Femmes: How do you like to be treated on a date?

[*Anya*]

I did something I had never done before, on my first date with my girl-friend (wrote about it somewhere in a post prior to this one).

When she walked me to my car to say goodbye ( I always used to use separate cars on a first date as a get-away, if needed); I asked her if I could kiss her goodnight.

She was not expecting it, and kind of stuttered, "Yes".

It was a great kiss, I said I enjoyed the date and got in my car and drove away.

When I looked in the rear-view mirror, she was still standing there.

It was classic and she still loves that I did that.

[kittygrrl]

engaging conversation about, astronomy, art, climate change, world hunger, (in other words passionate, or compassion for people, interests or causes)

[Joness]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

engaging conversation about, astronomy, art, climate change, world hunger, (in other words passionate, or compassion for people, interests or causes)

Totally agree with this chat! I would add in for me Quantum physical and energy work. Now that's what excites me :-)

[WingsOnFire]

I have been on 2 friend dates in the past week. She was quite chivalrous opening the door for me and always doing polite things. It was nice.

I personally like having their hand in the small of my back, holding the door for me, paying attention to me not their cellphone, just having wonderful easy conversation. I so miss being courted

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by Joness

Totally agree with this chat! I would add in for me Quantum physical and energy work. Now that's what excites me :-)

as in physics? if so, that would be a very interesting conversation

[imperfect_cupcake]

I like hearing personal stories. Openness about themselves. I can't STAND "dark and mysterious" or extremely private. Its never ever worked with me and people who are really private or shy because all I want to know is about their lives and they are too gaurded/insecure to tell me all the stories of their childhood, their growing up, their jobs, their travels, their exes, their love lives... the kinds of things you share with your friends. instead they are trying to be elusive, mysterious, polite... and it BORES the living crap out of me, I bloody hate it.

I have been told "I'm not going to let you know what kind of freak I am!" (oh. too bad. and I broke it off with her. I was sorely disappointed because I actually was looking forward to getting to know her. If shes not going to share her stuff with me then its a no goer)
and "But if I don't hold things back and I tell you everything, then there will be nothing left to say and hold your interest!"
??????????????????????????????????????????? wow. that's all I can say to that one. Fuck. Really? wow. Nevermind.

I love conversation about science and quantum and biology and chemistry but... I also love highly personal stuff that people can share and joke and laugh about. People being "polite" means they are very and oh so serious. I can't deal with it. Makes me want to open my wrists. I get treated like a delicate flower and there is no banter, piss assing about, no friendship and belly laughter and hooting and just being myself. I love urban life but jesus you don't have to have pole up your arse at a good restaurant. Please don't treat me like a 1950's girl. I'm not. I'm really, really not. Treat me like a sexy best mate that gives great head and you'd love to have a pic nic with and giggle with on a road trip.
I'm not a Lady. Nor am I a princess. I'm a partner and a good friend and great sex. I get muddy and wash up and go to the theater.
I'm human. I don't care if you make a call. or don't open all my doors. I don't want a fairy tale. I want you. and an adventure.

[firegal]

Maybe I didn't read enough of the past post.....

But treateted on a date to me is elementary....in the BF world


Kind ,courteous,civilous,like a lady....or a queen....

I could go on and on....as we define the BF dance...


All I know is she should ALWAYS feel like the lady that she is.... So I feel like the butch I am.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by firegal

....in the BF world

like a lady....or a queen....

I could go on and on....as we define the BF dance...


All I know is she should ALWAYS feel like the lady that she is.... So I feel like the butch I am.

That's not my definition of butch-femme. I definitely don't date folks who need to treat me like a queen. That would not work. I am still femme and still date butches. I don't enjoy the chivalry thing or any of that. Still femme. Still date butches.

