and at least be willing to admit that there is no one way for anything. We are all unique.

Whenever I see these threads/convos I avoid them, not because I can't speak my mind, but rather because I am tired of the same patterns that are predictable to develop within those threads. I don't see any of these individuals actually willing to engage in a discussion that may open their minds to different perspectives. I do see them come into the thread/convo with their own personal agenda and aggressiveness and try to stick their all mighty opinion down other people's throats.

It is tiresome so I don't participate. I agree with Met that this attitude at times gets grouped into a particular ID and the sins of the few get lumped into the ID of the many. This goes for all IDs not just one.

We are a community, let's start behaving like one. We get plenty of shit from people outside our community to have to come in here and also get it.

We are diverse we will disagree but let's do it in a civil manner.

[BullDog]

I'm going to repeat something I said in another thread:

I do get frustrated sometimes that when I am speaking up about certain things that it is taken as all I care about is my id. When I am speaking up about women- whether it be butch women or other topics related to women- I am not out there trying to promote my id.

The fact that butch women do not always receive the respect and visibility they should is a symptom of an even greater problem- which is sexism and misogyny. It's not about me promoting my individual id to trump others.

So I may be speaking from my I/me place, but I am really talking about much larger and deeper issues. That often gets lost and it frustrates me.

[Heart]

In Medusa's companion thread (femme perspectives on the gender war), she asked: * Do you feel ... that it [gender wars] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that's an IMPORTANT question and I don't really understand why the discussion of "gender wars" or the "female/male divide" is being separated into femme and butch discussions, so I'm cross-posting what I said in Medusa's thread here:

Question: Do you feel ... that it [gender wars/male-female divide] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying fuck about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart

[SuperFemme]

I think the thread in the Femme Zone is right where it belongs.
Some people consider Femme their gender. Sometimes it is ok to want to have a dialogue in Femme space. This is one of those times.

[waxnrope]

Sorry, I thought this was opened to butches for discussion ... at least initially. Where are we?
It feels as if the animosity/ies spoken of have shown up on this thread. I find it interesting, as a relatively newbie, and also paradoxical.
I am interested in reading and reflecting on responses first, being new. I'd like to hear more from my butch brothers and sister butches who ID as women. I see that the femmes have started their own thread ... maybe we can, as butches, stay on topic and have this discussion.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Heart

In Medusa's companion thread (femme perspectives on the gender war), she asked: * Do you feel ... that it [gender wars] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that's an IMPORTANT question and I don't really understand why the discussion of "gender wars" or the "female/male divide" is being separated into femme and butch discussions, so I'm cross-posting what I said in Medusa's thread here:

Question: Do you feel ... that it [gender wars/male-female divide] is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying fuck about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart

Help me out here... I get pissy about my femme safe zone so I gotta ask why the hell is this in a butch thread?

Cause lemme tell you nothing irritates me more, and I am speaking for me, nothing pisses me off more than when femme views are dragged for butch validation

It's a slap..

Just sayin/

[Goofy]

I agree with much of what has already been stated. I don’t feel any animosity towards any one group, nor do I think my ID is “at war” with any other ID, per se.

What I do see is a number of people getting riled up about one thing or another and being very vocal in their opinions. This is sometimes perceived as one ID being pitted against another when, in reality, it’s an individual thing.

I don’t believe in having to be the loudest to make myself heard.

Very rarely will I post in threads that do not pertain to my ID. But I realize that’s my thing. I may read in those threads however, for both knowledge and understanding. Hell, I rarely post much at all these days.

And mostly I’m tired. I’m tired of the circular conversations/arguments that have been going on for years about which ID is being shot down and which one is put on a pedestal; how to be x, y or z, or not; who’s more, or less (___fill in the blank). They go round and round and everyone gets their undergarments of choice in a knot and usually we end up right back where we started from. And I’m not sure how we get past that.

It truly makes me sad.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think the thread in the Femme Zone is right where it belongs.
Some people consider Femme their gender. Sometimes it is ok to want to have a dialogue in Femme space. This is one of those times.

