2012 US General Election Discussions: Start to Finish

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Vanessa Emma Goldman

or as i prefer to call them: Greedy Old Patriarchs!

unfortunately, the Demos are not much better especially when it comes to taking bribes from, and then being indebted to, Big Corporate Capitalism. i voted for Ralph Nader in 2000, took a lot of crap for it from other left of center people, and so held my nose and voted for Demos at the top of the ticket (USA President or Michigan Governor depending on the year). and i continue to be horribly disappointed, both by President Obama and by former Michigan Governor Granholm.

so once again i am debating whether to keep voting for the Evil of Two Lessers Democrats, or just say to hell with them and vote strictly for Greens, Socialists, or other real progressives who do not take bribes from the top one percent. and i am leaning heavily towards the Green/Socialist/other real progressives option. yes, i know, they probably won't win and maybe Repubs will end up winning. but even when Demos do win, it seems like the real winners end up being the Greedy Old Patriarchs.

I had, largely, stopped voting Democratic in the 90s. I did vote for Clinton in '92 (my first ever vote for a Democrat, I voted Republican in 88 and would have done the same in 84 had I been 18) but in '96 and 2000 I voted Green. IF the GOP were not complete enthrall to a radical pseudo-libertarian ideology that covered up some theocratic memes, I would probably vote for a third party. The problem is that, at this point, the choice is no longer between the lesser of two evils but between a feckless but generally well-intentioned party (the Democrats) and an effective but generally malevolent party that appears, taking them at their word, to be trying to bring about a plutocratic theocracy.

It is not that I think the GOP elites--the old-money elites--want a theocracy. I don't believe they do--a robber-baron plutocracy but not a theocracy. The GOP base, on the other hand, does want a theocracy. If the GOP elites had the same relationship to their base as the Democratic elites have to theirs, that might not be so worrisome. The problem is that the relationships are fundamentally different. The GOP elites fear their base, the Democrats hate their base. Ultimately, this means that in the long run the GOP will try to substantially appease their base by moving their agenda down the road a bit while the Democratic party will try to simply convince their base that they are on their side while not actually trying to move the agenda anywhere.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I had, largely, stopped voting Democratic in the 90s. I did vote for Clinton in '92 (my first ever vote for a Democrat, I voted Republican in 88 and would have done the same in 84 had I been 18) but in '96 and 2000 I voted Green. IF the GOP were not complete enthrall to a radical pseudo-libertarian ideology that covered up some theocratic memes, I would probably vote for a third party. The problem is that, at this point, the choice is no longer between the lesser of two evils but between a feckless but generally well-intentioned party (the Democrats) and an effective but generally malevolent party that appears, taking them at their word, to be trying to bring about a plutocratic theocracy.

It is not that I think the GOP elites--the old-money elites--want a theocracy. I don't believe they do--a robber-baron plutocracy but not a theocracy. The GOP base, on the other hand, does want a theocracy. If the GOP elites had the same relationship to their base as the Democratic elites have to theirs, that might not be so worrisome. The problem is that the relationships are fundamentally different. The GOP elites fear their base, the Democrats hate their base. Ultimately, this means that in the long run the GOP will try to substantially appease their base by moving their agenda down the road a bit while the Democratic party will try to simply convince their base that they are on their side while not actually trying to move the agenda anywhere.

Cheers
Aj

Yes, a theocracy is very much what the GOP wants. I don't think this was true decades ago, but true now. And I no longer recognize the Democratic Party as having any substance.

As the news of S & P's (even though it hasn't much of a track record) down grade of the US settles in- I am more discusted with both parties as they simply continue the blame game and can't see the forest for the trees in terms of what the rating agencies are really trying to get across- that Congressional dysfunction really is taking down our economy which will hurt us all in various ways. Every single one of us.

I used to be able to see some reason to back the Dems due to social ideology- but I no longer feel that way. They, as well as the GOP, never offer substantive answers to our problems, only partisan babble.

For the very first time in my adult life, I do feel helpless and hopeless about the US political system. Neither major party has one ounce of integrity left or the ability to see past party lines in order to effect the changes that are needed.

I do want a Congressional shake-up (including of far left-wing progressives that won't compromise), but not of religious zealotry and judgement- and that seems to be the only game in town.