[Uli]

Lady is such an antiquated, oppressive term. Discovering femme freed me from all that bullshit, thank god. I can cuss like a sailor, refuse to cross my legs, and I'm still a femme. Fuck "lady". *spit*

Edited to be more on topic: On a date, I like to be treated in a way that is authentic to the person I'm on the date with, so I can figure out, in an honest environment, if that person suits me and I them. Seems simple enough, no act, no fancy moves or games, just be.

[Gemme]

I don't feel that generally descriptive terms bear any weight on their own, so words like lady or proper or whatever are not derogatory or offensive at all.

We all have our personal ticks but it's just as offensive for someone to say that lady is an "ewww" word as it is when someone says another's sexual practices are "yucky" or offensive.

So, here's to hoping that folks are treated however they prefer to be treated through the holidays, 2014 and beyond.

[Uli]

I didn't say "lady" was derogatory or offensive. I said it was antiquated and oppressive. As in, it is a word that has been used to shame women and 'put them in their place' through multiple eras. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to oppress a person or group of people with one's personal sexual practices, unless rape counts as a personal, sexual practice.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I do share Ulis feelings about that word. I know lots of femmes like to "play the lady" to some knight of a butch in a fairy tale world they like to play. That is all well and good. But in many many real world places, the term lady, still pertains to it's class origins.

It's a *Title* of ownership of lands and aristocracy.

I just lived in a place that still has that title. And I know a lot of Americans think it's a quaint and shit to have a queen and barons and princesses but as someone who is NOT a royalist and would like the queens head off my money I would like to remind people that the term "Lady" is a term of privilege and class restriction. And often used as a word of shaming, even here. As in "someone who does not behave like a Lady" to shame someone for their "lack of class"

What do people really think that phrase really means, exactly? "Lack of Class" where exactly does everyone think it comes from?
It means you are common. As in not privileged and land owning.

This is very real stuff. Not just a past thing. It still goes on and I see it here and in many places where people think femmes should act like "Ladies" and butches their keep of their "honour"
Really? Do people have no honest idea that what they are playing at may be a lovely fairy game between two people in a novel fantasy, which is fabulous, but the word, in actual functioning in the real world outside of that, isn't very nice.

When butches are referred to as ladies I suspect it's not just the gender of the term that chafes to but the behaviour it also implies.

I chafe at it. I don't like it. I was never fond of it and the being constantly told to act like one, to not swear or be vulgar, cause that's not lady like. And if you aren't lady like then you have no class (privilege, back again) and don't deserve any respect.

It's a completely loaded term.

Utterly. And it often hold my tongue when it gets bandied about like it means nothing but something light and fluffy and playing princess. It pisses me off at times but I know 90% of people reading my words here won't get it or don't want to so I generally don't bother.

But Uli did not call anyone names or tell people they were worthless... She expressed her political distain at a WORD and it's oppressive use. Not a person. she may have not phrased it in a very careful way as best to avoid offending anyone's feelings, but I'm guessing that expressing a hatred of a word for good reason, people are not so incredibly delicate that expressing hatred of a word for it's political implications won't cause people to wail and bleed under their beds.

[firegal]

Originally Posted by Martina

That's not my definition of butch-femme. I definitely don't date folks who need to treat me like a queen. That would not work. I am still femme and still date butches. I don't enjoy the chivalry thing or any of that. Still femme. Still date butches.

Isn't that the beauty of this site,we can have differences in our definitions and share them.What works for one may not be the preference for another.Doesn't mean one is better or worse.

I must admit that I forgot that you sometimes need to be cautious here as to what terms are used because the interpretation here sometimes ends up way left of where the intent was meant to be.

I would like to retract the term queen....after some thought it really didn't capture what I meant..all I mean was to have them feel special,appreciated,kind,polite,enjoyment,laughter ,....Yada,Yada Yada..

I enjoy the old chivalry thing......still butch...still like femmes.

The term "treat like a lady" ..... I was raised to have that mean ,show respect,don't dismiss,kind,polite,thoughtfullness. If it sounds kinda old school I think it's because I kinda am.

I may not use the most current definition or the current more modern term,but I think my intent I described above.