Help me out here... I get pissy about my femme safe zone so I gotta ask why the hell is this in a butch thread?

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Heart

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

thank you for taking the time to respond...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Heart

SF & Snowy -- I'll answer this here.

I wasn't questioning anyone's gender identity. Nor was I trying to be disrespectful of anyone's space. See that's what gets to me -- that these discussions are always reduced to that.

My point isn't about anyone's gender. My point -- which is relevant in both threads and whether one is femme or butch, is about the context of sexism and misogyny in which we all do our genders.

But I can see that I am muddying the waters by being in here, so I'll bow out with apologies for any intrusion

Heart

I got your point, there is no need to leave.

With that said, it is still IMHO relevant to have the particular discussion we are having in the Femme zone.

Sometimes, examining sexism and misogyny within a Femme space can lead to better introspection.

[Hack]

I sense no animosity from any group or anyone here. I'm sorry to read that others have different experiences. One of the many things I do like about this site is that over on the left side of each post, where our avatar is, there is a line about pronoun preference. I find it nice that it is there because I feel that my preference is honored, and I can see how others prefer, so if I address them in post I know ahead of time what they want me to use.

I think that when I am out and about in the world, I am called "sir" way more than "ma'am." Even when I am addressed as "ma'am," I may slightly flinch, but I decided long ago that there are things in the world more important to fight over than whether or not the store clerk or waiter calls me sir or ma'am. I say that in no way to dismiss anyone's fight or struggle to get their i.d. out there the way they want it. I simply say that for myself I choose not to argue, as long as I am addressed politely and courteously, that is usually all that matters to me.

What it comes down to is I have a very firm grip on who I am. I know that how I i.d. is entirely up to me to define, and not others. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wasn't always, but as I age, perhaps I am mellowing. Who knows?

Jake

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Goofy

I agree with much of what has already been stated. I don’t feel any animosity towards any one group, nor do I think my ID is “at war” with any other ID, per se.

What I do see is a number of people getting riled up about one thing or another and being very vocal in their opinions. This is sometimes perceived as one ID being pitted against another when, in reality, it’s an individual thing.

I don’t believe in having to be the loudest to make myself heard.

Very rarely will I post in threads that do not pertain to my ID. But I realize that’s my thing. I may read in those threads however, for both knowledge and understanding. Hell, I rarely post much at all these days.

And mostly I’m tired. I’m tired of the circular conversations/arguments that have been going on for years about which ID is being shot down and which one is put on a pedestal; how to be x, y or z, or not; who’s more, or less (___fill in the blank). They go round and round and everyone gets their undergarments of choice in a knot and usually we end up right back where we started from. And I’m not sure how we get past that.

It truly makes me sad.

It is so damn hard to hear from many of the long-time members that this has been going on and on and on.... and that they tend to just stop posting much at all. But, this is what I am often told. And I have to say that I know it is only a matter of time until I just give it up! Well, online. There are folks that I have had an opprortunity to get to know offline locally that I know I can talk about this stuff honestly with. And maybe at events like Biutch voices if we can get together there.

Maybe it won't ever end.

Yup, sad. Sux.....

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

It is so damn hard to hear from many of the long-time members that this has been going on and on and on.... and that they tend to just stop posting much at all. But, this is what I am often told. And I have to say that I know it is only a matter of time until I just give it up! Well, online. There are folks that I have had an opprortunity to get to know offline locally that I know I can talk about this stuff honestly with. And maybe at events like Biutch voices if we can get together there.

Maybe it won't ever end.

Yup, sad. Sux.....

I don't think it will ever end. I also don't think that's a bad thing.

People find us at various stages in their journey and, hopefully, there will always be people here willing to discuss these issues based on where they are along their own path. If/when one of us gets tired of beating our head against the proverbial gender wall, someone else will be there to pick up where we left off.

Yes, we do this a lot. But, I learn something new just about every time we do it.

