Being female within Butch

[Birch]

I guess I will give it a shot...

I guess what hits me like ascot was asking is when someone uses my real first name. I have had the same nickname forever...my pay stubs have it...bank stuff uses it and so on..
Every now and again I am shocked to hear the name.....via voice message or just something new in my life. In a waiting room and my name is called and the confusion and looks when I get up as THAT person.
The shock is not oh I am a woman...it's more...that's me?....in a general sense. It might just be seeing others reactions. That they are not aware of butches in general...which I completely don't get. Hopefully those moments open eyes and people in general are more aware.

I think every human is amazing in their own skin.

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Ascot

Kobi, you say that you think yourself atypical (or did you mean to type "a typical"?) because you like and embrace your femaleness. At least that's how I read what you wrote. I think your are, in fact, in the majority. I neither dislike nor disavow mine. I wasn't asking about certain products enhancing, complimenting or detracting from anything. More, I was speaking to what one experiences when faced with choices that remind, reinforce, reiterate etc., particularly if one isn't as inclined to think about their femaleness all the time because for whatever reason it isn't in the forefront of their mind. I too am partial to women who want a female partner; it's pretty much my own definition of lesbianism. Good luck with the Kate Spade bag, lol.

I meant atypical female/woman as in not a typical female/woman but still a proud female/woman very much aware of my sex all the time.

Ironically, it was the butch-femme community that made me more conscious of my femaleness, how important it was to who I am, and how important it was to me to be seen as such.

On the one hand, because I am not a femme, it feels like I am seen as something other than a female/woman. Along with that, it feels like there are assumptions and presumptions made about my having issues with being female, issues with my female body, and issues with boundaries because of my femaleness.

On the other hand, butches welcome me as a "guy", one of the "boys", or a "bro". I understand it is a form of solidarity and acceptance. Yet, it feels like this ignores my femaleness or turns it into something else.

Different things work for different people. Being a female and a woman is who I am. Being seen by others as a female and a woman is like a wow moment for me.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

I have heard people identify with their sex but not with their gender in that they understand themselves as female but don't feel like a woman. They see themselves as one of the guys and talk about their butch brothers and such. I have also heard people who easily identify as female and as a woman albeit a masculine one. They don't embrace their masculinity as being necessarily male and don't see themselves as a dude. They are comfortable with being a woman and believe they just do woman differently and that's only because of society's rigid definition of how being a woman looks.

I guess I am a bit of a hybrid. I always identify with and am aware of my sex and gender. I am happy and proud to be a woman and to be female. I also don't mind being seen as one of the guys. I don't like male pronouns only because it feels erasing. I am a she and hanging on to my femininity has been a struggle for as long as I can remember. It always feels like people push you into choosing sides. Either you are male or you are female. If you present as masculine you need to turn in your female card at the door. I am a masculine woman but I'm not a guy. Yet I'm not uncomfortable being very masculine. It is who and how I am.

Ascot, you mention your presentation as decidedly masculine of center. I guess if center is a neutral presentation and one side is feminine and the other masculine then I too am decidedly masculine of center.

But I think it is difficult to tease masculinity away from male and femininity from female. I try to do it by identifying my masculinity as being female masculinity which I see as markedly different from the male variety. However society is not really capable of separating masculinity from male thus the hostility and hatred a masculine woman can experience from some people by just simply being. Often I'm initially seen as male but upon further examination something about me sounds an alarm, I don't know perhaps it's my breasts , but something gives me away as a usurper, a pretender. And that makes some people very angry. They act as though I am trying to fool them into believing I am a man, which is pretty much the last thing I am trying to do.

Yet I can't deny I do enjoy and identify with much of what is considered male. If I just simply walked like a guy for example I could put it down to an issue with my mobility. But it's much more than that. So for lack of a better word to explain myself I say masculine but i put the qualifier female in front to separate myself from man/male. But I do enjoy being one of the guys, somebody's butch brother and indulging in the occasional boy's night out. In that way it would be easy for me to say I see myself as female but I don't identity as being a woman...