There was so much fresh, new hope in the 2008 general election along with a sense that there really could be change that reflects the needs and challenges of the 21st Century.

And in all of this, the debt-ceiling bill we ended up with is only going to get us more of the same Congressional dysfunction and gridlock- and more fringe ideology from both the right and the left.

[*Anya*]

News this AM: per US Dept. Of Agriculture latest stats, 45.8% of Americans now on food stamps-the highest number ever. This is a 70% increase since 2007.

In the United States of America. This is a tragedy.

And The Band Played On~

(Randy Shilts, book of same name)

[AtLast]

I know I am thinking deeply about 2012 and how I will most likely be voting differently- both Aj and Kobi bring up variables I need to consider. I left the Democratic Party prior to 2008 (registered without party affiliation after being registered with the Green Party). I think I have been sobered of late and frankly will vote more for realistic goals than any party platform be as it may re- if a GOP candidate best fits for me, they will get my vote and the same for a Democrat, Green Party, etc. candidate).

Are other people feeling like their 2012 choices will be different?

[Toughy]

I'm voting for Obama and my current representatives up for re-election in Congress.....that would be Barbara Lee in the House - I love her. I'm not sure if Feinstein is up for re-election. Boxer was re-elected in 2010.

If we voters deliver a majority in the House and 60 Senators to Obama in 2012, then the Democrats will be forced to listen to their constituents. They will not need any Republicans to pass legislation.

[Glenn]

I'm voting for Obama also. He's our homey from Chicago who chilled out in the gay bars with us.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm voting for Obama and my current representatives up for re-election in Congress.....that would be Barbara Lee in the House - I love her. I'm not sure if Feinstein is up for re-election. Boxer was re-elected in 2010.

If we voters deliver a majority in the House and 60 Senators to Obama in 2012, then the Democrats will be forced to listen to their constituents. They will not need any Republicans to pass legislation.

If it looks like this is possible by the time of the election- that there could actually be enough Dems in both Houses to stop all of this partisan crap that goes on without getting things done, I might align with the Dems. The idea of going through more years of how it has been going makes me crazy.

Yes, Feinstein is up for re-election. I will vote for her.

I honestly do have a problem with Obama not getting behind the Simpson-Bowles recomendations back in December. I hope he is makes a whole lot more noise about trade agreements getting done when the Congress reconvenes. Critical for job creation.

[AtLast]

Had to post this somehwere!!!





AMEN!!!

[AtLast]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...KEAtQccPHoJrXO


Of course Perry lost steam- just like Bachmann, even the GOP can see that he is an idiot!

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

News this AM: per US Dept. Of Agriculture latest stats, 45.8% of Americans now on food stamps-the highest number ever. This is a 70% increase since 2007.

In the United States of America. This is a tragedy.

And The Band Played On~

(Randy Shilts, book of same name)

45.8 million for 15% but still outrageous

[Corkey]

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...n-cain-top-10/

10 things you should know about Herman Cain.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Corkey

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...n-cain-top-10/

10 things you should know about Herman Cain.

Thanks Corkey- well worth posting these 10 things. I tried to discuss issues with his supporters on his FB page and was deleted in under 4 minutes. They don't like to talk this about this stuff!


ThinkProgress has put together the top 10 hits from Cain’s presidential bid:

(1) PLEDGED THAT HE “WILL NOT” APPOINT MUSLIMS IN HIS ADMINISTRATION: In an interview with ThinkProgress earlier this year, Herman Cain declared that he “will not” appoint a Muslim in his administration if he were elected president. In the months that followed, Cain qualified his position a number of times – at one point even telling Glenn Beck that he would appoint Muslims but only on the condition that they take a special loyalty oath – before finally recanting this unconstitutional stance and issuing an apology to Muslim-Americans. Unfortunately, since that time Cain has continued to peddle the ridiculous notion that Sharia law is a threat to the American legal system.

(2) TOLD THINKPROGRESS, “I DON’T THINK THE CURRENT MINIMUM WAGE IS NECESSARY”: During his time as the top lobbyist for the restaurant and fast food industry, Cain fought against an increase in the minimum wage. During a recent ThinkProgress interview, Cain went further, saying “I don’t think the current minimum wage is necessary.” As Greg Sargent noted, not even conservative icon Barry Goldwater supported eliminating the minimum wage.

