Communication 101: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Medusa]

I'm kinda worn out but wanted to make a note here to further this line of discussion:

Direct v. Indirect Communication:

I am a huge fan of direct communication. Especially in areas of conflict. I feel like it does more to foster a healthy situation if the people having an issue (and it doesnt have to be an "issue", it could be something they disagree on, etc.) are open, honest, and authentic when talking about how they feel or what is bothering them.
I'm wondering, are there times when indirect communication is better? Im trying to think of examples and the only one I can come up with is perhaps a situation where someone is trying to save someone else's feelings.

I actually get pretty pissy when people use indirect communication with me and I'm not a fan of "silent treatments" or passive-aggressive postings on shared websites or telling everyone but me that you are having a problem with me.
I was reading some articles and found a pretty good breakdown about different styles of communication here:
http://serenityonlinetherapy.com/assertiveness.htm

According to this article, there are 4 types of communicators:
Passive, Aggressive, Passive-Aggressive, and Assertive

A lot of the examples felt pretty dead-on. Do each of these styles of communication have their own merits? Times when each style is appropriate?
Im trying to get out of my unilateral "Assertive is always best" thinking because I do think that there are times when you have to alter your communication style in order to be "heard".
Wondering if anyone had thoughts?

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I was reading some articles and found a pretty good breakdown about different styles of communication here:
http://serenityonlinetherapy.com/assertiveness.htm

According to this article, there are 4 types of communicators:
Passive, Aggressive, Passive-Aggressive, and Assertive

A lot of the examples felt pretty dead-on. Do each of these styles of communication have their own merits? Times when each style is appropriate?
Im trying to get out of my unilateral "Assertive is always best" thinking because I do think that there are times when you have to alter your communication style in order to be "heard".
Wondering if anyone had thoughts?

Hi Medusa, and thanks for the link.

I agree that direct and assertive is usually best...and it's something that I've been working on for years. Having grown up with a single narcissistic parent, I was trained to be passive (and a caretaker), and speaking up for myself was/is challenging. Since my childhood household was also full of anger, I "cope" with that by clamming up and shutting down...so aggressive communicators are hard for me to deal with as well.

I used to fall into passive/aggressive crap pretty frequently, because I really "couldn't" speak up and assert myself. After much work, I'm able to do that...and the passive/aggressive fell by the wayside...except when I'm faced with a hyper-aggressive personality. That's when I tend to fall back into that old dysfunctional pattern.

Since I now find passive/aggressive exceedingly yucky and destructive...I sometimes opt instead for purely passive. I won't fight. I won't engage. If I feel like someone absolutely will not listen to any other view...then I'm done and I shut down. Coupled with that though is a boundary that gets drawn in my head...and I tend to write them off as someone that I choose to ignore completely. The sucky part of that, though, is that I then lose all input from them...even when they aren't in hyper-aggressive mode, because I've drawn that line in my head. Basically, they get labelled "bully" and I stop listening.

I know that's not a great solution either...but I'm at a loss for a better one. I'd be very interested in knowing what others do in this situation, and how they approach it for a better outcome...

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I'm kinda worn out but wanted to make a note here to further this line of discussion:

Direct v. Indirect Communication:

I am a huge fan of direct communication. Especially in areas of conflict. I feel like it does more to foster a healthy situation if the people having an issue (and it doesnt have to be an "issue", it could be something they disagree on, etc.) are open, honest, and authentic when talking about how they feel or what is bothering them.
I'm wondering, are there times when indirect communication is better? Im trying to think of examples and the only one I can come up with is perhaps a situation where someone is trying to save someone else's feelings.

I actually get pretty pissy when people use indirect communication with me and I'm not a fan of "silent treatments" or passive-aggressive postings on shared websites or telling everyone but me that you are having a problem with me.
I was reading some articles and found a pretty good breakdown about different styles of communication here:
http://serenityonlinetherapy.com/assertiveness.htm

According to this article, there are 4 types of communicators:
Passive, Aggressive, Passive-Aggressive, and Assertive

A lot of the examples felt pretty dead-on. Do each of these styles of communication have their own merits? Times when each style is appropriate?
Im trying to get out of my unilateral "Assertive is always best" thinking because I do think that there are times when you have to alter your communication style in order to be "heard".
Wondering if anyone had thoughts?