I just felt I needed to clarify a bit what I meant.....Thanks for listening.

[imperfect_cupcake]

(By the way Gemme that's not directed at you. That's me ranting at the entirety of the site, the butch-femme groups I left, the universe and the moon)

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Uli

I didn't say "lady" was derogatory or offensive. I said it was antiquated and oppressive. As in, it is a word that has been used to shame women and 'put them in their place' through multiple eras. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to oppress a person or group of people with one's personal sexual practices, unless rape counts as a personal, sexual practice.

Actually, many folks even here have been shamed due to their sexual practices. Hell, our whole community has been shamed due to our sexual practices. That's why that came to mind for me.

You are right. My apologies for not using your exact words. For me, the sentiment is the same. Oppressive things are offensive to me, for example.

Many people, especially the younger generation, feel that the terms butch and femme are antiquated. While I don't feel that that mindset is opppressive by itself, it could be if someone decided to shame another for being one or the other.

Our community has had to take back lots of terms and words that have been used to oppress and shame us. Dyke and bull dagger and queer come to mind. Why not lady too? Why does lady have to be a measure of something? Why can't it just be?

Good discussion.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

(By the way Gemme that's not directed at you. That's me ranting at the entirety of the site, the butch-femme groups I left, the universe and the moon)

No worries! I always like to hear what's on your mind. We're all going to have words and phrases that rub us the wrong way, be they oppressive or offensive, both, or neither.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Thanks Gemme, glad you get my kvetching lol.

Because lady, used in most cases, is still a measure of how much class someone has. Lady still isn't just a word in our community. What's the opposite of a lady? Ask. You'll get answers. Not very nice ones. It's still very much a measure.

I've actually given up the ID of femme cause I personally can't deal with the concepts attached to it anymore, in North America. "Lady" concepts by those within the community is actually a rather big part of that for me.

I have less argument over the term "lady" outside of the butch-femme community. Far, far less. I get a lot of nods and agreement from most people. But not butch-femme on line groups. One on one? I get less argument. I get a facial expression of "ok I see your point of why it bugs you."

I would be more interested in reclaiming the word as not being a measure of anything, if it wasn't constantly being used that way in my daily life. Saying "I'm a lady" does not shock, does not challenge and does not make people think. It just looks like I'm buying in to the hierarchical pretence of privileged behaviour. Telling people "I'm not lady" is what challenges them to think about it.

Queer and dyke did not do that. It challenged people on their insults to a sexuality. That's the difference for me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I love this conversation that is taking place, I happen to use "Lady" in my Leather because I find it funny, dirty, and it's a sort of empowerment for me to wear it and use it in my kink....


I use *Lady* in particular because it's convenient for me, now what really pisses me off as a Femme is when someone wants to super impose certain kinds of *behaviors* that are deemed to be *ladylike*... I personally do not like being forced into a peg, or design to fit someone's fucking ego boost.


You want someone with good manners, empathy, or anything else that you (general you) fancy tagging as *lady like*, then good on you. That expectation and peg holing should be kept to your (general) consensual dynamic be it whatever it is. WHAT should not be happening is that certain behaviors dictate how all women/femmes/femalebodied persons *should* act, talk or be like....


For *me* that's oppressing, sexist, non consensual and it perpetuates that women.femme.femalebodied persons are only here to make it better for all those folks (general) that like to put women.femme.femalebodied person into boxes that we do not fit into...


So I use Lady, because when I use Sir, Master, Owner it seems to be a disturbing factor in people, most people though get it, that my ownership of Lady is like my ownership of baby girl, it's on my damn terms, on it's done my way, it it fits no one's standard definition of either, I own my Femme that was as well, it's either my way or it's not for me....


It hasn't kept me from having a good time for 44.5 years, matter of fact it keeps me quite busy and occupied in every way.

*curtsy*


P.S.

