A request

[JustBeingMe]

There is so much more I want to say, but I really need to think more about how to say it. I agree with those here that are speaking up as butch women, and a few others on this thread about how things go down in threads. Yes, I have seen the bashing going on about Lesbians, it's just pure hatred if you ask me. No one should have to endure that kinda crap from within the community, no matter who they are, what they are, blah blah blah, etc etc etc. I'll post more as my thoughts are better gathered.

[Heart]

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

(From the blurb about her keynote at the Butch Voices regional conference in Dallas.)

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have to ask something. This is not about Dapper's request being denied at all in terms of hys personal desires. It is important to recognize how someone else defines their gender and self. Since joining a B-F site (not even 3 years ago), I have been amazed at the general degradation of the term woman. As applied to butches or femmes. I have felt both anger and puzzlement over this.

Frankly, I don't believe this has a thing to do with or is about gender identification, but everything to do with this community mirroring the prevailing (and ages long) view of women as less than men and that the only purpose a woman can possibly have is that which serves men. (And no, this is not any kind of a dig concerning BDSM service, which is something quite different) that I have no problem with).

Among every vein of butch identity I see this and often the same caddy interactions among femmes reflecting relationships among women in US society at large. The competitiveness, the put downs. The distrust- all based upon the same old sexist stereotypes.

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. I didn’t want this kind of attitudinal framework as a heterosexual, a bi-sexual, or a garden-variety lesbian. Nor do I want it as a queer lesbian butch woman! And I sure as hell don’t want the same things I lived with as a young woman for my grand daughters, no matter how they choose to identify in terms of sexuality or gender.

Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is.

And no, not all TG men are sexist, in fact, most I know are strong feminists. Also, there exist misogynist FIBs as well as MIBs along with every other identification in between as well and misogynist femmes of every identification.


Sometimes, I just wish we would get our heads out of the sand and take on the issues that hurt us outside of our little web-world (like sexism). Issues around gender are extremely significant in doing so. But our butch-wars are not! My personal rendering of butch is no more important or significant than any other person's on this site. Can't we work with one another?

I know…. The soap box….

Sometimes I think it is difficult to understand where someone is coming from when they say sexism and misogyny is alive and thriving in the alternative lifestyle community.

Perhaps some examples will prove helpful in this respect.

First, I have seen threads getting, what appears to be out of hand, with female/women folk being backed into corners by both non-female/women and femme women who dont like their views and opinions about whatever the topic may be. This attacking behavior will be allowed to continue until such time as the female/woman starts fighting back using the same tactics. Then, I see a moderator step in and warn ONLY the female/woman. There is no warning given to others. There is no general, this type of behavior is not acceptable, everybody knock it off. That, to me is sexist and misogynistic.

The only people I have seen directly confront non-female/women is other non-female/women. Then the behavior seems to cease and order is restored.

I have seen femmes, especially those in relationships with non-female/women, come rushing to the defense of non female/women in a discussion. It feels like females/women are expected to hold their own but non-female/women are unable to do so?

I have had females/women/butches/lesbians agree with some of my more controversal views and outspokenness in private. Yet in public, they are reluctant to do so. It feels like sometimes folks feel they are have to behave like they are walking on eggshells when all they are doing is standing up for their femaleness/womanness/butchness/lesbianism.

I have felt I am being told I am a second class citizen when I have stood up for my female/woman/butch/lesbian identity. It is as tho I am supposed to downplay it in order for someone who identifies differently not to feel excluded.

I have seen butch women present an idea that will have femme women picking at their bones. But, if the same idea is presented by a non-female/woman....it is open for discussion and elaboration.

I have seen non-female/women refer to women as chicks. Excuse me?

I find this behavior odd and disturbing and dismissive and sexist and misogynistic and homophobic.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. ... Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is

Yes, I agree; that's the problem. Hopefully, this discussion will create a lasting solution for the tone and interactions on this site.

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

Bully, I think you articulate succinctly why as butch women this discussion is necessary. Also, for those of us who do identify as lesbians, it's amazing to see that at times within this community that word might as well be leprosy. I find that incredibly sad, and I don't understand it. at. all. And yeah, I find it homophobic, which is incredibly ironic. (to paraphrase Met)

Originally Posted by rlin

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

Yes, the irony is thick.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

Absofuckinglutely.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Isn't this the truth! NEWS FLASH - Not all lesbians are anti- B-F, queer, Trans/Ig, and it is not the 1970's any longer!! I'm a lesbian and a butch! Also, coalition building across diverse communities helps banish stereotypes and transmits education about our community that is much needed. Isolationism simply floats a larger leper island, so to speak.

I understand (and have experienced) some of the crap that some lesbians spew about the B-F community. However, just as we as individuals fall into every form of unique here, so do lesbians.

I don't choose to be a victim of negative transgressions, or even a survivor. I want to be an advocate and an educator.

Your perspective and gentle treatment of all issues surrounding this subject makes you just that -- an advocate and an educator. It's greatly appreciated, AtLast.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r). ... Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony, Metropolis

Well, Met, I hope that by pointing it out, some who refuse to see it or simply can't see it will finally understand that discrimination within our community only feeds the discrimination in the larger society we inhabit. And that's why it's so important that we seek a way past this narrow mindset concerning ourselves.

