Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

If were going to pretend that athletes aren't role models, we don't have common ground to start a discussion. And if were going to pretend that most people, including my students who have had Vick's background and then some, are afforded the second most lucrative contract in sports and get the opportunities that Vick has been afforded, then I really have no common point to begin here.

]

SoNotHer - great point. Most people (who are not celebrities/sports stars) do not have the kind of opportunity to start over, get a job, home, financial security etc., that Vick has had after leaving prison. Martha Stewart is the only person I can think of of the top of my head. But, of course, her crimes did not involve the torture, abuse & murder of dogs.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by suebee

QUOTE=suebee

I just feel that the victims of this case are being pretty much forgotten. I don't want to hear that they're "just dogs", or that they're not equal to humans. I don't think that mattered a damn to them when they were suffering.

Sue[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]

Suebee-I had to clip this little bit of your post, because I want you to know that you are not alone in this! I feel the exact same way. As I've said before, violence is violence; torture is torture regardless of who is on the receiving end. I can see no reason why there is a need to "rank" suffering. I do see a need to speak out for the innocent and the voiceless.

I have great respect for you and the work that you do with animals.

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

I never even heard about this!

But, living in Texas, my entire state seems to have little interest in the welfare of animals. It's rarely something I see on the local news. I would like to think that there would be such a local outrage against this firefighter that he would lose his job. I certainly wouldn't trust someone capable of that type of action with my life or the life of my family.

[dykeumentary]

What are your thoughts on South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by purepisces

I never even heard about this!

But, living in Texas, my entire state seems to have little interest in the welfare of animals. It's rarely something I see on the local news. I would like to think that there would be such a local outrage against this firefighter that he would lose his job. I certainly wouldn't trust someone capable of that type of action with my life or the life of my family.

Here:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-08/j...es?_s=PM:CRIME

Santuomo was sentenced to 90 days in jail, to be served in 10-day increments over the next two years. He also has to pay $4,500 in restitution, perform 200 hours of community service, stay away from companion animals for five years and write a letter of apology to be published in the local newspaper and the International Association of Firefighters magazine, the humane society's Miller said.


And he was fired, actually:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...1_MNEGG30.html



ETA: The judge had said he could do the 90 days in increments of 10 days only if he was employed, so after getting fired, that was removed.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Tell you what I will answer your question when you answer ours..

What would be an a good enough punishment for Vick?

You seem to have skipped over that particular question as well, as for ignoring this I am not advocating his heinous crimes, but I sure damn well am not gonna sit here quietly and watch the grossness that has happened in this thread and if you say that grossness has not happened I will point each and everyone out.

Originally Posted by suebee

I've never spoken to the criminal punishment for several reasons: I don't believe it works, and for crimes such as animal abuse I don't think it comes close to changing something. There has to be a change in attitude - in core belief systems, before somebody gets it. I'm not judge or jury. I'd hate to be involved in the process because it's a system that is so far out of date, and continues because we as a society feel that we have to see something DONE. It's almost a moot point in my opinion, except some people actually NEED to be locked up for the protection of others.

Of course Vick was in prison for bankrolling dog fights, NOT animal abuse. But the fact that he never admitted to animal abuse during the trial process - and I read that the judge was actually harder on him because of his lack of apparent remorse - is easy to understand in that he grew up in that culture, and hadn't yet come to terms with the absolute horror of his actions.

I read the blog, and that's EXACTLY what *I* needed to hear from him. I asked several times if anybody had seen him apologize - thanks for finally posting it.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So how long should he be reminded over and over and over and over of what he did? Cause what he's trying to do now and being honest about it isn't good enough, what would be a good way to solve this for you sue? What would be a proper punishment that would make you feel the victims were *vindicated*?


I am fully aware of what the charges were and that he got lesser charges, I am going to assume he was offered that if he cooperated with authorities that's how it tends to work in our system, so should he spend more time in jail because some people feel he should? Should he not entered a plea bargain if it was given to him?

How much more do you want him to pay? You seem to avoid that question..

Originally Posted by suebee

QUOTE=suebee;425403]I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue

My point was really simple Toughy. It was in answer to Snowy's comment that "he's done his time". He agreed to plead guilty to bankrolling a dog fighting operation to AVOID being tried for the animal abuse charge. You and I may know what happen to those dogs. But I doubt that everybody does. That was the point of avoiding a trial. The violence and cruelty that was shown by Vick and others is horrendous. It was strategic on his part to plead guilty to a crime that would seem less offensive.

Here's what I agree with: Others are guilty of equally horrendous cries or worse and get away with it. They may not be stigmatized as much as Vick, may even go free - and yes, race has always got to be considered a mitigating factor.