...except of course I do. When I was younger how I would to try to explain these contradictions was to blame the confusion on society's definition of a woman. And I believed I could open up this definition to allow for me, I just had to keep pushing against the boundaries. I don't feel I need to open up the definition of what it means to be a woman to include me anymore. I believe it is both impossible and unnecessary because I am a woman. That is not open for debate, although you might think it could be to hear how society decides what my masculine appearance means. Regardless of what society thinks, I am a woman and I don't need to change or open the definition to include me. It already includes me and it always has. Which is why I have decided to stop acting like I need to change something about what it means to be a woman to allow for the likes of me. It already does allow for me since I AM indeed a woman. To behave as though something about woman needs to change for me to be one is just buying into society's gender insanity. What needs to change is society's gender insanity. And what I would need to do is change society's belief that woman does not include the likes of me. And that is a fool's game. I don't need permission to be a woman. I am a woman. So I will just reach out and take that definition thank you very much. I can't change the world by getting caught up in it's delusions.

I see it kind of like insisting I am a dancer to a group of dancers whose dance is defined by moving around gracefully in step with each other and in sync with the music, when my dance consists of my jumping all around while gesturing wildly and listening intently to music only I can hear. This group of dancers would feel justified in the belief that I am not a dancer. I would be hard pressed to convince them otherwise. This might not feel good to hear but the real tragedy would be if I let them convince me not to dance or if I spent my life trying to get them to see the merit in my dancing. Better that I just continue to move to the beat of my own drummer dancing in my own way and finding others who hear my music and joining with them in our own expression of what it means to be a dancer.

I have always looked masculine. It's in the way that I walk, talk, or interact with the world around me. I don't chose it, I certainly don't encourage it, neither do I discourage it. It just is. I haven't tried to pump it up or tone it down. I may have a bit of body dysmorphia although as I age i don't find it quite as distressing as it used to be. It's always been that what I see in the mirror does not reflect my idea of who I am. But I imagine a lot of people can say that for a variety of reasons. When I get all duded up and look in the mirror it is always a tad jarring. I'm like oh ya, breasts, damn what are they doing there, spoils the whole look. So perhaps in that way I am consistently surprised by being a woman. But I never forget I am a woman and female and damn happy to be so. I think the surprise comes when i am forced to confront how my idea of who and what a woman is differs greatly from what society has deemed a woman to be. Then I am confused and uncomfortable because that is not who I am.

I don't know it seems like the more words I use the less clear I am.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Birch

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

I think this is good to highlight. A lot of butches will buy all male products when it isn't the right choice for their bodies, especially vitamins, which will not meet their body's needs.

Until I went on testosterone (very recently), I always bought "women's shampoo". Women's shampoos are created for cleaning hair that is grown from an estrogen based hormone system. It has nothing to do with one's sex/gender identity.

If people are uncomfortable buying body products whose ingredients are influenced by the person's sex (which not all "womens" and "mens" products are), they should consider buying unisex products. My body lotion, for example, has been "for all bodies". My face lotion has always been a "woman's" face lotion (not that I have always been good about using it!).

I know I am continuing something that may be a bit off topic, but I have never seen this discussed on BFP and I think it is important for people to know/note.

[Ascot]

I only have a minute right now, but I want to express my appreciation for how this thread is going. There has been wonderful input and insight and no one's been contentious. Regarding what some might consider veering off topic, what's a little tangentiality between friends? Viva la evolution.

[ProfPacker]

it always amazes that you get what you need when you need it. Miss Tick spoke of many of my feelings. However as many know I have discovered and allowed my more masculine side to emerge and yet still feel like a female and a woman. I do feel the woman part reciding as I feel more butch but I like to embrace all parts of myself. I do feel that at times I love how I have evolved as butch in dress and demeanor and feeling. The world sees me as a woman and my kids see me as a woman although I feel more female than woman.

However, there are times that I feel between two worlds. The world that knew me before my change in my sense of self and the world that knows me as I change.