To clarify about my baby girl, I'd like to be transparent and say she's about 16.5 a Lolita and pretty much runs it her way as well... Happy New Year

[imperfect_cupcake]

Actually, Lady in leather concept I get. Just like I get Sir or Lord. Both are titles of ownership (Sir &Dame then next hierarchically is Lord & Lady, etc. for those who did not know, Lady trumps a Sir in postion). If I do that, if I'm in my Domme headspace, I prefer "your Grace" by bottoms and subs and slaves in conversation and "Countess" by tops, dom/me etc. if we want to get technical hahahaha.

Though I did get called Dame Baps by smart ass mates in London, which I don't mind at all. Smart ass/taking the piss is always acceptable.

But I do not with those terms to be used in my daily life. It has connotations of behaviour and privilege I don't agree with. If someone wants me to play Lady to their abused Lady's Maid, sure. Or upstart gentleman's valet, sure. But it stays there. I don't bring it out of that context.

I'm too much of a socialist. I like that Canada does not allow Canadians to receive Titles. We kept Conrad black out that way, at least for a while. HA!

The day that when asked "what's the opposite of a lady?" Can be answered with "I'm not sure what that means. I don't understand" will be the day I don't mind it's use applied to me and the day I stop getting mildly irritated with the way that's used in butch-femme communities.

But, I'm not a femme. So I no longer have to have that discussion. I just have to shrug and say "I'm not a femme" and walk on whatever side of the fucking pavement I feel like and swear and eat with my fingers and take my stockings off in the street cause they keep falling down (something I'm quite good at. Cause the shitty stockings in this country have me appalled. I miss Marks and Sparks stay ups. I'm great at sliding off my stockings while walking with someone without much fuss. It's like taking your bra off without taking off your shirt. It can be done smoothly with practice). I find this also seperates those who laugh from those who are horrified or embarrassed.

Blah blah de blah. I'm starting to bore myself a bit. I'm sure I'm putting others into a coma.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Actually, Lady in leather concept I get. Just like I get Sir or Lord. Both are titles of ownership (Sir &Dame then next hierarchically is Lord & Lady, etc. for those who did not know, Lady trumps a Sir in postion). If I do that, if I'm in my Domme headspace, I prefer "your Grace" by bottoms and subs and slaves in conversation and "Countess" by tops, dom/me etc. if we want to get technical hahahaha.

Though I did get called Dame Baps by smart ass mates in London, which I don't mind at all. Smart ass/taking the piss is always acceptable.

But I do not with those terms to be used in my daily life. It has connotations of behaviour and privilege I don't agree with. If someone wants me to play Lady to their abused Lady's Maid, sure. Or upstart gentleman's valet, sure. But it stays there. I don't bring it out of that context.

I'm too much of a socialist. I like that Canada does not allow Canadians to receive Titles. We kept Conrad black out that way, at least for a while. HA!

The day that when asked "what's the opposite of a lady?" Can be answered with "I'm not sure what them means. I don't understand" will be the day I don't mind it's use applied to me and the day I stop getting mildly irritated with the way that's used in butch-femme communities.

But, I'm not a femme. So I no longer have to have that discussion. I just have to shrug and say "I'm not a femme" and walk on whatever side of the fucking pavement I feel like and swear and eat with my fingers and take my stockings off in the street cause they keep falling down (something I'm quite good at. Cause the shitty stockings in this country have me appalled. I miss Marks and Sparks stay ups. I'm great at sliding off my stockings while walking with someone without much fuss. It's like taking your bra off without taking off your shirt. It can be done smoothly with practice). I find this also seperates those who laugh from those who are horrified or embarrassed.

Blah blah de blah. I'm starting to bore myself a bit. I'm sure I'm putting others into a coma.

HB, I heart you because like you, I am just Snow, a Femme that regardless of what someone says I have to fit into as far as what Femme should be I never have and never will. When I read you I hear you, and I feel you because at times I have wanted to strip myself of Femme because I looked upon my person and NOTHING matched to the cookie cutter misconception of Femme, because it's gender for*me* I can't strip it off, it won't go nowhere, it futile and destructive for *me*..