Here's what I'm feeling in this thread: As laudible as his anti-dog fighting efforts may be, he inflicted horrendous suffering on those animals. Neither his community service nor the racial aspect of unequal justice for people of colour changes that. I'm involved in animal rescue on a regular basis, and when I hear Vick's name there are some pretty fucking awful images that come into my mind. That probably isn't the case for everyone, but is is for me and most of the people I spend time with. I just feel that the victims of this case are being pretty much forgotten. I don't want to hear that they're "just dogs", or that they're not equal to humans. I don't think that mattered a damn to them when they were suffering.

I'm not really interested in starting a big conversation on the topic. I seem to be one of the few that has participated on this thread that is of this mindset. I'm just responding to Toughy's question.

Sue[/QUOTE]

I haven't avoided anything Snowy. As a matter of fact we had this EXACT conversation months ago, when the thread first came up. Your question at the top of this post. My answer in red. Again you ask the question (in blue) MY point is in pink. Snowy. I answered you once on the question of sentencing. I'll answer again in a different way. YOU are concerned with the sentencing and all of the issues around that. MY point - and if you want you can read through all of my old posts to verify - has ALWAYS been about the dogs. I could give a shit about the sentencing. It's not my country. It's not my judicial system. The dogs however..... there is an international animal rights movement of which I consider myself a part of. That's what I am talking about. The animals. If you want to ask me a question about that - an honest question - I'll try to answer. If you want to talk about sentencing, there are plenty of folks here who are interested in talking about that aspect.

No disrespect - no pissiness on my part. Just an honest answer to your question.

Respectfully,
Sue

[The_Lady_Snow]

He's admitted what he's done to them animals in detail, he's not hiding it, he's continuing to educate that's what I see him doing for those dogs and dogs now. I can't imagine it's easy having to look deep and see what a douche bag you were, my hope is he continues being honest, paying it forward, talking to kids and one day he's forgiven for fucking up really bad he's a young guy he can make a difference. You can only beat a man/woman down so much before they begin to wonder WTF..

Oh and yes the firefighter in Ohio wanted to go on vacation so he killed his dogs and bragged about it to his buddies...

[SoNotHer]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I can't imagine it's easy having to look deep and see what a douche bag you were, my hope is he continues being honest, paying it forward, talking to kids and one day he's forgiven for fucking up really bad he's a young guy he can make a difference..

Agreed. With great power and opportunity comes great responsibility. He's in a position to make a change and symbolize that change.

And of the firefighter who wanted to go on vacation, or the man who I saw in a recent news video left his two five-month old puppies caged in a house to die rather than adopt them out (and he knew folks would have taken them) all I can say is that I hope they never have another pet and that there's some justice somewhere along the day.

[kannon]

Everyone who is pointing their finger at Michael Vick and claiming that his crimes are unforgiveable, I would like to know if you guys wear makeup, take medications or use (have) any other animal products? If you do, which I would assume most of you do or have in the past, then are you not a complicit participant in acts of animal cruelty yourself? You may say that animal research benefits humans and excuse the inhumane way we treat animals or creatures we deem as expendable or less than us. Yeah, it’s not as bad as using animals for sport and entertainment. Who said it’s okay to torture animals to get that right type of mascara? Looking at Vick’s case, football is similar to dog fighting in many ways. We have many human sports that are dangerous. Football and boxing are a physically dangerous sports. So, for someone like Vick, dog fighting may not have seemed so cruel. My point it, sometimes it’s about perspective and individual experience.
I’m not excusing his behavior, but he has paid heavily for his crime and appears rehabilitated. So, why not give him a second chance? Why be so self-righteous?

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by kannon

Everyone who is pointing their finger at Michael Vick and claiming that his crimes are unforgiveable, I would like to know if you guys wear makeup, take medications or use (have) any other animal products? If you do, which I would assume most of you do or have in the past, then are you not a complicit participant in acts of animal cruelty yourself? You may say that animal research benefits humans and excuse the inhumane way we treat animals or creatures we deem as expendable or less than us. Yeah, it’s not as bad as using animals for sport and entertainment. Who said it’s okay to torture animals to get that right type of mascara? Looking at Vick’s case, football is similar to dog fighting in many ways. We have many human sports that are dangerous. Football and boxing are a physically dangerous sports. So, for someone like Vick, dog fighting may not have seemed so cruel. My point it, sometimes it’s about perspective and individual experience.
I’m not excusing his behavior, but he has paid heavily for his crime and appears rehabilitated. So, why not give him a second chance? Why be so self-righteous?

I’m not sure who this post is directed to, but I’m happy to respond.

Just to clarify first, are you saying discussing Michael Vick in this thread is pointing fingers at him or is it something specific that I, or someone else is saying? I’ve only recently posted in this thread because, quite honestly, I find the whole subject so upsetting that it is difficult for me to discuss it.