I have to admit and this is hard that when I am id'd as I have been as someone's bf I am both excited by it and confused by it and my feeling. It is about gender not sex. I don't know where this is going but this thread is very good for me.

[Ascot]

It certainly wasn't my intent to let this thread languish. Darn that pesky thing called life getting in the way!

It's funny how things go. The other day I was shopping and as I was perusing the shampoo (I change it up fairly regularly) this thread crossed my mind. Prior to starting it, I'd never once given any thought to whether what I washed my hair with was created for someone with an estrogen based physiology. I've most often made my choice based on the fragrance of it. I appreciated that I'd been given that food for thought.

What I've most been thinking about is the masculinity vs. male idea;lately I've been taking a much closer look at it. As someone said, Miss Tick I think, it can be quite difficult sifting one from the other. Societally. there is most often little if any difference between the constructs. I will readily admit that within my ideal butch/femme framework, there are elements of the heteronormative paradigm that appeal to me greatly. A large part of that appeal is the perversion of it that exists because there are two women in the dynamic; me, the masculine half who adores and revels in the glorious femininity of the other half even as she is enamored of and excited by my masculinity. It may well happen that some of our responsibilities break down along stereotypical gender lines and I love that, when I have one, my partner appreciates that I'm still very much female. There are particular contexts in which I find being called Sir incredibly erotic. (The grocery store is not one of them) I wear men's clothes, I take up space, I am unapologetic about my assertive energy. To many who don't know any better, I'm sure these traits and many more would have them thinking I'm "the man" in the relationship. Sometimes I want to rail against such ignorance, but the fact is, most of the time I'm fine with it. I get off on it and play with it on occasion. I don't care what it looks like to anyone from the outside. Still, I've not once ever harbored a desire to truly be male. I enjoy straddling that line, twisting it, blurring it, but I don't ever wish to be completely on the other side of it. As far as I'm concerned, being Butch is the best of all possible worlds for me. I get to be as masculine as suits me without having to pick up some of the baggage that this world can put on men. I also don't feel as though I'm missing out on anything because I'm not granted whatever perceived benefits come with "male privilege".

[TruTexan]

I love being the butch that I am and that equates to straddling and blurring the lines for me as well. I have never wanted to be male or a man. I love being the woman that I am, strong minded, assertive, even aggressive. I too am often seen as "the man" in the relationship, even though that isn't true. I don't even bother correcting people anymore, it doesn't bother me what they think, it's what *I* think that matters and how *I* feel about who I am. And with that, I Love Who I Am and That Happens to be a Female , a Woman, and Butch.

The ONLY thing that bothers me is how butches are treated within our own community, the lesbian community. for those that don't understand us and what it means to be butch, that we don't want to be a man. I've heard it time and time again said to me and to femme friends that date butches ..."If you want to be a man, get a sex change" and "If you want a man, then why not just be with one". That just curles my stomach into knots and makes me step up and speak up. Thank goodness I haven't heard that much in my life though. But the times that I have, it got pretty heated during an argument that ensued over what was said.

[Ascot]

That sucks, Tru, what you've experienced. Even trying hard to recall, I cannot remember one instance wherein I've been the recipient of any butch backlash within the lesbian community. I was surprised and disappointed when you said you have. Maybe, because the folks I tend to associate with most are at least BDSM leaning, there is more openness? I don't ever face denigration of any sort. I don't generally in my life beyond the community, either. Yeah, sure, as I mentioned in my Butch Visibility thread, there's that one motherfucker at the locally owned hardware store and even he's starting to mellow a tad. It's been a long while, but I'm wearing him down.