Hi, Medusa.

I tend to separate out communication styles from indirect or direct communication. Although, some communication styles involve indirect communication (passive and passive-aggressive).

In terms of communication styles, I tend to concur that assertive communication is always best in relationships. This is also direct communication.

The only place in my life where I may use indirect communication (but NOT a passive or passive-aggressive communication style) is in my work (I am a psychotherapist). If a client is very defensive about something or unable to see something in themselves that would be helpful to them, I may say something indirectly I hope will sort of "tuck into the back of their head" that they will may eventually access later. If I say it directly, they won't hear it, but if I say it indirectly (often more than once), they may actually come to it on their own. I think I may do this in my partner relationships as well, but it is less conscious. Anyway, I don't know if the above has an actual term to describe it, it is just something I noticed that I do.

My only other thought on this topic is that certainly when I know that a topic is sensitive to another I tread lightly in how I approach something, but I am still always direct.

So, I guess I am saying that in daily life, I can't see anything but direct, assertive communication being best, coupled with sensitivity when needed. As a side note, the sensitivity piece is something I struggle with in daily life.

ETA: For me, I can be too blunt at times (in daily life, not work), unless I am really clear that it is a sensitve topic for someone. I have worked on this forever. My entire family (including extended family) were very direct and blunt, so of course this is what I was taught. I also have to pay attention to "filtering"...sometimes I say all of my thoughts (not thinking about how they can impact someone) and that can be hurtful to others. I tend to be very cognitive and not realize that others would receive what I say from an emotional place.

The main place where this has been a challenge for me is in my partner relationships. I think that my friends tend to be more "thick skinned people", while my partners are not, so I find the problem happening there (partner relationships), more often. Hmmm...just realized that...something to think on...thanks.

[Medusa]

Thanks Jo and Dapper!

Dapper - I think what you said about saying something indirectly and kind of "planting a seed" makes a lot of sense. I have done this myself in some situations and feel like it's a....maybe a "suggestive" form of communication.
I think that most evolved people know on some level when they aren't communicating in healthy ways and might choose to do so (or maybe not even "choose" but rather fall back on patterns that feel comfortable) for various reasons. I know for me, when I have felt threatened I will get defensive as a way to "wall myself off" from what I perceive to be an "attack" from the other person.
One of the ways I combat that behavior in myself is to remember how it feels when someone else does it to me and how it rarely furthers conversation.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Thanks Jo and Dapper!

Dapper - I think what you said about saying something indirectly and kind of "planting a seed" makes a lot of sense. I have done this myself in some situations and feel like it's a....maybe a "suggestive" form of communication.
I think that most evolved people know on some level when they aren't communicating in healthy ways and might choose to do so (or maybe not even "choose" but rather fall back on patterns that feel comfortable) for various reasons. I know for me, when I have felt threatened I will get defensive as a way to "wall myself off" from what I perceive to be an "attack" from the other person.
One of the ways I combat that behavior in myself is to remember how it feels when someone else does it to me and how it rarely furthers conversation.

Medusa -

Yes, "planting a seed" is the best way to describe it. I also love you terming it "suggestive communication" (or calling it a "suggestive form of communication", rather). That fits, perfectly!

[morningstar55]

great thread.........
i do know that... my communcations can be a mess sometimes. .. lol

[Kobi]

I think one has to be careful when trying to categorize STYLES of communication into just 4 possibilities.

If it was that simple, humans would be a wee bit better at it.

Different people, different situations, different arenas evoke different responses from us. The style we choose to use may depend on a particular result we are trying to evoke; or our current state of being i.e. tired, sad,
angry; the role we are playing i.e. child, parent, employee etc. It is seldom a clear field of play in a nice air tight vacuum.

For example, someone might think I am communicating passively when actually I am really not in the mood to be engaged, or I am disinterested in the topic, or I am refusing to be baited, or I know the plumber can fix my broken hot water heater on a weekend and how I "play" this might influence if he charges me something reasonable or if I will have to take out a second mortgage.

Same holds true for the other styles. It is not necessarily reflecting what one might think.

