American Consulate Attack in Libya

[Medusa]

I didn't see a thread on this so thought I would start one.

I've been following this closely for the last couple of days and am just sick for the family of Chris Stevens and the 3 others killed in the attacks. Also sickened by the anti-Muslim rhetoric that I am seeing all over Facebook.

Now, I'm reading about a second attack in Yemen and that the attack in Libya might have been coordinated to commemorate 9/11. The Pentagon has just moved 2 warships closer to the Libyan coast as well.

I hate that people are taking the opportunity to paint all Muslims as extremists but even further, am concerned about the larger implications for war. And if Mitt Romney doesn't shut his fucking face.....

[Electrocell]

Yeah this is a very sad situation .LOL agree with about that Romney( full of hot gas) guy.

[~ocean]

I totaly agree medusa , I also have been watching the developments,,, after 911 I was in NYC and if u have ever been there u would know 99% of their cab drivers r muslims.. They feel the need to apologize for the leaders of their countrys .. I responded with , I am sry as well, we have an ignorant leader .. BUSH.... Freedom of speech unfortunatly has a price..when ignorance speaks ~~ There should be a filtering system , that ingnorance of this nature should be banned... Now theres a great job for a techy to develope !

[girl_dee]

in a way i hope Romney KEEPS running his yap. One of my family members told me yesterday that his big spewing mouth is the reason she is voting for Obama.

What is scary to me is that i saw yesterday that Romney had comments about Obama's move before the move.

[Parker]

Yeah - he attributed to President Obama comments that were actually made by the US embassy during the protests, BUT BEFORE the attack on the embassy - comments they made in an attempt to curb the violence - he really thought he nailed Obama with that one.





I'm with dee on this one - I hate hearing that man and seeing him in the news, but the more he opens his mouth, the better chance Obama has at re-election because more and more people are realizing what an ass this guy is ... he's Dubbya 2.0

[tantalizingfemme]

I am so disgusted that rather than take the first moment to focus on the real tragedy of the situation, the death of Chris Stevens and others, the focus is on political bashing.

Shame on not just Romney, but a lot of the media. I saw more coverage on the idiocy of Romney than I did on the true victims of this horrific act.

I feel so sad for all of those who lost a loved one. It makes me sick that they have to witness the death of their family member/friend being used as a vehicle for political chest thumping.

I am worried about what is going to happen in response to these attacks. The whole thing really makes me sick to my stomach.

Peace and prayers for the lives lost and those affected by the loss.

[Admin]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I am so disgusted that rather than take the first moment to focus on the real tragedy of the situation, the death of Chris Stevens and others, the focus is on political bashing.

Shame on not just Romney, but a lot of the media. I saw more coverage on the idiocy of Romney than I did on the true victims of this horrific act.

I feel so sad for all of those who lost a loved one. It makes me sick that they have to witness the death of their family member/friend being used as a vehicle for political chest thumping.

I am worried about what is going to happen in response to these attacks. The whole thing really makes me sick to my stomach.

Peace and prayers for the lives lost and those affected by the loss.

I am really worried too, tantalizing. I hope that the violence doesn't escalate but am not feeling very hopeful after seeing how it escalated at the Yemini consulate.
I don't care if extremist people want to get pissed off and burn our flag and shout "Death to America". That's an expression issue to me and doesn't feel much different than what Fred Phelps does over here on our own soil but the minute a representative of the US got killed along with 3 others, I felt that ugly nervous-tummy feeling.

I hate to think of this in political terms but this is going to be a shitty situation for not only President Obama as he makes a decision about what to do or not about this, but for the men and women who are still in consulates across the world AND for the potential danger that our soldiers are entering as warships move closer to Libyan shores.

My Brother is military. Every incident like this makes me feel like he is an inch closer to putting his life on the line because of idiots.

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Admin

I am really worried too, tantalizing. I hope that the violence doesn't escalate but am not feeling very hopeful after seeing how it escalated at the Yemini consulate.
I don't care if extremist people want to get pissed off and burn our flag and shout "Death to America". That's an expression issue to me and doesn't feel much different than what Fred Phelps does over here on our own soil but the minute a representative of the US got killed along with 3 others, I felt that ugly nervous-tummy feeling.

I hate to think of this in political terms but this is going to be a shitty situation for not only President Obama as he makes a decision about what to do or not about this, but for the men and women who are still in consulates across the world AND for the potential danger that our soldiers are entering as warships move closer to Libyan shores.