I mean no disrespect to any of my brethren nor am I intentionally inviting scorn when I say that it's definitely the case that some butches have a major chip on their shoulder. I know I do about certain things from time to time, but it's never connected to how I make my Butch way in the world. I'm sure mine all have to do with things I'm not so keen on in myself. Likely, probably even, the chips are not unwarranted. A chip, wariness, reticence, discomfort in ones' skin, accessibility, trust, easygoingness, you name it...all of these things, I believe, emit vibrations/energy/some message that others react to subconsciously. I will talk with anyone, and it never crosses my mind to wonder what their feelings are regarding my butchness. (I'm talking about the public at large. I often think about what Femmes think and feel in proximity to my butchness) It's not something on me. It's in me. It is me. I knew I was queer when I was a little kid. And, while I didn't have the vernacular to label myself Butch, I knew myself to be not at all girly. It's never been a separate part of my identity. I'm meandering. I wonder if butches who embraced that aspect of themselves later in their journey and who might not yet feel quite so settled into it are also those who most get less than positive treatment? Some people are just asshats and butchness has nothing to do with it. Back to the chip thing. If you've had a lot of bad shit happen to you specifically because you're Butch, it makes sense that you might be on the defensive a lot of the time. I've talked about shouldering it. About how by being butch I'm outing myself every time I leave the house. I like that. I like that as I go about my day I hope at least one stranger who interacted me had the thought, "Yeah, she's definitely a lesbian, and she's friendly and funny and just like everybody else. Huh." I think it must be dreadful to assume that people are going to react negatively to your butchness. My shoulders tighten just imagining it. I'm not sure where I'm going with this...

Another thing I think would be fun and interesting to talk about are those traits/passions/hobbies we might possess or engage in that are considered decidedly more feminine by most everyone. Do you think, "Because I'm Butch, everything I do is Butch!" or are you more like me and from time to time catch yourself thinking, "Hmm, that was pretty girly."? There is nothing negative for me in such thinking, but there is definite amusement. A straight female friend is getting married in August, and the last time we got together for lunch, she asked if afterward I would help her shop for necklaces for her bridesmaids. She has a particular color scheme in mind, but otherwise the style is wide open. I think she's going to base her choices on the bridesmaids' personalities which I think is cool. So there I am, prowling vintage shops, combing through piles of jewelry, offering commentary. It was a lot of fun and felt pretty girly. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. That "I'm doing something girly" sensation...it's hard to describe. It's amusing as I said, and strange though it might seem, in a way it's reaffirming of my butchness. The dichotomy, maybe? Mentally it kind of feels like playing dress up. Sometimes it's just fun to flounce.

[BullDog]

I haven't received bad treatment in lesbian communities either, and I have lived in some of the most lesbian-centric places in the U.S. (Santa Cruz, CA; Ithaca, NY; Portland, OR and now near Northhampton, MA). All those places have lots and lots of lesbians. I've been to tons of lesbian events and been out with butch friends and seen other butches around and observed how people have been treated for over 30 years. So I do think my experience does count for something and has a lot of data backing it up. I just haven't seen lots of bad treatment of butches by lesbians.

However, I have seen lesbians be suspect of femmes, thinking they are straight women in the wrong place. That I have seen on numerous occasions.

(Lots of butches and femmes are also lesbians, I just separated it in the above to make it easier to read.)

So I am sorry for any butches who have received poor treatment from lesbians, but there are assholes in every group of people.

I do experience random homophobia from time to time, but for the most part I am treated fine. And then sometimes people are just rude and has nothing to do with me being a butch or dyke. It happens to everyone.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Ascot

...

It's not something on me. It's in me. It is me.

...

That, my friend, perfectly describes my perception of all that's glorious about butches.

I apologise to any and all if I'm being invasive by commenting here, but I felt a need to highlight that quote.

[TruTexan]