I try and keep in mind that words can hurt, and to try and choose them carefully. I am not always successful.

I also try and remember to be aware of my own internal state and how this is affecting my reactions. It stops a lot of things from coming out of my mouth.

And, I find the most "dangerous" situations for me is in the "heat of the moment" - whether it be good heat or not so good heat. These times, I try and remember the day I was ranting and raving, pacing, gesturing, and swearing as any good Italian would do. My partner, at the time, sat on the couch peeling a banana.....very calmly, very deliberately and oh so so so slowly. I was mezmerized by her banana. It was a very calming thing to do, a bit erotic, and simply distracted me from whatever I was upset about.
The image never fails to calm me down and get me back on track.

Indirect communication sometimes is helpful with certain people. I try to interject humor when I am doing this. Helps if you understand my humor.

Direct communication is preferable with me. I can be extremely obtuse.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I think one has to be careful when trying to categorize STYLES of communication into just 4 possibilities.

If it was that simple, humans would be a wee bit better at it.

Well, yeah. I think that Medusa was just posting one web site up for us to discuss.

There are lots of stuff out there, like this:

http://www.drbackman.com/communication-styles.htm

I do think what she posted is the most common descriptors when groups gather to discuss, "communication styles", however.

[Toughy]

Very interesting website with info on ways to better communicate.........I did one of their study groups and it was really good and fit nicely with cognitive behavior therapy.

http://www.cnvc.org/

[katsarecool]

Frankie, my cat is a very passive-aggressive communicator! I am serious! The little stinker... for example when walking to anywhere from my bedroom if his bowl is empty he will flop down right in front of my feet and refuse to budge unless I head to the kitchen. That can be dangerous for a black cat at night with a mom who has balance and walking problems.

I think in order to have a good relationship (with anyone people and pets) passive-aggression should be avoided at all costs.

[waxnrope]

I appreciate the discussion on communication. Mostly, I appreciate the recognition that there are multiple styles. And, the unfortunate reality that not one style is suitable for every person.

Where I think that we need to exercise caution is in the manner in which we throw out the term "passive aggressive." This is a psychiatric term relating to a personality disorder. It has ranking within the DSM (currently IV) scales. What this means, like the past use of calling one's neighbor schizophrenic without having fully understood the dimensions of the disorder, calling people passive aggressive without having the tools (or the credentials), the objective observations can just serve to belittle behavior which one disagrees. I think we should be careful here.
For anyone with interest, the following link provides the criteria for the DIAGNOSIS of this disorder. Just reading it does not give the right to sling it around at random. There are nuances ..

http://www.ptypes.com/passive-aggpd.html

Just my $.02 worth and not meant to attack anyone who has used it ... merely a suggestion to reflect about how common the complex and complicated (and, dangerous if misused) commonly accepted practices become.

[Just_G]

I come from a very dysfunctional family where nobody talks about anything. Everyone always acts like everything is okay and never asks questions beyond the basic, "how ya doin'?" type of thing.

Because I have been around this my whole life, I didn't realize what a bad communicator I have been. I have been told that I don't ever give back any input and I never ask any questions when in the midst of a conversation. This has caused me problems in the last couple of relationships I have been in, and when they point it out I feel like I am being scolded...when in all actuality, I thought if I asked anything I would just be being nosey. I hate that I am not inquisitive...apparently some people think I just don't care, when I am actually listening; just not saying much.

When I type things out, I am a fantastic communicator, but in person, apparently I am lacking.

Does anyone know of any books that help with communication?

I read the link that Medusa posted, and I know that I am a passive communicator now. Talk about hitting the nail on the head! It's funny because I think I am so social and outgoing, but when it comes to sitting and holding a serious conversation, apparently, I am something completely different. I have been really frustrated with this lately, and know that this is taking it's toll on my relationships. I hate that I just "take" whatever someone has to say to/about me, and it ends up feeling like I am in trouble or "less than" because I am not the best at communicating.

I guess add this to my list of changes for 2011!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I appreciate the discussion on communication. Mostly, I appreciate the recognition that there are multiple styles. And, the unfortunate reality that not one style is suitable for every person.