Just cause I can piss standing up, doesn't mean I not what I choose and have fought hard accept, I am glad you are bringing it up and no, it's not boring it needs to be talked about, because it's important especially when we date, because I can't tell you how many damn times I have lost my mental hard on from having someone have an expectation of how I should behave, it softens my cock, it shuts my brain off and it makes me want to be sadistic and not the good kind of sadistic.

Feminine presentation does not dictate how far I can spit a loogey of I want or how I shouldn't cause that's not "lady like"


Fuck that noise!


So with that said, when dating, it would be best not to date women.femme.femalebodied folk who do not fit your image of what that should be and if someone starts that shit, ask for the check, shake their hand, go get your nails done and go have fun, eventually even if it's just for a fun fuck, you're gonna run into someone, who appreciates the creature you are....


Thanks for always pulling back the curtain, I am glad someone does!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Aw. Snows. You really are a perfect sweetheart. I'd so shag you. Or be shagged or however that would work for you. Hahaha. I'd give you the warmest hug ever if you were in the room.

I think for now with my level of fed up ness I'm just going to pass on the ID just for now and stick with Dolly Dyke. My lack of seeing people like me, which wasn't the case in the UK, sort of has me at the end of my previously femme rope. I get tired of "you're femme? Where's your handbag hahaha" by butches and having to say things like "up your ass. With your head."

I understand femme as gender. Completely. It's pretty much the way I see it which makes me rip my eye balls out when people start talking about femmes as being ladies. Not ladies = disgusting and improper and not femme

If we take that logic and apply it to another gender, let's say butch... Because they aren't feminine, butches aren't women. And we all know that's not true. Look at butches. There's a fucktruck full of women butches around.

So I hear you. And I'll fight your femme corner. But presently, I just don't have the energy for explaining to hurt egos:

why femme doesn't mean all the prescribed behaviour stuff to someone who keeps moving to the outside of the pavement when I'm trying to look at stuff,

thinking that I should be wrapped in cotton and saved

is horrified when I'm "vulgar"

thinks glancing noticeably at my tits during a date is horrid and disrespectful to my delicate femininity

that if I should be the princess of centre of the universe while around (instead of an equal and a friend)

kissed chastely on the cheek on the second date. Maybe (another reason why I don't date...)

When I explain to them how much I find that stuff really not me, it upsets me and I feel "othered" by it (distanced form them, made to feel different, like I'm being treated like a romantic unit by prescribed rules instead of recognized as the individual I am, with individual wants and likes) then I'm:

hurting their ego
not a lady because that is how you treat ladies
if she doesn't like it that way then she is not really very femme
she's cruel
she's a big meanie
I was only trying to show her I think she's a special jewel to be worshiped [again, still not getting it....]
she just wants to use me like a dildo if she wants sex
she's indiscriminate and has a dirty vagina (I've actually HEARD these things said to me, and many more, in the year I've been home.... )

All these rules make me dispair. I'm also not used to them anymore. They weren't there for 10 years. I find them restrictive and chafing. It's like putting a bra on that you didn't have for 10 years and find it really doesn't fit.

And everyone around is talks like it's the best fitting bra in the world and you wonder if your tits are freaky or what.

I'll keep the femme one that fit in the UK. I think too many people in the community on this side of the Atlantic, especially south of the boarder, have a different understanding of the word for it to not be a royal pain in the fucking arse to say I'm femme and not have it mean all these things I find torturous. I get that many girls love to be treated that way. Bravo. Fine. I'm just not one of you. And they out number me by far, it appears, or people wouldn't be trying to hard to shove me into that mode of behaviour.

I have to constantly disclaimer "femme" to others. IN my community. I actually have to do more now to those IN rather than out. I think that's sort of telling to me, for my comfort levels. So I think, for now, when I talk to anyone from North America, I'll just use another word. It saves me a lot of grief of explanation.

But to those that get me? Yeah