I haven't had a lot of ill things said towards me, just some by asshats in the community and they happened to be the same ones that said the same thing to my friends I was with, as I stated in my last post.I just wanted to clarify that it was androgenous lesbians that said the things they said for whatever reason.I guess they didn't like the label thing, I dunno and I don't care. There are just bad apples in the bowl ya know, no matter what community you're in. I didn't mean to make it appear that there were LOTS Of them doing that. It's happened, I moved on since then, I don't harbor ill will towards them, and I've grown from it. I pretty much have known all my years as being lesbian, since I was 16 or 17 when I finally came out that I was Butch. I have always felt comfortable with that. I don't carry a chip on my shoulder for it happening, but I'm sure there are some that might out there. I can only speak for myself, and no chip here for it.
I've done things with women that some might consider girly, like helping them clothes shop for what looks good on them, jewelry, hell I even shop in the womens section for my underwear and bras at Jockey store. I am not girly by any means, but it doesn't bother me to do things they may seem that way. Doesn't affect who I am as a butch or my butchness. I just move along through life doing stuff I like to do, most of the time don't even think about it.
Although most of my jobs have been male oriented working jobs, doesn't make me male either. I'm me, the best me that can be, and I"m good with ME doing and making the butch that I am the way I DO BUTCH.
Every butch does butch differently for themselves. What one butch does , another might not do. To each butch their own butchness the way They Do butch. Some paint their toe nails and some don't. some shave their legs and underarms, some don't. Some wear women's clothing and/or underwear, some don't. Who am I to judge how another butch does butch, so to each their own way.

[Ascot]

Thank you, Cheryl. It was lovely of you to say that. I'm glad you found that idea so resonant. Your participation is certainly far from invasive. By all means, please continue if you wish.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

I mean no disrespect to any of my brethren nor am I intentionally inviting scorn when I say that it's definitely the case that some butches have a major chip on their shoulder... A chip, wariness, reticence, discomfort in ones' skin, accessibility, trust, easygoingness, you name it...all of these things, I believe, emit vibrations/energy/some message that others react to subconsciously. I will talk with anyone, and it never crosses my mind to wonder what their feelings are regarding my butchness... I wonder if butches who embraced that aspect of themselves later in their journey and who might not yet feel quite so settled into it are also those who most get less than positive treatment? ... If you've had a lot of bad shit happen to you specifically because you're Butch, it makes sense that you might be on the defensive a lot of the time.

I don't think I have a major chip or even a minor one on my shoulder. I am comfortable in my skin and I don't walk through the world wary and reticent. And while I don't know what vibrations i may be emitting that other's react to subconsciously, my expectation is not that they will have a negative reaction to my butchness. I will also talk with anyone. I did not embrace my butchness late in my journey and I am quite settled into it. That being said, I have over the years experienced some extremely negative reactions to my butchness. However, it certainly isn't the norm. It isn't my everyday experience with the world. Everyone I meet isn't trying to beat the crap out of me. But some people have. And some have hurt me badly enough that I take measures to not let it happen again. I really don't think I did anything to deserve what happened to me. I don't think it was my fault due to a chip on my shoulder or not being comfortable in my skin or really anything at all that I did except to carry masculinity in a female body unapologetically. I don't think I was defensive nor am I now, but I do try to be aware of what is going on around me and i listen to my gut. I am not looking for trouble but neither am I blissfully unaware of what can happen when a couple of people decide they don't like my looks. Shit happens, but I'm not to blame for it. However I am responsible for my own safety and my ultimate goal is always to avoid getting hurt whenever possible.

[Tuff Stuff]

Yeah,I can relate to alot of these post.I always wear mens clothes,undies,socks ect.As a kid i'd wear boys clothes "shrug".Never had a problem buying feminine nappies,it was like a diaper to me.
I never wore make-up are used womens beauty products,although I do see myself as a woman/a female.
I seem to want the latest men products that I see in magazines or on tv.
I like being in my skin,I know what I am and who I am blah blah blah.

Interesting thread.

[Celtglen]

I have to say that the years (10) I spent in technology were the worst for me being an out Butch Dyke; it got worse when Seattlegf and I got together and I put some framed pictures of us on my desk.
Jealousy is a green monster.

Before those years I ran my own businesses (photography and video production, landscaping and auto repair) so what I wore or who I was fucking never was an issue. My clothing has always been mens clothing - I was 6' by the time I was in High School.

As far as the feminine products (bras included) I have always had an issue - the bras were and still are uncomfortable especially when repairing cars - I am rather well 'endowed' and took to not wearing a bra so I could flop my girls off to my arm pits so I would shimmy under cars - otherwise it were a lost cause.