Where I think that we need to exercise caution is in the manner in which we throw out the term "passive aggressive." This is a psychiatric term relating to a personality disorder. It has ranking within the DSM (currently IV) scales. What this means, like the past use of calling one's neighbor schizophrenic without having fully understood the dimensions of the disorder, calling people passive aggressive without having the tools (or the credentials), the objective observations can just serve to belittle behavior which one disagrees. I think we should be careful here.
For anyone with interest, the following link provides the criteria for the DIAGNOSIS of this disorder. Just reading it does not give the right to sling it around at random. There are nuances ..

http://www.ptypes.com/passive-aggpd.html

Just my $.02 worth and not meant to attack anyone who has used it ... merely a suggestion to reflect about how common the complex and complicated (and, dangerous if misused) commonly accepted practices become.

Hey, wax!

Just wanted to note that Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder was actually removed as a diagnosis from the DSM in the DSM IV version (published 1994, text version 2000). It was moved to Appendix B (for reference).

For me, using the term passive aggressive as it relates to communication styles is very different from someone have a Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder. One can communicate in a passive-aggressive way, but not meet the criteria for the old Passive - Aggressive Personality Disorder diagnosis.

So, when I say that someone is communicating in a passive-aggressive fashion, I am in no way saying that they have a personality disorder. I am merely speaking to their communication style.

[Gemme]

I've used all of the communication styles listed (subconsciously and intentionally) and think there is a time and place for all of them. It all depends on who you are communicating with, though I do agree that assertive is the most healthy style to use to communicate.

[Nat]

Heard this today - liked it - thought it might apply to sone stuff here. It sure applies to me.

-----


How We Hold Our Thoughts

More important than the kind of thoughts we have
is how we hold thoughts,
how we relate to them:

in the way we're attached,
we cling,
we resist things,
the way we are pushed around by things,
troubled by things

have a lot to do with how we hold our thoughts and ideas.

We have
what's going on,
ideas of who we are

if we can learn to hold our way of thinking very lightly
then it's easier to have the experience of being porous
as opposed to having a wall
or something solid
that the world hits when it encounters us.

When someone says something
or does something
and it hits us -

if we're holding tightly to some idea,
holding tight to some concept,
some story,
some opinion,
some world of thinking -

then that tightness,
that holding,
is often the thing that the world encounters and strikes.

Sometimes it meets with hard resistence
and sometimes we get knocked over.
Sometimes if the holding is kind of tenuous,
we can feel vulnerable
because we're kind of holding,
we're kind of not,
we're kind of open,
we're kind of not.
We're not quite ready to let go,
but we're not quite holding on either.

It's nice to consider that there's another way to be -
to hold thoughts so lightly that you're porous.
If somebody says something
it's almost like it goes right through you.
It doesn't stick anywhere,
doesn't hit anything,
doesn't get stuck by anything,
there's no hooks inside us,
no buttons inside us that get pushed.

So the idea is to be porous
and let things come through and move out.
They can still have an impact,
we can still be emotionally moved by things,
but the emotional response is also moved through freely, openly.
We don't hold onto it.

It's important to look
at how you're holding your thoughts.
Are you riding them really close?
Are you giving them a lot of authority?
Do you believe your thoughts are who you really are?
Do you believe every thought you've believed?
Are you judging your thoughts a lot?
How do you relate to thoughts
and can you loosen the grip of thoughts?

Thoughts can come and go,
they can be good thoughts,
they can be bad thoughts,
but if we hold them lightly
then it's easier to be relaxed about what happens around us.

- Gil Fronsdal - Audio Dharma podcast

[Just_G]

I emailed the Serenity now link to a friend of mine....because we have had discussions along this line before. She emailed me back and asked which type of communication she felt I used and what kind I thought she used.

When I messaged her back, I said I see myself as a passive communicator and her as an aggressive communicator. Shit hit the fan! I didn't say that ALL of the things that describe that type of communication described her, yet she proceeded to tell me that if she is ANY of the things on that list to me, that I don't need her in my life. WTF?!

She also proceeded to ask me which she was; verbally or physically abusive towards me. I said neither....that is not one of the things I thought fit her that was under the "aggressive communication" list.

Now, she is pissed and offended. I thought that sharing the link with her would be a great topic of conversation for us to engage in. Guess not.