My Brother is military. Every incident like this makes me feel like he is an inch closer to putting his life on the line because of idiots.

Had a reply, deleted it. Need to think it out more clearly. But to respond to this, I agree with it all. I am afraid that the responses to this are going to further endanger everyone and escalate to a catastrophic level.

I am trying not to let the anxiety I feel go haywire...

[weatherboi]

Watching the President address this tragedy on the tv yesterday was rough. Hillary looked so sad, like she was in physical pain and that means something to me, the people that die everyday means something to me, and my administration means something to me. I fear for any Muslim in America. I felt this way before 9/11 and it was crystal clear for me on 9/11 as I sat in a queer bar the night of the tragedy and listened to some of my own community embrace hate rhetoric out of fear. I would have thought after such a tragedy and presently feel watching continued tragedies throughout the world that we would embrace peace with a decline on the importance of religion to accomplish that, but we don't. Until that happens I am not sure there will be an end in sight to this particular type of violence. Our local news is focusing on Terry Jones and his cult clan. They are the Quran burning gang down in Gainesville and have somehow found themselves mixed up in this by supporting an anti Muslim/Islam video and refusing to recant. He locally promotes more Muslim/Islam hate here and gets people going. Again, this is what we are hearing locally in the media. I know there are other stories out there about why, what and who is responsible for this recent tragedy, but you don't see them on the local news here. The Mitt ads have been running like crazy focusing some on this but I am sure it will get worse as this situation develops. No matter how it develops the Mitt camp is gonna try and use it against the current admin. It somehow seems to only mean something for so long then it seems like it meant nothing as people continue to die all over the world everyday for the same reasons.

[ruffryder]

Why do we have to take care of the rest of the world. Why cant we just bring our Americans home. Why do we even have our flag hanging in other countries. Why is there so much hate against America and our beliefs of freedom of speech, religion, etc. Why, Why, Why.. so many questions. *sigh* I keep feeling this is another war about to escalate once again for pretty much the same reasons. With beliefs and disagreements such as these, it seems to never end and people have to not only fight about it but bring out full blown war and attacks.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Why do we have to take care of the rest of the world. Why cant we just bring our Americans home. Why do we even have our flag hanging in other countries. Why is there so much hate against America and our beliefs of freedom of speech, religion, etc. Why, Why, Why.. so many questions. *sigh* I keep feeling this is another war about to escalate once again for pretty much the same reasons. With beliefs and disagreements such as these, it seems to never end and people have to not only fight about it but bring out full blown war and attacks.

Ruff-

I think I can answer to why there is hate toward America in a lot of other countries at this time.
I wouldn' characterize the disdain that some other cultures/countries/sects feel toward us based on our freedome of expression or beliefs. I think their disdain is much more centered around the idea that many Americans don't think twice about stomping on someone else's right to believe what they want in the name of "you don't know any better" and "our way is the only way".

It's very ethno and Euro-centric, the way we do things a lot of times.

I think that in certain Muslim-heavy countries, there is the perception that "those arrogant Americans" think they can tell the rest of the world what to do and when to do it. Because honestly? We've operated like that before. And we've done some shitty things like busting up into other countries under the guise of "we're looking for weapons" when we were really looking to pilfer oil supplies. That kind of dirty dealing is a stain on our reputation, but also leaves the impression with folks that we want what we want at any cost.

With that, even if President Obama doesn't want to operate in a shady way, the history of the American political system is still in the memories of the folks who have been a victim of it.

Now, the idea that a movie about Mohammad gives people the right to act a damn violent fool and kill folks is not only ridiculous but it is the same mentality that causes people to murder Gays, rape women, and commit violent acts of racism in the name of "what they believe in". It is fear-based, aggressive, mob-mentality behavior and it is very, very dangerous.

[Zimmeh]

I was working at a hotel in Ocala, Florida when the World Trade Center was hit by both plans. My boss at the time was from Pakistan, and was a nice gentleman. I feel that some Muslims are grouped in with the one's who are extremists and for some reason, we cannot differentiate between the two groups. As far as ol' Mitt goes, it was the Bush Administration that got us into the financial mess we are currently in. He wanted to make sure his friends in the oil business was well taking care of, while the middle class suffered and now Obama is getting blamed for it. I do believe Mitt does need to close his trap..

Zimmeh

Originally Posted by Medusa

I didn't see a thread on this so thought I would start one.