[AtLast]

Just cut & pasted and put my answers in my usual font/color- been thinking about the actual questions you pose for a bit, now.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

Sometimes it feels this way (which does not make it true). But, as I really think about it, this happened on the old site more often. Also, I believe it isn't a group thing at all. It was more of an individual conflict. Yet, I have to take responsibility for my own behavior and posting style in responding to an individual. I also think at times, taking things too personally causes rifts.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No

That said I often see when (every single identification of butch on the Planet) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes is an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

I don't always see this as intentional, however. You know, a lot of things get misinterpreted in threads. Why we all don't just ask for clarification more often, is puzzling. There has been more than one time that when I have re-read one of my posts that someone has taken issue with, I see exactly where my wording could have led to their taking it wrong- around gender, this gets really sensitive!

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Miscommunication, defensive postering (by all), and just not getting clarification are some reasons for this perception, I think. Also, individual feuds! I have done this myself in the past. It is not an effective way to discuss anything! I had to settle my stubborn (and opinionated) self down about this and now I feel like I am getting and giving a lot more to this on-line community.

Seriously sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

[COLOR="navy"]A PS- There have been statements throughout my time on both sites in which I have felt my ID to attacked and even dismissed. However, that has usually been some idiotic statement without forethought, it happens. I can't take that and plop it on an entire group.

I have witnessed some dissing of ID groups (again, all of them) outside of the websites. Makes me mad and I say so! I hate it when someone does the 'ole cover their mouth gesture and says .. I'd never say this on the site, but.....[/COLOR]

[Gayla]

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No, I don't feel animosity towards any group as a whole. I save my animosity for individuals!

Sorry, it was too good to pass up. Seriously, I guess I just don't bunch people together based on ID. There are groups of people that I know and like. There are groups of people that I agree with most of there posts. There are groups that I have personal issues with. There are groups that I don't like based on really stupid shit like the color font they use or avatars or lack of complete sentence structure. But I can't honestly say that I don't like or have issues with anyone based on their ID.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

My personal ID is so fluid, yet so ingrained in me, that it would be hard to be "at war" over it with anyone. I've got enough in common with everyone that, no matter their place on the graph, I can see their points and the totally opposite ones. It would be rather hypocritical of me to attack anyone based on their ID.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
No. I don't see any public agenda and I'm not "in the know" enough these days to know (or care) if there are private ones.


I've said it a few times, in different threads, but the butch gender issue is not something I have ever experienced in real time. This is strictly an online thing for me. I've never had a conversation in real time with anyone about butch gender ID's except people that I met online on a BF ID's site.

I, too, get tired of going over and over the same things. I do feel that we spend a lot of time beating our heads against the same wall and, yes, it seems to always be the same people saying the same things. I have yet to see, here, any negativity to female ID'd butches. I have yet to see the same posturing, belittling, b.s. that I've seen in other places. Based on that, I like it here best.

Also based on that, I do have to question the victim mentality of some of those that complain the loudest. In the vein of "open communication" that this thread is allowing us, I have spent an awful lot of time lately yelling things like "Oh for fuck's sake!" and "Get over it already!" at my computer monitor. I have also spent a lot of time just turning the damn thing off. I don't think anyone is out to get anyone else on a general level. Again, I can't speak of the personal because I'm not privy to it.

I also cringe a little when I get "ma'am" just because it feels so foreign to me. I'm also read as female by the majority of the population in my day to day life. If I make the conscious effort to change my appearance, I can get sir'd more often. Right now, today, I get ma'am, lady, even missy a couple of day's ago. It's weird and I can't say that I like it but I'm secure enough with myself that I can admit I've let my hair get too long, I'm wearing different clothes for work, I'm looking a hell of a lot older then I used to so I am more often read as someone's cranky old grandmother these days rather than the hardass butch I still am in my head.

And right now, today, I'm ok with that. Maybe it's my age, maybe it's the time spent on my journey, it could be any number of things. I do wish that everyone, no matter their path, gets to experience this "OK" place I'm in at least once in their life.