(3) CONFUSED BY BASIC CONCEPT OF ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN PEACE PROCESS: In an interview on Fox News Sunday, Cain was asked his opinion on the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Cain was clearly confused by the question, responding, “The right of return? [pause] The right of return?” When host Chris Wallace explained the issue to him, Cain suggested that Israel wouldn’t have a problem “with people returning,” a prospect Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu fiercely opposes. The incident was not the first time Cain displayed lack of familiarity with international affairs. Previously, Cain said he doesn’t know enough to say what he thinks about the war in Afghanistan.

(4) IMMIGRATION PLAN INVOLVES A “GREAT WALL OF CHINA” AND A “MOAT [WITH] ALLIGATORS”: In a speech to Iowa Republicans, Cain called for building a fence along the entire U.S.–Mexico border, comparing the effort to the Great Wall of China. Building a fence along the nearly 2,000-mile border not only wouldn’t work, it would cost the U.S. hundreds of billions of dollars in the process. Cain also suggested building a moat next to the fence and filling it with alligators.

(5) BELIEVES “WE ALREADY RECOGNIZE” THE GOVERNMENT OF TAIWAN: Discussing U.S.-Chinese relations with ThinkProgress, Cain confirmed fears that he lacked a firm grasp on foreign policy matters when he declared that “we already recognize” the government of Taiwan. In fact, the United States stopped recognizing Taiwan in 1979. Cain, visibly confused about relations between the U.S, China, and Taiwan, refused to say whether this belief meant he planned to send an ambassador to Taiwan, saying instead, “President Cain will get back to you!” Lest the matter seem trivial, Chinese-Taiwanese relations are extraordinarily tense and the matter of diplomatic relations with the United States carries enormous implications for the billions of people living in southeast Asia.

(6) WANTS TO PUT DIRTY ENERGY CEOS IN CHARGE OF EPA REGULATIONS: After an Iowa voter asked about increasing domestic oil production, Cain proposed creating a commission consisting of businessmen from the coal, oil, shale oil, and natural gas industries to gut environmental protections. Cain even said he would appoint the CEO of Shell, claiming the company had been “abused” by the EPA. Cain has close ties to several top oil executives.

(7) BELIEVES IRAQ SHOULD PAY U.S. BACK FOR INVADING THEIR COUNTRY: Cain suggested in a 2008 interview that Iraq should pay the United States back for invading and occupying their country. Even Rick Santorum, who nobody would confuse as a moderate, strongly disagreed with this idea, saying, “I think that would send every possible wrong signal.” Since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq began, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died and millions have been displaced.

(8) TRIED TO HIDE HIS GAY TREASURER: A former staffer to Cain, Kevin Hall, testified in court that Cain attempted to cover up the involvement of his openly gay PAC treasurer Scott Toomey. According to Hall, the campaign was trying to cover up Toomey’s involvement due to his sexuality. Cain’s lawyers declined to dispute the allegations.

(9) SAYS HE WOULD SUPPORT A NATIONAL PHOTO ID LAW: With an increasing number of conservative governors implement new requirements for voters to present photo identification at the polls, Cain told ThinkProgress he’d support such a bill on a federal level. “If you need a picture to get on an airplane, why shouldn’t you need one in order to be able to vote?” Cain asked. To be clear, voting is not like getting on an airplane – only one is the basis of our very democracy – and requirements that citizens present photo IDs instead of other forms of identification has the potential to disenfranchise millions of voters, especially minorities and poorer individuals.

(10) BELIEVES THAT AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BAN MOSQUES: During a Fox News Sunday interview, Cain professed his belief that if a community wants to ban a mosque, “they have a right to do that.” Rather than idle banter, Cain’s comments came fresh off his speech blasting the proposed expansion of an existing Islamic center in Murfreesboro, Tennessee because it was, in the former pizza executive’s estimation, “not an innocent mosque.” Cain’s view is squarely at odds with not only the Constitution, but basic precepts of tolerance and diversity as well.

ThinkProgress intern Karl Singer contributed to this report.