I've been following this closely for the last couple of days and am just sick for the family of Chris Stevens and the 3 others killed in the attacks. Also sickened by the anti-Muslim rhetoric that I am seeing all over Facebook.

Now, I'm reading about a second attack in Yemen and that the attack in Libya might have been coordinated to commemorate 9/11. The Pentagon has just moved 2 warships closer to the Libyan coast as well.

I hate that people are taking the opportunity to paint all Muslims as extremists but even further, am concerned about the larger implications for war. And if Mitt Romney doesn't shut his fucking face.....

[Rockinonahigh]

I have been watching this since it happend and am sick over it all.To think someone from this country would make such a movie and use it to inflame someones religion is beond me.I pray this stops but in my heart I know it will be an issue for a while.It's bad enough this happened but Romney isnt makeing it a bit better,he needs to shut the "F" up and let Obama and Hillary take care of this.I doubt Romney will stop his comments all I do hope is he digs himself into a political grave he cant get out of.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Zimmeh

I was working at a hotel in Ocala, Florida when the World Trade Center was hit by both plans. My boss at the time was from Pakistan, and was a nice gentleman. I feel that some Muslims are grouped in with the one's who are extremists and for some reason, we cannot differentiate between the two groups. As far as ol' Mitt goes, it was the Bush Administration that got us into the financial mess we are currently in. He wanted to make sure his friends in the oil business was well taking care of, while the middle class suffered and now Obama is getting blamed for it. I do believe Mitt does need to close his trap..

Zimmeh

If I am to apply this to my own country I could easily say that I can't tell the difference from a christian extremist or just a person that practices Christianity. I see many, many people that hide behind the guise of christianity do extreme things in this country to keep people oppressed and fearful. How many pastors do we know from this country that have gone to Uganda or some country that hates/kills gays and tries to help organize them to create legislation against our international community. That is some extreme lengths to go to in order to hate on the queers. Extremists are not just limited to the international community they are born right here in America. Can I tell the difference? Yes they are all over the TV and web. My point is I am sure if we were to understand Muslim/Islamic culture we would very easily be able to tell the difference but it is because we lack that knowledge and sensitivity that we can't. I am sure Muslim/Islamic people who are just practicing their faith don't wish to be confused with that kind of extreme practice just like any other person that practices a religion for positive gain.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Why do we have to take care of the rest of the world. Why cant we just bring our Americans home. Why do we even have our flag hanging in other countries.

These attacks happened at either the American embassy (Egypt and Yemen) or an American consulate (Libya). We have flags flying in those and other countries because part of what nation states *do* is have embassies and consulates in other nations. It is part and parcel of diplomacy to have diplomatic staff permanently in that nation. While we may not recognize the importance of diplomatic relations with other nation states they are important. Having an embassy in another nation is so important that when we *don't* have an embassy one of two things are true: either we are in a state of war or we have broken off all diplomatic relations with that nation. An example of the first is what happened at the start of WW II. Immediately after Pearl Harbor the Japanese embassy in D.C. burned their code books and then got out of the US. The US closed its embassy and we did not reestablish diplomatic relations with Japan until after the war. In the latter case, we closed our embassy in Tehran, Iran, after our embassy was taken and hostages held with the full knowledge and support of the new Iranian government (the government following the overthrow of Shah Reza Pavlavi). We have not reopened that embassy and so we *still*, almost forty years after the fact, we don't have normalized relations with Iran.

Not having embassies in the world means not dealing with the rest of the world. That means international travel can become very interesting. It means doing business in foreign countries becomes much more difficult. We fly flags in other nations because in order to deal with those nations we have to have diplomatic staff there who can build relationships with the locals. The day we start closing embassies around the world is the day the world becomes a much more unstable place.

Why is there so much hate against America and our beliefs of freedom of speech, religion, etc. Why, Why, Why.. so many questions. *sigh* I keep feeling this is another war about to escalate once again for pretty much the same reasons. With beliefs and disagreements such as these, it seems to never end and people have to not only fight about it but bring out full blown war and attacks.

I do not think it is accurate to say that people hate America because of our beliefs in freedom of speech or religion. This is not to say that there are not people who oppose those ideas but I don't think there's good reason to believe that they hate America *because* of those core commitments. Rather, I think they just hate the idea, generally, of freedom of religion or they either hate or do not understand the idea of freedom of the press. Most nations do *not* have written into their constitutions the kind of expansive freedom of religious belief or speech enjoyed in the United States. In all too many nations, if the press says something one is justified in assuming that the *government* has said it because either the state runs the press or the state approves anything that is published. Such is not the case in the United States. And I think that a misunderstanding of people who may live under a different form of media regime than we do is probably inevitable.