Don’t get me started on animal testing! I don’t want to derail this thread, so I’ll send you a PM. But to answer your questions: I rarely wear makeup but when I do it is cruelty free, I don’t wear leather or fur, and I’ve been a vegetarian for years. But, I’m not vegan. I eat eggs, dairy & cheese, I feel overwhelming guilt about it, because yes, it makes me complicit in the very cruelty that abhor. I also take medications that probably were tested on animals at some point. I wish I could say I was innocent, but there is blood on my hands, too.

I have never given an opinion as to whether I believe what Vick has done is forgivable or not. I did discuss the fact that I can’t forget what he did. I don’t think anyone can expect their actions to be forgotten just because we might be sorry that we did something. I would guess that for the rest of his life his name is going to be associated with dog fighting.

But in this case, the fact that his actions gained such notoriety is what will, hopefully, help him successful work to end dog fighting. He is someone who has been on both sides of the issues. That’s not something I can say. I honestly cannot imagine how a person could not just condone, but enjoy and promote something I consider so cruel. So, I most likely would not be able to connect with someone actively engaged in that type of activity. Hopefully, Vick, can and will be able to use his influence to that end.

As to getting a second chance, it seems to me that he is getting just about the best second chance ever. A lot of people said that the public outcry would keep him from playing football again. That has not happened. He has an amazing contract, he’s getting sponsor’s back, and he got a reality show. I bet most people would love to have his life after getting out of prison.

Since he is quite young, I hope that the years he spends working on behalf of animals will far outweigh the years he was involved in dog fighting. I don’t think redemption is something that happens overnight. I also don’t think it’s something to be judged by me, or the media, etc. I see redemption as a deeply personal journey, not something that can be bestowed by the public.

You make an interesting point about the possible effect of violent sports on those who play them. The problem with the comparison, in my opinion, is that people have the choice to play a sport, and football players and boxer aren’t killed if they lose a game/fight. Those are luxuries that the dogs in question never had.

[Ebon]

Honestly who gives a fuck what people think of him. As long as HE learns his lesson, which he is in the process of doing. He didn't know he was doing wrong but now he does and now he has to live with it. Obviously this is a part of his life's journey, he is learning how to value the life of an animal. Not everyone was born with that information some of us had to learn it. Perhaps some people need to learn compassion and forgiveness. In my own opinion the only people that can judge other people about animal cruelty are the ones that live a vegan lifestyle, everyone else is just a hypocrite. Let the man learn his lesson.

As far as race goes this whole fucking thread was started on some racist bullshit. I'm not going to vote for Obama again because he's showing compassion? Give me a break.

[Toughy]

suebee..........Please don't imply I think they are 'just dogs'. I work with dogs and have for years now. I'm so glad you do too, just remember that finger you are pointing at me and others leaves 3 pointing back at you.

I'm also am so glad you think his race is a 'mitigating' factor......it's the BIGGEST factor in all of this. Rich white men (and women) are in the dog fighting business and you don't see ANY of them on trial or see any hateful, spiteful, mean-spirited attitudes toward them.

Anybody who knows anything more than 'dog fighting is bad' can find out who is doing what. Trust me, law enforcement knows who is involved .....they just don't care unless they can take down a gifted black athlete and whip up a frenzy over it.

[suebee]

Oh Toughy, that wasn't necessarily directed at you. It's just a comment I've heard all too often. My bad if I wasn't clear.

[SoNotHer]

As I wrote, with great power comes great responsibility. Let's hope we all use it wisely.

And yes, I do use cruelty-free products and have for many years. And I voted Obama and will again. And I supported the release of Troy Davis, and I support the NAACP. And I support the end of any vestige of Jim Crow in America, including the clear and obvious use of privatized educational and prison systems to continue to oppress people of color.

In fact, I'm actually offended by racism, sexism, classism and the myriad of ways people have found to get over on one another and other species.

I'm looking forward to a time of much greater compassion and empathy by all and for all.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

As I wrote, with great power comes great responsibility. Let's hope we all use it wisely.

And yes, I do use cruelty-free products and have for many years. And I voted Obama and will again. And I supported the release of Troy Davis, and I support the NAACP. And I support the end of any vestige of Jim Crow in America, including the clear and obvious use of privatized educational and prison systems to continue to oppress people of color.

In fact, I'm actually offended by racism, sexism, classism and the myriad of ways people have found to get over on one another and other species.

I'm looking forward to a time of much greater compassion and empathy by all and for all.

Mac or PC? lol just kidding

[SoNotHer]

LOL Happily. I carry no illusion my soul has any greater or lesser weight than any other soul.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

LOL Happily. I carry no illusion my soul has any greater or lesser weight than any other soul.

Then you are lucky. Some people can't even see past the vessel that houses the soul.

[SoNotHer]

Thank you, Ebon. The world would open up and dance for them if they could see to the soul.

I certainly have other issues, and my exs would be happy to put on a pot of coffee and tell you so. ;-) This just isn't one of them.