In my 30s I wore a bit of lipgloss and bought L'oreal, designer mens clothing and wore Channel #5. Once I got sick (38) and the bucks stopped coming in those fell by the wayside.

In my instance, Butch is what I am by society's definition (strait and queer), I have reclaimed the word Dyke, taken it back from Society and have made it my own and a positive description -- my strait friends cannot figure that out and they still say I shouldn't say that about myself...which makes me cringe because we have an incredible number of Dykes of Distinction in history.

Hygiene products; I buy no aluminum Tom's of Vermont, L'oreal Blue for greying hair (why look at the sparkle!) and Dial mountain fresh because I love the Mtns.

I stopped bleeding a decade ago (YAY!) but I hated every cycle for 30 years and the bulky nappies and impossible Tampons of "old"; be happy someone finally got them right--you youngens have no idea how it felt to ride a horse w/o a saddle every frickin month!

Celtglen

[Ascot]

I had a funny moment yesterday that made this thread come to mind.

My buddy Jake has two young sons, one 4 and the other a cutie pie of 2. I met them for the first time yesterday when we all got together for lunch. Near the end of our meal, the older little guy leans close to his father and in a stage whisper asks, "Is she a dad?" Jake and I shared a look and then burst out laughing. I think it was kind of a genius question, full of insight that a lot of adults lack. This wee being seemed fully aware of the fact that I am female, even as I exhibit a degree of masculinity that had him go with 'dad' instead of 'mom'. More to the point, it seemed very much as though that was a completely reasonable and acceptable thing to him.

It gives me hope that perhaps we are finally starting to get to a place of such things truly not mattering. (I'm not entirely certain that 'mattering' is a real word)

[Bèsame*]

I love this story! There is hope 😃

Originally Posted by Ascot

I had a funny moment yesterday that made this thread come to mind.

My buddy Jake has two young sons, one 4 and the other a cutie pie of 2. I met them for the first time yesterday when we all got together for lunch. Near the end of our meal, the older little guy leans close to his father and in a stage whisper asks, "Is she a dad?" Jake and I shared a look and then burst out laughing. I think it was kind of a genius question, full of insight that a lot of adults lack. This wee being seemed fully aware of the fact that I am female, even as I exhibit a degree of masculinity that had him go with 'dad' instead of 'mom'. More to the point, it seemed very much as though that was a completely reasonable and acceptable thing to him.

It gives me hope that perhaps we are finally starting to get to a place of such things truly not mattering. (I'm not entirely certain that 'mattering' is a real word)

[Ascot]

Originally Posted by Bèsame*

I love this story! There is hope 😃

Yeah, I'm definitely beginning to think there is hope. What I didn't say in the previous post on this topic is that after we stopped laughing, I told the little guy "I don't have any kids, so no, I'm not a dad." Neither Jake nor all I felt any need at all to speak to the gender thing.

I cannot remember if I've mentioned this in another post, but a couple summers ago I was at a cookout at a friend's house (a couple consisting of a male and female partner) when out of the blue their three-year-old daughter, who I've known since she was born, started calling me "uncle Lise". She found her way to that all on her own because that's what made sense to her. I've heard her use "she" in reference to me, so I know she knows I'm female, and I love her for coming up with an amalgam that feels right.

[Ascot]

Speaking of vitamins, this irked me. It is no doubt an irrational irk, but it exists nonetheless.

I purchased a different brand of multivitamin (Nature Made Women's Alive!) the other day and got around to taking the first one this morning. My first thought was, "Damn, these are big" and right on the heels of that was, "Are you fucking kidding me?". They are a god awful, wan, lavendery pinkish color. It's a ghastly color. I often wonder how something like this can come to be, because you know that at least a couple people had to agree that that color was a good idea for it to actually happen, right? More than the visual assault, however, is the issue that this company must believe that women want societally dictated feminine colors pervading every aspect of their lives to the degree that even vitamins must fall in line.

I know, I know...first world problems.

It still irks me.