Imagine you live in a nation where if it is printed or broadcast you know some state censor has given their blessing to whatever the utterance is. Then you find out that some filmmaker in America has put out a movie insulting to your religion. Working within the only frame you know, you assume that if some American filmmaker put out a movie, *someone* in the US government *must* have given it the official OK. I mean, *your* nation has a Ministry of Culture that approves movies so how can it be that the USA doesn't? So you're angry not just at the filmmaker but at the United States government since it must have approved the insulting film.

I think some variation of that understanding is at work now.

I would also suggest that much of the anger at America is due to her *policies*. Every time an Israeli soldier tosses a tear gas grenade at some protesters and the canister has a 'made in the USA' stencil on it, it makes people angry. Every time the United States speaks about 'freedom' and 'democracy' while simultaneously propping up some kleptocratic dictator (Mubarak of Egypt leaps to mind here) it makes people angry. We support Israel against the Palestinians no matter how egregious Israeli malfeasance might be. We support dictators because they are geostrategically convenient for us while telling their oppressed people that we stand for democracy and the right of peoples to live in liberty.

My point is that *long* before we get to "they hate us for our freedoms" there are much better explanations for why some people hate the United States.

That said, let me make a couple of points about the last 72 hours. While the protests in Egypt appear to have been, more or less, genuine expressions of outrage (as misplaced as I think they are) the protest and attack in Libya appears to have been planned. The Libyan people, despite what some on the American Left would have us believe, are actually *very* favorably disposed to Americans right now because it was American jets that swatted Gaddafi's planes and helicopters from the skies over Libya, allowing the rebels to overthrow their dictatorship. When an American pilot was shot down over Libya, the Libyan people rescued him and got him to safety. Yesterday, Libyans turned out to protest *against* the attack on the consulate and to mourn Chris Stevens because they knew he was on their side while he lived.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I am so disgusted that rather than take the first moment to focus on the real tragedy of the situation, the death of Chris Stevens and others, the focus is on political bashing.

Shame on not just Romney, but a lot of the media. I saw more coverage on the idiocy of Romney than I did on the true victims of this horrific act.

I'm going to take a somewhat contrary take because what Mittens did was so entirely outside the norm of American presidential politics . There are three, more or less, unspoken but well-understood consensus rules in national politics and they are these:

1. We have one President at a time and so one foreign policy at a time.
2. Politics stops at the water's edge.
3. You don't play politics with the lives of Americans killed overseas.

Mittens broke all three of those rules and he did so in the most craven and mendacious fashion. This isn't a matter of 'both sides do it'. I'm a politics junkie and I've watched every national election since 1980 with fanatical interest. In those three decades, I have never seen a major party candidate jump up and try to make foreign policy from the campaign stump by contradicting the sitting President and/or the Secretary of State. Yet, that is what Team Romney did last night.

As the consulate in Benghazi was under attack, Team Romney claimed that the POTUS sympathized with the attackers. While there were still protesters on the grounds of the embassy in Cairo, Team Romney criticized the embassy staff for a tweet that was sent out before the protests even started. That is a particular kind of scummy behavior. I think it is entirely right and proper that Mittens et. al. are pinned in the klieg lights of the media a startled squirrel on a country road seeing its last few moments of life barreling toward it.

Up until yesterday morning, I wanted Mittens to lose and lose badly not because of him but because of his party. I wouldn't have said that he didn't *deserve* the office of the Presidency, just that I didn't think he should be or would do a good job. Between Tuesday and Wednesday, however, Mittens showed himself undeserving of the Presidency. His lack of judgment and his utter disregard for consensus American values makes him unworthy of our trust. Utterly and completely unworthy.

Cheers
Aj

[Greyson]

Medusa, thank you for stepping up and starting this thread. I too am disturbed by this latest round of events. Cairo, Libya, Yemen. I am confounded by the total lack of regard the fellow who made this film had for the potential consequences of his action.

I agree with Dreadgeek, Diplomacy is a necessity. There is no moving backwards and going into some sort of isolation. Our,(the USA) "interests" and security are inseprable from global events.