[SelfMadeMan]

It is not someone’s fault if they succeeded, it is someone’s fault if they failed. If you don’t have a job, and you’re not rich, blame yourself
– Herman Cain

Mr. Cain - the unemployment rate in the US is a statistic made up of individuals ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR JOBS. It's right around 8% right now. This means that 8% of the Americans that desperately WANT a job can’t get a job. So please enlighten me, how exactly is that THEIR fault? If you lose it all because your employer terminates thousands of jobs, and yours happens to be one of those jobs, and because of that, you lose your home, your life savings, and consequently, your credit rating falls in the crapper, please explain to me how that is YOUR fault? This is the pitfall of the blatantly ignorant ideology of Herman Cain, and the majority of the Tea Party & far right supporters touting him as the next big thing. They would like us not to believe that environment, the economy, and big government matter - that big corporations & government aren't accountable at all. They would like us to believe that it is the individual - the ones losing their homes, losing it all and suffering, because they CAN'T get a job, who are at fault. It's bullshit - and it needs to be called out as such. /rant

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

It is not someone’s fault if they succeeded, it is someone’s fault if they failed. If you don’t have a job, and you’re not rich, blame yourself
– Herman Cain

Mr. Cain - the unemployment rate in the US is a statistic made up of individuals ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR JOBS. It's right around 8% right now. This means that 8% of the Americans that desperately WANT a job can’t get a job. So please enlighten me, how exactly is that THEIR fault? If you lose it all because your employer terminates thousands of jobs, and yours happens to be one of those jobs, and because of that, you lose your home, your life savings, and consequently, your credit rating falls in the crapper, please explain to me how that is YOUR fault? This is the pitfall of the blatantly ignorant ideology of Herman Cain, and the majority of the Tea Party & far right supporters touting him as the next big thing. They would like us not to believe that environment, the economy, and big government matter - that big corporations & government aren't accountable at all. They would like us to believe that it is the individual - the ones losing their homes, losing it all and suffering, because they CAN'T get a job, who are at fault. It's bullshit - and it needs to be called out as such. /rant

Actually, it's 8 percent among whites. It is about double that for african americans and latinos.

[Toughy]

Herman Cain will NEVER EVER be the GOP Presidential nominee in 2012. He might be picked as a VP, but not the President.....

no way in hell will the right tolerate having 2 black men running against each other for President....no way, no how. Actually I have my doubts they will pick him for VP because that could mean another black man for President should something happen to their white man.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

It is not someone’s fault if they succeeded, it is someone’s fault if they failed. If you don’t have a job, and you’re not rich, blame yourself
– Herman Cain

Mr. Cain - the unemployment rate in the US is a statistic made up of individuals ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR JOBS. It's right around 8% right now. This means that 8% of the Americans that desperately WANT a job can’t get a job. So please enlighten me, how exactly is that THEIR fault? If you lose it all because your employer terminates thousands of jobs, and yours happens to be one of those jobs, and because of that, you lose your home, your life savings, and consequently, your credit rating falls in the crapper, please explain to me how that is YOUR fault? This is the pitfall of the blatantly ignorant ideology of Herman Cain, and the majority of the Tea Party & far right supporters touting him as the next big thing. They would like us not to believe that environment, the economy, and big government matter - that big corporations & government aren't accountable at all. They would like us to believe that it is the individual - the ones losing their homes, losing it all and suffering, because they CAN'T get a job, who are at fault. It's bullshit - and it needs to be called out as such. /rant

Totally agree with your rant. But would like to point out that the unemployment rate is 9.1% (source: Google Public Data) (just to be an annoying nit-pick )

ETA: I decided to see what California was: 12% New York State, on the other hand, is 8%

[SelfMadeMan]

I just checked the Bureau of Labor Statistics website and it was reported as 9.1% overall in September...

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Linus

Totally agree with your rant. But would like to point out that the unemployment rate is 9.1% (source: Google Public Data) (just to be an annoying nit-pick )

No problemo, my numbers weren't the MOST recent... I was mad and ranted without updating my info It happens... lol

[Toughy]

So Rick Perry's son is an investment banker and the SEC rules say he cannot campaign with his father as long as he has a job as an investment banker. Son quit his job so he can help out dear ole Dad.

Mother says that her son lost his job because of the over-regulation of banking by the Obama administration. It's Obama's fault her son lost his job. She sympathizes with the unemployed.

Does anyone in the family have a working brain?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1011632.html

[SelfMadeMan]

"George W. Bush did a incredible job in the presidency, defending us from freedom." –Rick Perry

That's the level of intelligence we're dealing with here...