Originally Posted by BullDog

For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

Bully -- I so hope they do. I'd truly like to understand this better for myself. I realize that this is in part the rationale behind Dapper's opening post, and I'd just like to know what's behind that feeling. Not so I can respect Dapper's identity -- because I believe I already do --- but because I'd like to truly understand it in a way that I don't currently. And, I hope all butches who feel this way will speak up to help me understand.

Originally Posted by Heart

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

Thanks for posting this, Heart. It goes to the heart of the matter.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I just gotta say as one of those femme's who comes into ALL threads regarding gender.. Even when I was not partnered up with anyone of any gender.

Just sayin'

[Toughy]

off to find the super dooper magnifying glass so I can read what Beau has been posting...........

Beau my friend....laughing.....larger type size please.........

[Bohemian Rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

That is exactly how I feel about the labeling that goes on in the LGBT community. Why do we have to pigeon hole ourselves into a certain group anyway? It certainly isnt easy for me to put myself in any one catergory and I certainly dont want someone doing that for me.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

(From the blurb about her keynote at the Butch Voices regional conference in Dallas.)

Damn, I wish I could attend! I believe that the honest and real conversations were begun at the Oakland 09' conference. Not without pain, but with the willingness to break through the BS and stop hiding from one another. Collaboration is the operative term, for sure and the key to forming effective coalitions.

Had to edit to add- when will the members that most of this conversation needs to be with, join in? I always feel like we end up preaching to the choir.... and the choir is representative of various identifications.

[SuperFemme]

Dapper? Dapper? Are you still here? I know your intent was not bad in starting this thread. It wasn't a crazy request even.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

I believe, without regard to how I choose to identify, that it's my obligation to seek information and ask questions about what I don't understand. I also believe that it's my responsibility to foster an environment where if one chooses, those (from their me place) answers, can be heard.

Does this make any sense?

[tantalizingfemme]

I have read through this thread a couple of times and can honestly say I am lost as to how the OP's request of:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

turned into:

Originally Posted by rlin

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The assertion that attitudes and behaviors are less favorable towards women-identified butches and more favorable towards male-identified butches confuses me since the start of this site, I saw the woman-identified butch celebrated, not degraded.

A perfect example is the thread
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ht=butch+women

Thanks....

[Dylan]

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Does anyone know which topic area the thread about male vs masculine is located in?

That thread is a good one to ponder the female-bodied, non-woman identification of some members.

I'll keep looking for the link. I learned a lot in reading it.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Does anyone know which topic area the thread about male vs masculine is located in?

That thread is a good one to ponder the female-bodied, non-woman identification of some members.

I'll keep looking for the link. I learned a lot in reading it.

Here you go... http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=408

[tantalizingfemme]

Thanks for the link AtLast and Metropolis.... I remember reading it when it was active.


P.S Dylan, thanks for your pointed post, I thought it was just me.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan

This thread isn't one about butches who identify other than woman- it was a request for butch women to make sure they don't forget to say not all female butches are women.

Apparently you don't like the responses.

I am a butch. I am female. I am a woman. If you are female and things line up differently for you, by all means let us know. I don't need to qualify things when I speaking about butch women.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I believe, without regard to how I choose to identify, that it's my obligation to seek information and ask questions about what I don't understand. I also believe that it's my responsibility to foster an environment where if one chooses, those (from their me place) answers, can be heard.

Does this make any sense?

This post deserves repeating


Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

Thanks for the link AtLast and Metropolis.... I remember reading it when it was active.


P.S Dylan, thanks for your pointed post, I thought it was just me.

You are welcome and thanks to Met- I was going nuts trying to find it again. I honestly think there are many things stated in it that do address the female-bodied butch who does not include woman as part of their identity and has information from members that goes to Dapper's request without bringing sexism along with it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Dylan
I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan



Dylan,

Thank you for providing us with a perfect example of what women/lesbians have been referring to in this thread.

You want us to accept and respect all the differences that make up our community. But when women/lesbians stand up for themselves (guess what, we matter too) you respond with the most dismissive, rude, crude, profane filled, disrespectful, sexist, tirade I have heard in decades.

But I am supposed to respect you? Even tho you don’t respect me or treat me or speak to me in a respectful manner?

Hate to tell you this honey but it’s a 2 way street. And I am not one of those women/lesbians who is intimidated by sexist rhetoric suitable for the 1960’s.

Your post was rude and offensive. And I think you owe some people an apology.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This thread isn't one about butches who identify other than woman- it was a request for butch women to make sure they don't forget to say not all female butches are women.

Apparently you don't like the responses.

I am a butch. I am female. I am a woman. If you are female and things line up differently for you, by all means let us know. I don't need to qualify things when I speaking about butch women.

I don't think Dapper was speaking to butch women only but rather to the community at large. (I could be wrong but that was how I understood the thread since it's under the general Gender, Labels, Identities forum rather than The Butch Zone).

I almost equate this to "I recognize others but I don't want to be lost in the shuffle either please". I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to stand up and let their voice be heard as is; that it is neither wrong or right but the way they are, the way we all are, the diverseness of "we" make our community that much more greater.