I don't know if I should try to discuss this any more with her or just let it go and let her be pissed. This is one of those times when I feel like I should not have said anything, but then I would have been being passive instead of trying to discuss something I thought we could talk about without something like this happening.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Just_G

I emailed the Serenity now link to a friend of mine....because we have had discussions along this line before. She emailed me back and asked which type of communication she felt I used and what kind I thought she used.

When I messaged her back, I said I see myself as a passive communicator and her as an aggressive communicator. Shit hit the fan! I didn't say that ALL of the things that describe that type of communication described her, yet she proceeded to tell me that if she is ANY of the things on that list to me, that I don't need her in my life. WTF?!

She also proceeded to ask me which she was; verbally or physically abusive towards me. I said neither....that is not one of the things I thought fit her that was under the "aggressive communication" list.

Now, she is pissed and offended. I thought that sharing the link with her would be a great topic of conversation for us to engage in. Guess not.

I don't know if I should try to discuss this any more with her or just let it go and let her be pissed. This is one of those times when I feel like I should not have said anything, but then I would have been being passive instead of trying to discuss something I thought we could talk about without something like this happening.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Perhaps, if something like this should occur in the future, tell your friend what type of communicator YOU think YOU are and ask him/her what they feel is their communication style and then take the conversation from there. Maybe ask how you can be a better communicator with them.

It's very true about the importance of wording something right. I think she heard blame instead of a search for improvement. Defensive tools, ENGAGE! Once those walls come up, the ears close. I know when my feelers get all bent out of shape, everything gets sucked inward and I tend to focus on how hurt I am and how what so and so said made me feel. I'm not concerned at that point about the other person's feelings or intent. At least not until after I've thought things through a bit.

At this point, I'd let her cool off for a little while. Not too long. Maybe email or write her and say that you didn't mean to sound accusatory, but were looking to learn how to communicate with her better. Maybe she'll be more open to discuss it then.

Good luck!

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Just_G

I emailed the Serenity now link to a friend of mine....because we have had discussions along this line before. She emailed me back and asked which type of communication she felt I used and what kind I thought she used.

When I messaged her back, I said I see myself as a passive communicator and her as an aggressive communicator. Shit hit the fan! I didn't say that ALL of the things that describe that type of communication described her, yet she proceeded to tell me that if she is ANY of the things on that list to me, that I don't need her in my life. WTF?!

She also proceeded to ask me which she was; verbally or physically abusive towards me. I said neither....that is not one of the things I thought fit her that was under the "aggressive communication" list.

Now, she is pissed and offended. I thought that sharing the link with her would be a great topic of conversation for us to engage in. Guess not.

I don't know if I should try to discuss this any more with her or just let it go and let her be pissed. This is one of those times when I feel like I should not have said anything, but then I would have been being passive instead of trying to discuss something I thought we could talk about without something like this happening.

This is the primary challenge that I have in communicating with aggressive communicators...because, in my experience, they don't hear feedback as feedback and a topic for discussion...but as criticism or an attack that they must defend against.

I think Gemme's advice is good...and I hope it works for you.

For me, the longer I live, the more tired I am of tip-toeing around aggressive communicators while they are stomping all over me. I prefer to spend my time with those who will really have a discussion.

These days...I tend to say "I intended this as something we could talk about...not as an attack on you. When and if you want to talk...I'd be happy to." And then I walk away (physically and/or emotionally).

It isn't the best technique, I know...but at this point it's all I can do.

Best of luck.

[Just_G]

I kind of did just that. I mentioned that I brought it up as a discussion topic and that I was not saying she IS aggressive, but that the way she communicates in conversations is more like what is described by that link for aggressive communication. We have talked about the aggressive communication thing before; like the fact she was in debate club in highschool and sometimes that is how she approaches some conversations....in a "I am going to tell you what I think, you can say what you want, but it's not gonna matter" kind of way.

I think I need some time to catch my breath. I do NOT like confrontation. I like to actually TALK, and not get all worked up til my chest is pounding.

Thank you both for your input....I really do take to heart what you have said!

[Nat]

It sounds like you stumbled across a source of shame for her. If somebody told me I was an aggressive communicator, I would be all ears and want to know more. Or maybe she was being mean to you.