I was touched to see everyday people in Libya holding up signs telling America this tragedy was not the work of the people. I even saw one sign with an apology. The geopolitical situation is complex. I do make a concious effort to remember all people have families, loved ones of some sort, aspirations and dreams.

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Ruff-

I think I can answer to why there is hate toward America in a lot of other countries at this time.
I wouldn' characterize the disdain that some other cultures/countries/sects feel toward us based on our freedome of expression or beliefs. I think their disdain is much more centered around the idea that many Americans don't think twice about stomping on someone else's right to believe what they want in the name of "you don't know any better" and "our way is the only way".

It's very ethno and Euro-centric, the way we do things a lot of times.

I think that in certain Muslim-heavy countries, there is the perception that "those arrogant Americans" think they can tell the rest of the world what to do and when to do it. Because honestly? We've operated like that before. And we've done some shitty things like busting up into other countries under the guise of "we're looking for weapons" when we were really looking to pilfer oil supplies. That kind of dirty dealing is a stain on our reputation, but also leaves the impression with folks that we want what we want at any cost.
With that, even if President Obama doesn't want to operate in a shady way, the history of the American political system is still in the memories of the folks who have been a victim of it.

Now, the idea that a movie about Mohammad gives people the right to act a damn violent fool and kill folks is not only ridiculous but it is the same mentality that causes people to murder Gays, rape women, and commit violent acts of racism in the name of "what they believe in". It is fear-based, aggressive, mob-mentality behavior and it is very, very dangerous.

I think it goes back farther than that, even, at the end of WWI when Great Britain, France and the U.S. cobbled together Iraq and many other countries without consideration of cultural, ethnic and religious differences. Yugoslavia was another example, in which it took a dictator to hold hostile factions together until it fell apart in a civil war.

Plus, our penchant in the 50's and 60's for setting up truly awful rulers (Saddam was one, the Shah of Iran was another) whose main qualification in our eyes was that they weren't communist. This was also true in SE Asia and in Central America, and even Cuba and the Dominican Republic.

It's a long, tragic story all around.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Medusa, thank you for stepping up and starting this thread. I too am disturbed by this latest round of events. Cairo, Libya, Yemen. I am confounded by the total lack of regard the fellow who made this film had for the potential consequences of his action.

I agree with Dreadgeek, Diplomacy is a necessity. There is no moving backwards and going into some sort of isolation. Our,(the USA) "interests" and security are inseprable from global events.

I was touched to see everyday people in Libya holding up signs telling America this tragedy was not the work of the people. I even saw one sign with an apology. The geopolitical situation is complex. I do make a concious effort to remember all people have families, loved ones of some sort, aspirations and dreams.

Seeing the sign from Libyans apologize touched me deeply. Too often, we Americans assume that the rest of the world is either one way or another way and the reality is far more complicated than that. That the Libyan people wanted to let the American people know that the attackers did not speak for them and did not enjoy their confidence or support moved me. Provided that we are cautious and restrained in finding the people who attacked our embassy I think that we will have made friends with the Libyan people for a while. My hope is that any actions we take will be limited and focused *only* on those armed groups that were responsible. We *must* answer this attack on our soil, however and it is a well-respected tenet of international relations that the embassy is the soil of that nation.


Cheers
Aj

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Seeing the sign from Libyans apologize touched me deeply. Too often, we Americans assume that the rest of the world is either one way or another way and the reality is far more complicated than that. That the Libyan people wanted to let the American people know that the attackers did not speak for them and did not enjoy their confidence or support moved me. Provided that we are cautious and restrained in finding the people who attacked our embassy I think that we will have made friends with the Libyan people for a while. My hope is that any actions we take will be limited and focused *only* on those armed groups that were responsible. We *must* answer this attack on our soil, however and it is a well-respected tenet of international relations that the embassy is the soil of that nation.


Cheers
Aj

God, me too, Aj. It serves as such a deep reminder that the people of Libya are not the Borg collective of extremists as some of our American news outlets would have us believe. They are human beings just as scared of war as we are. And yes, they have their crazy assholes just like we do.

I cringe to think of how we look to the Muslim community with the uprising of overt racism with regards to our own POTUS. White folks all over tv hanging the President in effigy and spouting the most hateful and ignorant shit imagineable. How in the hell are other countries able to respect us when our own people do things so disgusting.

My hope and wish is that many people see the photos circulating on Facebook and that it sparks their humanity toward "they are more like me than I thought" and away from "Let's get those terrorist Muslims".